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T8……….the scripture you quoted is inferring (authority) not order of berth, and the word you use as existed is really in the Geek text (existing) a present tense word. brother, (NO) scripture says Jesus Preexisted as any thing before His berth. Only he was (FOREORDAINED) But was (MANIFESTED in our time) or brought into existence, as Peter Said. Please show scripture where it says Man was (created) through Jesus Christ. When the LORD said HE (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created everything , how can you say Jesus did it? If this were true then both the old and the new Testament would have very clearly stated it. T8 the Lord said he did it by Himself and alone brother.
love and peace to you and yours T8………………………………gene
Hi KW,
You ask
“In what way do you believe Jesus has the nature of God? “By the Spirit of God infilling him and leading him.
That Spirit should also produce in us the fruits and gifts that were manifested in the man Jesus.
And those fruits and gifts are of the nature of our God.
Quote (Gene @ April 07 2009,03:54) T8……….the scripture you quoted is inferring (authority) not order of berth, and the word you use as existed is really in the Geek text (existing) a present tense word. brother, (NO) scripture says Jesus Preexisted as any thing before His berth. Only he was (FOREORDAINED) But was (MANIFESTED in our time) or brought into existence, as Peter Said. Please show scripture where it says Man was (created) through Jesus Christ. When the LORD said HE (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created everything , how can you say Jesus did it? If this were true then both the old and the new Testament would have very clearly stated it. T8 the Lord said he did it by Himself and alone brother. love and peace to you and yours T8………………………………gene
You don't seem to be able to grasp that God did it, and through Christ. God still did it. Jesus was the channel by which God did all things.Similarly we see the same thing with salvation. God is the only saviour and yet he saved us through Christ. Christ even said, not my will but your will and he laid his life down.
I think that this answers your objections fairly and I have used references in scripture too in case you think I just made all this up.
Quote (kerwin @ April 07 2009,00:37) T8 wrote: Quote Sure. He existed with God's nature/ in the form of God.
The words you say are correct but I do not know if the spirit behind them is the same as that in the scripture. I ask in hopes of finding out.
In what way do you believe Jesus has the nature of God? Do you believe they are both deities? Do you believe those that believe will also partake in that deity hood? I myself do not believe such as there is only one deity.
I believe Jesus is the image of the invisible God in that he is full of God’s righteousness and holiness and through faith Jesus we too will come to be full of God’s righteousness and holiness.
If you don’t believe either then what do you believe?
I do not believe Jesus was created first because then He would be the first Adam and scripture clearly states he is not. I do believe that Jesus is the first of a new creation while Adam was the first of the old, angels aside.
Galatians 6:14-15(NIV) reads:
Quote May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
And
2 Corinthians 5:17-19(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
First thing Kerwin is that scripture is vague on Christ and his beginnings. It after all says:Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,”.Ephesians 3:4
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,Ephesians 5:32
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.Colossians 2:2
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,So without adding any vain imaginations to what is revealed about him, I believe the following:
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.It is also written that we can partake of divine nature so if we can partake and we are being made into his likeness, then how much more does Christ if he is the prototype and image of God.
Partaking or having divine nature doesn't make anyone God, any more than partaking of the Spirit makes you God.
God is Spirit and he is Divine. He shares his attributes even with us.
T8,
I am going to address only Micah 5:2 of which you quoted just to keep this post brief. I want you to consider something though and that is that the true faith of Judaism and the true faith of Christianity are one and the same and many false teachers claiming to be one or the other roam the earth today. Still when interpreting scripture it best to look at our Jewish heritage and see what their thoughts were. On preexistence there was a line of thought that all souls preexist our birth and I have looked into it. I know of none that singles out the Messiah as preexistent. That at this time appears a tenet introduced later. Micah 5:2 is most likely speaking of traditional Jewish belief about the Messiah which I obtained from this website.
t8 quoted
Quote
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Judaism 101(Tracey R Rich?) wrote:
Quote However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to “the End of Days” (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
Many of those scriptures I quoted speak of pre-existence at face value. Unless they are translated incorrectly or don't really mean what they say, then I cannot in good conscience just write them off with logic that is offered to me outside of scripture.
You also have the following difficulty if Jesus didn't have glory with the Father before the world began. It is as follows. God made all things for and through Christ, yet if he did not exist, then he wasn't going to show up till much later.
So God created Adam and all was good. Adam fell and sin passed to all men. Then supposedly God made a second Adam according to some. He fulfilled that which Adam failed at.
So the question is, if Adam hadn't of sinned and all was good, then where does Jesus come into it. From what I can see in this scenario, he has no room to exist and this makes a mockery of the scriptures that say that God made all things through him and for him.
My view is that Jesus is the first-born of all creation and Adam wasn't the first-born of all creation but among men only.
Another difficulty is that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. A God whom no man has seen or can see. So that means that no one has seen God or the fullness of his glory for all time, till his visible image was supposedly created, 2000 years ago and was seated at his right-hand side. So till then there was no visible way for angels to comprehend the Spirit who is God, except by looking at created things and their glory.
T8……….Your presenting the idea that GOD , did not know Adam would do what He did.. Then how could He know the end from the beginning? God know and intended Adam and Eve to fail so they could become like Him (TO KNOW GOOD and EVIL) it was His purpose all along. Why do you think GOD created us in the FORM of Flesh in the first place, it was appointed for man to die and taste death, all along. Its all part of the learning experience. He know from the beginning that He was going to raise up a Human being the would show all humanity that there was a way to have eternal life and walk in harmony with GOD. He did not take a preexisted perfect Being kill him have him reborn of a woman and then kill Him again. That would show us nothing concerning ourselves. So He brought forth in a human a uniquely born human being and caused Him to walk perfectly on the earth by the Spirit He recieved from GOD the FATHER. His Glory and what he would do was all preordained by GOD Himself. Why don't you address the words of Peter, which show that he was foreordained (BUT) was manifested in our time. There is no point to do it like you and trinitarians think He did , what does that prove to man kind if a already perfect person walked perfectly , It would show is nothing. But if a ordinary human being without any advantages could over come sin in himself by the power of GOD'S Spirit, and live a perfect life pleasing to God the Father, now that would prove a lot to all humanity. T8 Jesus was 100% human with (NO) prier existence. Other then in GOD the Father's Plan from the beginning of creation. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
So what you are proposing Gene is that God created Adam and knew he would fail and so he could then introduce Jesus to replace him (some 2000 years ago – our time), all the while knowing before he created the very first thing that it was all going to be about what would happen 2000 years ago – our time, and that eternity past was about building to this point (around Year 0).
And not only that, but God decided that Adam's replacement would be called 'firstborn of all creation' which is not to be taken literally only in an authoritive sense, while Adam was never called “firstborn of all creation” even though his replacement was for some reason. Even when God created Adam, that was a mere formality because he had his replacement in mind the whole time.
Is this is how you see it, coz it looks rather strange don't you think?
This view also raises another question. Who was the first to come from God, if it wasn't the firstborn of all creation? Who was the literal first born? Would not this being have a very special place in God's plan, and how come we don't know anything about this being (if we exclude Christ and his heritage that is)?
T8….i don't think i am following your reasoning very well. So I will try to answer as best as i can. One thing you and many say that Jesus was FIRST BORN in all CREATION, and that is right He was, problem is does that mean the beginning of (ALL) CREATED things> NO it means Jesus the HUMAN Man was the first born from the DEAD to eternal Life in all of GODS Creation. And also notice it says (BORN) there is only one way a person can be born and thats through a womb of a female. A created being is not a BORN Being. We also have other scriptures that say He was the first born of many brethren . Jesus is also said to be the first (AND) the last, now what does that mean?, Jesus is first raised from the dead and the last to be raised will be Just like Him also. So he is truly the First and the same as the last. T8 we must realize that much scripture is symbolic in nature and does take some thinking about as I know you well know that.
Now in regards to God creating Adam and KNEW He would fail , Yes I do believe GOD Know without a doubt Adam would ultimately chose wrong and fail. If for not other reason ADAM did not Have GOD'S (HOLY SPIRIT) in Him (the Spirit of truth.) He crated man for the specific reason of tasting death., now all this begs and explanation. think about this T8, if GOD could have Just created Adam Perfect and we know He could have , so why didn't He then and why put a something to tempt Him and draw Him into disobedience. And why would He deliberately choose to do what he did , scripture says he was (Not) decieved. If you think about it it was what GOD always Know would Happen and He wanted it to, Because notice right after they did it GOD said LOOK man HAS became as we are to (know) good and evil. God wanted Man Kind to experience both Good and Evil to be more like Him, so it was needful for this to happen. Scripture says GOD knows the end from the beginning right. How else could we come to love the good and Hate the evil, without experiencing it. God wants our minds to understand both good and evil fully. His work is Marvelous to me no one could achieve what He is achieving in Man, a true Father Sons and Daughters relationship Knowing even what He knows, With regards to good and evil effects on life.IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………..gene
T8 wrote:
Quote Many of those scriptures I quoted speak of pre-existence at face value.
If you are to say in the eye of the beholder then I will agree but these scripture are only indirectly addressed to us and we must consider the people they were addressed directly to. In the case of Micah it is the Jewish people of that time which is why I pointed out what the Jews themselves believed. To interpret Micah correctly then you must consider how the Jews of that time would understand the passage. The passage I cited from Judaism 101 also explains how the concept of the Messiah was advanced in the books of Law by mentioning the Last of Days and that the time the tribes of Israel received the Law was considered the ancient times by Jews. The promise of Jesus’ coming has been around for a long time and it can even be argued that when God, who knows all things, saw man’s creation as very good that he was also speaking of Jesus’ coming and the results of that coming.
T8 wrote:
Quote It is as follows. God made all things for and through Christ, yet if he did not exist, then he wasn't going to show up till much later.
In this case I do believe the translators made an error at least in some cases though in others it may be that we just misunderstand the words. When we hear the word “creation” we assume it speaks of the original creation but that is not always true in scripture. I doubt that there is anyone that will disagree that Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation. Thinking along that line I did some research in the New International Version of scripture and posted my finding to you a few posts ago. You commented about it by saying it was vague about Jesus’ origins but you might have misunderstood that I was pointing out, that being that “creation” that is the topic of Collosians 1 may be speaking about the new creation and not the old which has “gone”.
T8 wrote:
Quote My view is that Jesus is the first-born of all creation and Adam wasn't the first-born of all creation but among men only.
The logical conclusion of your view is that Jesus is not a man and yet scripture declares he is a man. The only way I can see to get around that is to say Jesus was not a man and then decided to give up being whatever he was and become a man, that scripture refers as the second Adam. Is that the solution to dilemma you have chosen?
T8 wrote:
Quote Another difficulty is that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Isn’t that what the concept “God with us” is addressing? Isn’t the concept of “God with us” speaking of the Holy Spirit which God placed on Jesus? Isn’t walking by the Spirit a way to reach the true goal of being like God in true righteousness and holiness? Isn’t Jesus like God in true righteousness and holiness? Isn’t it through Jesus that one can walk according to the Spirit?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2009,13:38) Hi KW,
It shows the folly of trusting in logical conclusions.
Do you understand what a logical conclusion is. The logical conclusion of 2 + 2 is 4. If Jesus was created a man and was created before Adam then Adam can not be the first born of of all men and Eve cannot be the mother of all men. Do you think God is irrational? I ask the last because that is certainly what your remark implied.Hi KW,
Jesus was a man.
From the moment of his conception within Mary.
His ancient origins are however entirely another matter.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2009,15:22) Hi KW,
Jesus was a man.
From the moment of his conception within Mary.
His ancient origins are however entirely another matter.
Kerwin wrote to T8Quote The only way I can see to get around that is to say Jesus was not a man and then decided to give up being whatever he was and become a man, that scripture refers as the second Adam. Is that the solution to dilemma you have chosen?
So yes that is the solution you have chosen to the dilemma of Adam being the first man and Jesus being the second Adam.
Hi KW,
Adam means man.
Jesus had to be a man to be able to save us.
To be spirit, soul and a body of flesh made him man by God's definition
But this has nothing to do with his glorious origins which he said he wanted to go back to.He was given greater blessings yet.
He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and took on human nature. i.e., the Word became flesh.
He is now with the Father and he is called the Word of God.
This is written and I choose to believe this.
Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2009,21:19) Kerwin wrote to T8 Quote The only way I can see to get around that is to say Jesus was not a man and then decided to give up being whatever he was and become a man, that scripture refers as the second Adam. Is that the solution to dilemma you have chosen?
So yes that is the solution you have chosen to the dilemma of Adam being the first man and Jesus being the second Adam.
Yes he is the second Adam. He is also the first-born of all creation of which the first Adam wasn't so called. God also created all things through Christ and for him, of which was never said of the the first Adam.
He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and became a man/adam. After he died, he rose from the grave and was resurrected to the highest place in Heaven to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.
So yes, Jesus is the second Adam, but he is obviously so much more than the new Adam judging from scriptures that I have referenced.
After Adam sinned, God sent prophets, and then he sent the greatest one of all. He sent his son into the world.
Adam and Christ are not on the same level. A greater than Adam did the job that Adam was suppose to do.
T8 wrote:
Quote He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and became a man/Adam.
So that is where you sound like you are saying Jesus is a deity and in the Hebrew religion there is only one Deity.
T8 wrote:
Quote He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and took on human nature. i.e., the Word became flesh.
That sounds like a Trinitarian interpretation of Philippians 2:6-8 which was possibly influenced by the polytheism of some early converts. Consider what characteristic of God does God expect his followers to emulate. It is not being a deity but rather to be truly righteous as God is righteous. Isn’t Jesus truly righteous as God is righteous? Isn't that more consistent with God's desires of what “form” means especially since the scripture goes on to say “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant” as such is the actions of a righteous man.
T8 wrote:
Quote After he died, he rose from the grave and was resurrected to the highest place in Heaven to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.
You are mixing scriptures. Do you believe when Jesus asked God to glorify him with the glory he had with God before the world began, John 17:5, that he was asking to be reseated on the throne he vacated to come to Earth? Could it not instead be that Jesus was asking to be glorified even as he was prophesied to be glorified as God is all knowing and so knew the result of creation before creation even occurred?
Kerwin………..you have it right, Jesus was asking for the glory He was Prophesied to have before the world began. He was in GOD'S plan all along. if Not then why does scripture say (BECAUSE) he emptied out his soul unto death (GOD) Has exalted over all His creation. If He already had that, then it would not be (dependent) on His emptying our His soul. As i said before trinitarians and Preexistences have the same mind set, and don't get discouraged by Nicks inability to us His GOD given Brain. Which can not make any (LOGIC) out of scriptures. This is all part of His confusions He refuses to understand things, believing it is not necessary to. Parroting is good enough for the likes of Him. But we are told to study to show ourselves approved by GOD (RIGHTLY) dividing the word of truth> and that does take logical thinking. Those who are being guided by GOD Spirit are looking into the deep things of GOD and seeking what makes sense in the word. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ April 09 2009,05:33) Kerwin………..you have it right, Jesus was asking for the glory He was Prophesied to have before the world began. He was in GOD'S plan all along. if Not then why does scripture say (BECAUSE) he emptied out his soul unto death (GOD) Has exalted over all His creation. If He already had that, then it would not be (dependent) on His emptying our His soul. As i said before trinitarians and Preexistences have the same mind set, and don't get discouraged by Nicks inability to us His GOD given Brain. Which can not make any (LOGIC) out of scriptures. This is all part of His confusions He refuses to understand things, believing it is not necessary to. Parroting is good enough for the likes of Him. But we are told to study to show ourselves approved by GOD (RIGHTLY) dividing the word of truth> and that does take logical thinking. Those who are being guided by GOD Spirit are looking into the deep things of GOD and seeking what makes sense in the word. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Not so fast Bro Gene…
What you reasoned about phillipians can easily be explained another way…how about this…
Philippians 2:7 (New International Version)
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Notice the use of the words “made himself” and “took”
The greek word for “made” is KENOO which means in greek:
-to empty, make empty…or
-to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, falseand “took” in greek is “lambano” which means “to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own”
Both these words are possesive and when used are ALWAYS used in connection with a REAL, PHYSICAL CREATURE…it is NEVER used in connection with a “thought” or “plan” as you put it…
The greek has different words that can be used in this situation…
In order for your explanation to work…a different word would have had to have been used…the word that should be used if we are to follow your reasoning is: GINOMAI….which means
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stageSo as we can see the greek has words that describe something that “comes into existence” and it has words for that are to be used when describing something that took the form of something else…which is why you see the word
“kenoo” used instead of “ginomai”
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