Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………ALL TRINITARIANS believe Jesus PREEXISTED or they could not believe in the trinity , But they have only suppositions , and speculations, and assumptions but, not real proof . We know the LORD created everything (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) as scripture (PLAINLY SAYS).

Good to see you back posting Brother, Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[gollamudi]

Thanks brother Gene,
I agree with you on that post of yours. In these days I am after much reading of books on Incarnation myth and Jesus' true nature. I am fully knowing that Jesus was human and is now glorified human sitting on the right side of God the Father. God and Jesus are two different beings one is the only true God and other is the true image of that one God who is invisible.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Why has the human nature of Jesus caused you deny so much of what he said about his origins?

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……..You have it right, the Spirit of GOD has correctly shown you the truth, Sell it not. Brother, We only have (ONE) True GOD who created all things (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) as HE Said He did. The Father is the only creator and He gives His Glory to (NO) MAN. His Glory is that He alone created all things, both in heaven and in the earth.

love and peace to you and yours……………………………………gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2009,08:22)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2009,22:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work. So true t8, It not only is something that is not wise to encourage as you say but we are told to expose that which is false. We better have a good defense if we are going to do that and be led by the Holy Spirit as we hear Him speak to us and guide us.  If He isn't speaking to us we would do better to not speak at all. Kathi

Good advice.

[Proclaimer]

Philippians 2:5-7    
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

I believe this scripture and obviously not all here believe it.

The glory still goes to God because God created all things through Christ and for him. Jesus said I only do and say as the Father does and speaks. So all glory to God and still we can believe that he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and emptied himself and came here.

I don't have a contradiction here to contend with as Gene and GM must have.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………Check out the word (Being) That could mean past tense and you will find it say Who EXISTING Present tense in the Form of GOD (NOW) does not try to rob God by making Himself (EQUAL) with Him as many try to.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Gene,
Even Adam was made in the form and image of God. Jesus is not the first Adam but Last(second) Adam. Natural is always first not the the spiritual as often claimed by pre-existence believers and Trinitarians.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[Cindy]

Let us go back to preexsisting.
Col. 1 : 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth.
…..all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 18
Peace and Love Irene

[Cindy]

Quote (t8 @ April 03 2009,11:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2009,08:22) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2009,22:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work. So true t8, It not only is something that is not wise to encourage as you say but we are told to expose that which is false. We better have a good defense if we are going to do that and be led by the Holy Spirit as we hear Him speak to us and guide us.  If He isn't speaking to us we would do better to not speak at all. Kathi Good advice.

I still having problems, so I agree with t8
Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

I have some questions as regards Colossians1:15

Colossians 1:15(KJV) reads:

Quote

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

1)What does image of the invisible God mean?
2)What does firstborn of every creature mean?

[Proclaimer]

We are made in the image of God, so we were suppose to be like God.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God. That means he is like God, and we can see him. In fact he is so like him that he represents the fullness of God.

Let's face it. God is way beyond us. You can't go up to him and shake his hand or give him a game of snooker. But Jesus Christ is our brother. We can do things with him.

God is a Spirit. He exists inside and even outside his own creation. He is beyond anything we can imagine.

[Proclaimer]

A more simpler way to look at it Kerwin, is that by saying that Jesus is the image of God, you are saying that he is not the source, but that he is the reflection of that source.

[kerwin]

T8 wrote:

Quote

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. That means he is like God, and we can see him. In fact he is so like him that he represents the fullness of God.

Could you please be a little more specific in saying how Jesus is like God? Thank you.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….Are we not also created in His image as Jesus is. Are we not also to grow unto the (FULL) Measure of Christ. Where is the difference at that you and other proclaim. Like Kerwin said He had to be a super being or a demigod, or angle of some kind, before He came to earth right? Please explain it to us then. IMO

love to you and yours …………………………………gene

[gollamudi]

Hi brother T8,
I appreciate your both posts above on the image of God. Yes if Adam and Jesus were the images of God certainly in Christ Jesus we will be made in the true image of God. But I want to ask you; can we make Jesus another God/God-being as often claimed by many Trinitarians and pre-existence believers here? If so he could not be our brother at all and we deviate from biblical Monotheism.

Please think on these lines.
Peace to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 06 2009,19:52)

Hi brother T8, I appreciate your both posts above on the image of God. Yes if Adam and Jesus were the images of God certainly in Christ Jesus we will be made in the true image of God. But I want to ask you; can we make Jesus another God/God-being as often claimed by many Trinitarians and pre-existence believers here? If so he could not be our brother at all and we deviate from biblical Monotheism. Please think on these lines. Peace to you Adam

Golly, I believe your predefined doctrine is demonstrating some bias here.

If Jesus was before all things and God created all things through him, that doesn't make him God.

Think about it.

God had to of created somebody first. Why is that somebody God as well? If that makes that somebody God, then you must believe in 2 Gods because somebody had to be the first.

I can accept what you said about Trinitarians because this is what they teach. But pre-existence doesn't demand that Jesus is God. On the contrary, if he came from God, it is an acknowledgement that he cannot be the God he came from.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene @ April 05 2009,15:49)

T8……….Are we not also created in His image as Jesus is. Are we not also to grow unto the (FULL) Measure of Christ. Where is the difference at that you and other proclaim. Like Kerwin said He had to be a super being or a demigod, or angle of some kind, before He came to earth right? Please explain it to us then. IMO love to you and yours …………………………………gene

Gene. Jesus is the fullness of deity in bodily form. We grow into the fullness of Christ. Couple that with the following scripture, and a picture emerges.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Notice the order:

God > Christ > Man > Woman.

We also know that the woman came from man, and man was created through Christ, and that God is the Father over all.

Christ is the bridegroom. He is one and we who are many are one bride. Is the bride greater than the bridegroom in this scenario? Remember how you answer, because we are many and he is one.

Likewise, it is written that we can sit with Christ on his throne, and it is also written that Jesus sits with his Father on his throne.

Can you see the pattern of inheritance here?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2009,09:46)

T8 wrote: Quote Jesus is the image of the invisible God. That means he is like God, and we can see him. In fact he is so like him that he represents the fullness of God. Could you please be a little more specific in saying how Jesus is like God?  Thank you.

Sure. He existed with God's nature/ in the form of God.

He then emptied himself and partook of human nature, and even humbling himself further by being a servant and by suffering. He died and God raised him to the highest place, at the right hand of God. He is now with the Father's presence with the glory he had with God before the world began.

As a result of this, our sins are forgiven and we can partake of divine nature.

[kerwin]

T8 wrote:

Quote

Sure. He existed with God's nature/ in the form of God.

The words you say are correct but I do not know if the spirit behind them is the same as that in the scripture.  I ask in hopes of finding out.  

In what way do you believe Jesus has the nature of God?  Do you believe they are both deities?  Do you believe those that believe will also partake in that deity hood?  I myself do not believe such as there is only one deity.

I believe Jesus is the image of the invisible God in that he is full of God’s righteousness and holiness and through faith Jesus we too will come to be full of God’s righteousness and holiness.

If you don’t believe either then what do you believe?

I do not believe Jesus was created first because then He would be the first Adam and scripture clearly states he is not.   I do believe that Jesus is the first of a new creation while Adam was the first of the old, angels aside.

Galatians 6:14-15(NIV) reads:

Quote

May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

And

2 Corinthians 5:17-19(NIV) reads:

Quote

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

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