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Quote (t8 @ Feb. 19 2009,18:28) Hi Marty. Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”. He was saying that he existed before Abraham. I am means to exist. He is the root and offspring of David.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.So to God be glory through Jesus Christ before all ages.
Q: If Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation, who was?
Hi t8:Jesus did exist in the heart of the Father. And God knew at the precise time he would conceive him in the womb of Mary. It is not like you and I sowing our seed. Jesus said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad”.
As for Jesus being the root and the offspring of David, the definition is as follows:
Quote Definition:
1.a root
2.that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot
3.metaph. offspring, progenyAnd so, I'll leave it to you to determine what it means in this scripture. It could just read I am a descendant and the offspring of David.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.This is explained by the following verse:
Quote Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him Again, he existed in the heart of the Father before he brought the world into existence.
Then relative to the following verse and your comment:
Quote Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.So to God be glory through Jesus Christ before all ages
This was manifest when Jesus was resurrected from the dead and stated that “all power and authority has been given unto me in heaven and in earth”. This day was forseen by God before he brought the world into existence.
You ask:
Quote Q: If Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation, who was? I guess that would be Cain, but Jesus was the firstborn of God of all creation.
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Quote Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ,
MartyHi t8:
One other scripture comes to mind following the logic of the last two scriptures that I posted in my foregoing post to you:
Quote Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.God Bless
To All…………All who glorify Jesus to the same Glory as the Father by giving him some superhuman preexistence and saying Jesus created everything in existence and etc, can not even begin to relate with Him on a human level at all, because in their minds they have separated Him from the personal identity as Martian brought out in a earlier post. All the overcoming Jesus did becomes useless because He have a superpower existence before he came into beings Here. You don't come out and say it but Jesus HAS become your GOD. This is nothing more then IDOLATRY and it turns Jesus in to a man of Sin, Who Because you have replaced GOD the Father with Jesus the Man. Read 2Thes , this is talking about turning (JESUS) into a GOD, He who sits in the temple of GOD and is Being Displayed as GOD. Is the false image of Jesus Created By the Apostate Church and the preexistence ideologies go hand and hand with the teaching. Some Here deny Jesus as a GOD, but out of the other side of their mouths say He created everything that exists, When Scripture (PLAINLY SAYS) GOD created (EVERYTHING) BY (HIMSELF) That means no one was there But He HIMSELF. T8 and Nick and some other try to dance around that by saying GOD did it but through Jesus , If that were true then GOD did not do it (ALONE) Like HE said He did.
peace……………to all……………………gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2009,00:38)
Why didn’t the writers of the NT scriptures who were aware that YHWH was the creator write…“God alone, by himself created all things through Jesus”?
Instead they say…
Col 1:6
FOR BY HIM (YESHUA) WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “[ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:(By him and FOR him!)Context indicates they were speking of Jesus not Yeshua:
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'”)
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2009,09:13) Quote (martian @ Feb. 20 2009,08:18) So what exactly happened to those experiances and memories from Jesus' pre-existence? Did He retain them into His birth on the Earth?
Don't know the answer except to say that it is written that he emptied himself and took on human flesh.So the answer maybe in the emptying himself.
“Empty” (kenoo) – “…1. to empty, make empty … Philippians 2:7 … 2. to make void i.e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect … 3. to make void i.e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false …” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.
Philippians 2:6-8
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Hi t8:The Apostle Paul was instructing the church in humility using the life of Jesus as an example. That is what I see in these scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartySeeking……Why did God say “I (WILL) be to Him a Father, and He (SHALL) be to me a SON. Why us words such as (WILL) and (SHALL) if Jesus was already His son in a preexistent Life time. Why the future tense words. If i say Shall or Will that means He is not the way (NOW) why because He did not exist when the Statement was made.
Heb 1:6 notice < and again, (WHEN) he brings the firstborn into the world. When did He bring Jesus into the world (at His berth) not before His berth. Jesus is the (FIRSTBORN) of Humanity to Become the FIRSTBORN into the Kingdom of GOD from humanity. But there are many more who will also be Born to GOD in this world. Jesus is Just the First that all. Adding some Preexistence to that is forcing the text. No where does it say GOD brought His Preexistent First born into the world Did He, so why try to make it say that.When Scripture does not say that. All who try to get Jesus into a preexistent state have to always force the text to accomplishment their theologies. There would be (NO) good reason for Jesus to have preexisted, but all kinds of reasons that He was (EXACTLY) like us with no advantage over us whatsoever, Except that GOD was With Him in his humanity as He can be with us also. I do not separate Jesus from my identity as He was in this world so am I also, as He overcame His Flesh I also must with the same GOD and Father that gave Him the victory who can give me the victory also. IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………gene
G,
2 Samuel 7:14
” I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,It shows how fathers and sons relate.
Nick……….Right (but in a future state) so how can he be in existence when those words were stated. Indeed it does show the relationship that (WILL) come to be. But you are saying Jesus already existed remember. If it were present tense GOD would have said I (AM) a Father to Him and He (IS) a son to ME. You talk about the accuracy of Scripture then you need to use it accurately. IMO
love and peace……………………..gene.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2009,12:57) G,
Jesus was yet to be born son of God.
Hi Nick:So are you are you saying that he was a Son of God before he was born a Son of God?
No, I agree with Gene on this one. The scripture states that God “will be” a Father to him and Jesus “will be His Son”.
Quote Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And the scripture also states: “this day have I begotten thee”.
Love in Christ,
Marty942767……..If you care to check it out you will find the that scripture is saying , Jesus thought Not to ROB GOD to Make Himself Equal with Him , Jesus Had been given a lot of Power by GOD and could have easily uses it to steal Glory from GOD and make himself to appear equal with Him. But he was always careful to never do that. (example) when Jesus told Martha “did i not tell you if you only believe , you would see the glory of GOD,” (Martha could have easily taken that as Jesus saying He was GOD) when he raised Lazarus from the grave, But notice what Jesus did immediately after telling Her the ( Father I only said that so that they might believe that you have sent Me) why did Jesus say that?, it was because he wanted to make sure the Father Knew He wasn't trying to steal glory away from Him, as Moses did at the water of Meribia , He stole Glory from God, Jesus did Not allow that to happen.
peace…………………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2009,13:12) Hi 94,
God sent his monogenes Son into the world[1Jn]
Hi Nick:He sent him into the world after he was baptized in the Jordan.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (martian @ Feb. 13 2009,10:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,10:24) Quote I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them. I have answered your questions time and time again. This has not been a fruitful correspondence so I suppose we have to agree to disagree.
LU
I recall no answers to my questins. Could you direct me to the post that you answered them in or could you answer them again?To refresh your memory here are the questions.
Did his pre-existence hep his ability to defeat temptation?
“If His pre=existence helped him overcome temptation then how can that be an example for me?
If His pre-existence helped to know his Father in a more perfect way then how can we be one with the father even as He is one with him?
Was His healing power dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to love dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to understand scripture dependent on his Pre-existence?
Or how about this one —-
Was His ability/right to be resurected dependent on his Pre-existence?
To all…….This post by Martian is very good and Should be considered by all He brings out some real important things in this post.love and peace to you alll……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 19 2009,18:44) Seeking……Why did God say “I (WILL) be to Him a Father, and He (SHALL) be to me a SON. Why us words such as (WILL) and (SHALL) if Jesus was already His son in a preexistent Life time. Why the future tense words. If i say Shall or Will that means He is not the way (NOW) why because He did not exist when the Statement was made.
Gene,We know the answers hinge on ones convictions regarding pre-existence. If you accept that the 2Samuel verses have dual application and are prophetic of Jesus as son we can go in two directions.
Pre-existence… Jesus pre-existence was not as son but as co-creator
Non Pre-existence… Jesus could not have pre-existed as these terms are future.
In the initial context is was not Jesus who was spoken of specifically – though perhaps prophetically.
2Sa 7:8 Now, therefore, thus you shall say to my servant David, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts
2Sa 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you,who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men,
I'd go with Solomon.
Nick…..I showed you what is written and how it was written, but i noticed you never acknowledged it as such. Why is that Nick. And Now you say is it written to 942767 , where is it written what you are saying, 972767's reasoning is accurate and if you have a better understand then post it not Just say IS IT WRITTEN, This form of condescending you need to stop brother.
said in love brother………………………..gene
Seeking ……..Goes hand and hand with what i Posted indeed Jesus was brought into existence through the loins of David as scripture says. But no where is there any activity of Jesus shown before His berth and if there was then please show it, what was His name and what office did he Hold . This issue of preexistence to one of the most important issues we have. It only supports the Trinity doctrines and nothing else IMO. There is no Reason for GOD to take a preexisting being kill Him and rebirth Him and then Kill him again. It would show us no example of any kind and only separates us from Jesus' likeness. I believe anyone who removes Jesus from our exactness in every way, can not see how Great and Powerful our God is, in taking a ordinary human being and perfecting Him to a point where he does not sin, This is important for us to see, what GOd did for this ordinary Human man He can also do for Us to. This Point can not be overlooked, we must relate with Jesus as one of our own kind, in every way with out exceptions. IMO
love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi Nick:
Quote Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. When were we sent into the world?
Quote Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Jhn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jhn 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
When did the light come into the world if its wasn't in his ministry?
Hi Marty,
Simeon saw Him as a “Light of revelation” even as a child.Luke 2:25-32
25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
NASULU
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