Preexistence

Participant

Hi AP

So are you saying that the Lord, in the “BEGINNING” when he laid the foundation of the earth; is the (world to come) in Heb 2:5?

Then this future world that Jesus creates will be destroyed?

Or to put it another way….

Are you meaning the future world when Jesus sets up his kingdom is the “BEGINNING” and at that time Jesus lays the foundation of the earth?

I do not think so.

And, Thou, Lord, in the “BEGINNING” (not new beginning) hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands”: THEY SHALL PERISH; BUT THOU REMAINEST; AND THEY ALL SHALL WAX OLD AS DOTH A GARMENT; AND AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU FOLD THEM UP, AND “THEY SHALL BE CHANGED“: BUT THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL”. Heb 1:10-12

If Jesus is the Creator of the “world to come which is the “then occupied earth” then what of the rest of Hebrews 1:10…?

“….And The Heavens Are The Works Of Thine Hands“

Does Jesus also “in the beginning” when he returns create a “new heavens” that will pass away?

I think Kathi puts it very well…

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2009,07:40)

Also, as I understand things, the earth gets destroyed and replaced ONE time…after the 1000 years. Therefore Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking of the Son laying the foundation of the earth and heaven that will perish AFTER the 1000 years. That is this earth on which we live today. This is the only earth that is going to perish, not a future one. The Son laid the foundation of the earth we are standing on now.

February 12, 2009 at 7:21 am#121291

Participant

Hi AP

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52)

The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

Pss 102 LXX
16 For the Lord shall build up Sion, and shall appear in his glory. 17 He has had regard to the prayer of the lowly, and has not despised their petition. 18 Let this be written for another generation; and the people that shall be created shall praise the Lord. 19 For he has looked out from the height of his sanctuary; the Lord looked upon the earth from heaven; 20 to hear the groaning of the fettered ones, to loosen the sons of the slain; 21 to proclaim the name of the Lord in Sion, and his praise in Jerusalem; 22 when the people are gathered together, and the kings, to serve the Lord.23 He answered him in the way of his strength: tell me the fewness of my days. 24 Take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are through all generations. 25 “IN THE BEGINNING THOU, O LORD, DIDST LAY THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH; AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS. 26 They shall perish, but thou remainest: and they all shall wax old as a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them, and they shall be changed.

Pss 102 NIV
16 For the Lord will rebuild Zion and appear in his glory. 17 He will respond to the prayer of the destitute; he will not despise their plea. 18 Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the Lord: 19 “The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high, from heaven he viewed the earth, 20 to hear the groans of the prisoners and release those condemned to death.” 21 So the name of the Lord will be declared in Zion and his praise in Jerusalem 22 when the peoples and the kingdoms assemble to worship the Lord. 23 In the course of my life he broke my strength; he cut short my days. 24 So I said: “Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. 25 IN THE BEGINNING YOU LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORK OF YOUR HANDS. 26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded.

Where is the different sense you speak of in the LXX? There is very little difference in the LXX and the Masoretic rendering!

The context of PSS 102 shows nothing of the New Heavens and the New Earth, but only the beginning of the current heavens and earth which will pass away. In which the Lord is “now” building up Zion (the Church) and preparing his Bride for the appearing of his Glory! The “building up of Zion” is not the same thing as the New Heavens and New earth.

You are making inference on the text and I believe are doing violence to it.

IN THE BEGINNING YOU LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORK OF YOUR HANDS. 26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded.

Also in all the copys of the LXX I could find “the Lord” in Pss 102 is with the capital letter “L” meaning “YHWH”.

Of course if this is true then it blows “Unitarianism” out the window.

The Hebrew writer has elevated this passage where the Psalmist in Pss 102 speaks of YHWH as the Creator, to being Jesus.

For more Info on this, Click Here!

February 12, 2009 at 12:25 pm#121300

Cindy

Participant

Most people believe that when they read Gen. 1:1, that was the beginning of creation.
Think about it, would God have created the earth in such a chaotic state knowing he was about to create plants, trees, animals, and man on it? Would the earth in that state, be something for the angels to shout about?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb. 2:5 is a reference to the millennium, and there after.
Peter talked about the world that was, and now is.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

That was the world before the flood.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

That is the world we live in now.
We have to be careful not to take allegorical description as literal. God is not going to destroy the heavens above, why should he? Heavens on earth are places of religious authority, churches, where men teach us about God; do they not teach with authority?
Why would God want destroy the earth, did he not say to all of his creation, it is good?
Earth encompasses all what man has made, and created for himself, his societies, his governments, his way of life, a selfish way of life. All that will be destroyed.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Elements, what man has built for himself, what he has gotten used to.
This day is not a single day either, it is the time when all these things will be destroyed, and man wont even be aware of it taken place.
Have you noticed, we are not alone in this economic crisis, it is global; do you think that is a coincident?

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Notice how “LORD” is spelled, that is reference to YHWH.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

That “Lord”, could be any one.

Georg

February 12, 2009 at 3:27 pm#121308

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2009,13:59)

Martian,
When I was confronted with the idea of the Son of God actually being a true firstborn, actually born of God and being His actual Son, His non-adopted Son, I wanted to hear God as He guided me to true understanding. I used nothing but the Bible, no other commentaries or popular, scholarly books. After I heard from Him on this, then I tested it with the Bible and insights from scholars. I suggest that you do the same with your questions. If you have any doubts about what you have been leaning on, now would be a good time to give your understanding to the Lord and with a surrendered heart, ask Him for the answers to your questions.

I cannot relate to the questions you have presented here. For instance, I never thought about how the Son's past existence gave Him an advantage till I read some posts on here. I think that it is interesting that those that believe in the Son's pre-existence don't seem to concern themselves with that. I never worried about that one bit but more so grateful that He had that past to enrich His abilities to love and know men and rule the world to come. I believe the more skills and variety of experiences under the Father's presence the better.

Reply –
Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times.

You say-
I cannot relate to the questions you have presented here. For instance, I never thought about how the Son's past existence gave Him an advantage till I read some posts on here. I think that it is interesting that those that believe in the Son's pre-existence don't seem to concern themselves with that.

Reply-
No surprise to me. They do not concern themselves with it because to do so puts big holes in their doctrine. Situational ethics. One of the foundational truths of Christianity is the example Christ left for us to follow. To whatever degree you change Christ from a normal human being to that same degree He cannot be our example. If His pre=existence helped him overcome temptation then how can that be an example for me? If His pre-existence helped to know his Father in a more perfect way then how can we be one with the father even as He is one with him?
Was His healing power dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to love dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to understand scripture dependent on his Pre-existence?
Or how about this one —-
Was His ability/right to be resurected dependent on his Pre-existence?
If any of thee things depended on His pre-existence then they cannot be perfect examples for us.

You say-
I never worried about that one bit ……

Reply –
I might suggest that you do worry about that. Instead of telling others that they should examine their beliefs, perhaps you should see that your beliefs line up with the purpose and plan of God.

I find it very interesting that I just finished posting the following on another thread.

“It is like the man that owns a bakery. A sales man comes in a says he has a new recepe for bread. The baker looks over the recepe and it contains dirt. Being open minded he whips up a sample batch. Guess what, iy tastes like dirt. The salesman say wel we just have to twink the other ingrediants, so they play with the amounts of flour, sugar, milk and eggs. When the salesman is done they try another batch. It still taste like dirt.

The point is that if your result is wrong, then there has to be a problem with your ingreiants or your process. It is the same way with teaching. If your conclussion does not work to help a person become more like Christ, build hope or make Christ more of a viable example then the process or ingrediants must be wrong. If the end conclussion depends on changing the character of God then the process or ingrediants must be wrong.

Most of the time when I ask people on this board these simple questions, I can sense the puzzled looks on the other side. It never seems to occur to most that we actually need to fulfill a purpose or have a proper conclussion to our reams of discourse. A conclussion and purpose that actually moves the body of Christ forward.”

I once read something about that —
5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I have heard many on here profess the godliness of their doctrines yet they cannot explain in any way how it empowers a person to walk with God. They cannot show how it functions to do anything except be a philosophy for the purpose of debate.

Lightenup,
I ask this without malice of any kind.
If you cannot tell me how your teaching helps me to become more like Christ, see Him as an example or support the plan of God in my life, then why are you wasting my time with an idle philosophy?

Perhaps you should consider if your teaching produces any fruit that lines up with the plan of God as brought out by those questions.

February 12, 2009 at 5:09 pm#121319

Participant

Martian,
It amuses me that you expect me to take my time to answer your concerns after you speak to me like that. If you don't question anything that you believe (see quote) why are you expecting me to give you my time to answer you. I do not have that kind of time to waste. Sorry!

Quote

Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times.

I wish you well,
LU

February 12, 2009 at 5:20 pm#121320

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,07:25)

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb. 2:5 is a reference to the millennium, and there after.
Peter talked about the world that was, and now is.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

That was the world before the flood.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Notice how “LORD” is spelled, that is reference to YHWH.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

That “Lord”, could be any one.

Georg

Hi Georg,
I was wondering why you believe that Gen 1:1 speaks of a chaotic state instead of merely a formless and void state that He wants the Son to take part in to form and fill. Do you have scripture that states the formless and void state means chaotic?

Also, can you show me scripture that the angels were created before day 1?

I understand it differently than you. I don't see chaos until after man sinned and fell away from God.

Kathi

February 12, 2009 at 5:36 pm#121322

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Martian………..You have it right brother, if we see Jesus in anyway not (EXACTLY) like we are then we can not truly relate with him nor really claim he was exactly like us, if we give him preexistence status of any kind , other then in the planned will of God , we then just do not see Jesus as He really was at all. This false teaching of a preexisting Jesus is simply a support doctrine for the False teaching of the Trinity. Without it the Trinity falls also. I personally see Jesus exactly like me and any other human begin, who the FATHER perfected by the power of His Spirit and seeing and understanding that it gives me hope that the FATHER can DO the Same for me also.

This subject is a Hugh one Martian and it need to be further explained and understood.

love and peace to you and yours……………………………..gene

February 12, 2009 at 5:46 pm#121323

Participant

Hi George

You may not want to take those scriptures litterally, but I do.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and “the elements shall melt with fervent heat“, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein “the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved“, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:10-12

The Greek word for “Heavens” is 'ouranos' which means;

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it

a) the universe, the world

b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced

c) the sidereal or starry heavens

2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

This is not the realm of man.

Notice the the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved.

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,23:25)

Why would God want destroy the earth, did he not say to all of his creation, it is good?

The answer is because the “earth” is cursed because of the sin of man.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: “cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life“; Gen 3:17

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3:13

And I saw “a new heaven (ouranos) and a new earth“: for the first heaven (ouranos) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:1

The Lord will purge everything by fire.

Sorry George, but the scriptures teach that the new earth will have no sea!

February 12, 2009 at 5:58 pm#121327

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ……..(Sea) in Revelations is symbolic for human beings. I saw a Beast rising out of the SEA , this does not mean the ocean but the sea of Humanity. I am not saying it could not be a literial Sea but it also could be relating to Humanity no longer existing in the earth, and God is recreating man into a different life form. Just a thought to consider. IMO

love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene

February 12, 2009 at 6:38 pm#121335

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2009,04:58)

love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene

HI GB

That is speculation at best. So if the “Sea” here represents humanity then what you are saying is that there is no “humanity” in the new earth?

Man shall change but he will still be man. Even Jesus is still a man, is he not?

And “the sea gave up the dead” which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:13

Who are the dead that were in the sea?

If you check you will see that in most all cases the word “sea” found some 92 times in the Bible is mentioned as the litteral “sea”.

The Hebrew wod for “sea” is “yam” which means…

1) sea
a) Mediterranean Sea
b) Red Sea
c) Dead Sea
d) Sea of Galilee
e) sea (general)
f) mighty river (Nile)
g) the sea (the great basin in the temple court)
h) seaward, west, westward

The Greek word is 'thalassa' which means;

1) the sea
a) used of the sea in general
b) used specifically of the Mediterranean Sea or the Red Sea

Richard C. Trench in “Synonyms of the New Testament” quotes…

“…it is the sea as contrasted with the land (Gen. 1:10; Matt. 23:15; Acts 4:24); or perhaps more strictly as contrasted with the shore (see Hayman’s Odyssey, vol. 1. p. xxxiii. Appendix).”

February 12, 2009 at 7:22 pm#121338

meerkat

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2009,06:58)

love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene

Gene,

Not sure that it is human beings as a whole – more like the difference between jews and gentiles – believers and unbelievers – righteous and unrighteous. The earth and the sea are contrasts.

February 12, 2009 at 8:10 pm#121346

Cindy

Participant

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne…
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

What are heavens below?

Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

OK, Wj, to the rest.

Georg

February 12, 2009 at 8:21 pm#121348

Cindy

Participant

Kathi

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

They could not have shouted for joy, if they had not been created before the earth.
I'm not saying you have to believe what I believe, but in my book I have a whole chapter explaining the earth, what I believe happened.

Georg

February 12, 2009 at 9:15 pm#121357

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,04:09)

Quote

Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times.

I wish you well,
LU

Bad tactic but a good cop out. I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them.
The truth is that I have not seen a single honest reason from you or your doctrine that would lead me to question what I believe. You show me fruit from your doctrine and I will consider it.
I simply ask you to show me the fruit of your teaching. You do not think that is important?
You are on here claiming that your doctrine is correct. I ask, Does your doctrine hep me become like Christ and if so how?
I do not know what you desire in life. I desire to become like Christ. Can your doctrine help me do that? How?

This is where the old died in the wool evangelical debate forums fall short. It promotes an intelectualized debate rather then living truth that produces change in peoples lives.

February 12, 2009 at 10:13 pm#121374

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,08:27)

Martian,

Before I share some thoughts I wish to be clear I no longer hold to Trinitarian convictions. I will try to respond to your question as to how a Trinitarian can be helped in their walk
when they hold to those beliefs.

You asked – and rightly so

“If His pre=existence helped him overcome temptation then how can that be an example for me? If His pre-existence helped to know his Father in a more perfect way then how can we be one with the father even as He is one with him?
Was His healing power dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to love dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to understand scripture dependent on his Pre-existence?
Or how about this one —-
Was His ability/right to be resurected dependent on his Pre-existence?
If any of thee things depended on His pre-existence then they cannot be perfect examples for us.”

There conviction is that Jesus “Made himself nothiing removing any advantage pre-existence would have afforded him”

They reference –

Quote

PHP 2:6-7 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.

With that in mind they are encouraged to have a Savior that can sympathize with their struggles because He went through them without any Godly power.

They glean that from –

Quote

Heb.4:15-16 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Thus they find encouragement and help in their walk and believe others could also believing what they believe.

Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have.

Seeking

February 12, 2009 at 10:50 pm#121383

Participant

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 13 2009,09:13)

martian,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Martian,

You asked – and rightly so

There conviction is that Jesus “Made himself nothiing removing any advantage pre-existence would have afforded him”

They reference –

Quote

PHP 2:6-7 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.

With that in mind they are encouraged to have a Savior that can sympathize with their struggles because He went through them without any Godly power.

They glean that from –

Quote

Thus they find encouragement and help in their walk and believe others could also believing what they believe.

Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have.

Seeking

This is under the assumption that your interpretation of Phil 2 is correct. Functionally it is not correct. I invite you to read the post beginning on this page.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2211

Pay particular attention to points 3, 4, and 5

I could go into scriptural proof that Phil 2 does not mean a pre-existent being emptied himself of his divinity, but again that would serve no purpose.

February 12, 2009 at 11:19 pm#121387

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,15:21)

Kathi

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Georg

Hi Georg,
Thanks for your reply. The question that I do not think the Bible clearly answers is: when was the foundation considered laid? I purpose that it was when it became formed, after day 1 and not before since it was formless. I also purpose that the angels came during the six days of creation. They are called the “Morning Stars” and the concept of “morning” wasn't introduced until day 1. I'll have to read that part of your book again.

God bless,
Kathi

February 12, 2009 at 11:24 pm#121388

Participant

Quote

I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them.

I have answered your questions time and time again. This has not been a fruitful correspondence so I suppose we have to agree to disagree.
LU

February 12, 2009 at 11:32 pm#121390

SEEKING

Participant

martian,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Martian,

Recall what I wrote –

Quote

Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have.

You offered – I could go into scriptural proof that Phil 2 does not mean a pre-existent being emptied himself of his divinity, but again that would serve no purpose.

Your right, it would serve no purpose because I already honor that. I did not offer what I did to encourage debate of meaning but to offer some understanding I was under the impression you were honestly seeking. I said “Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have.”

You said, ” This is under the assumption that yourinterpretation of Phil 2 is correct.” If you had said their I would have thought you honored the intent of my post as I made clear it was not “MY ASSUMPTION.”

If you are looking for a quarrell with me, I didn't think we had one.

Blessings,

Seeking

February 12, 2009 at 11:37 pm#121391