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Hi Jodi,
You say
“God's Spirit works in man's spirit so that we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. “Only if we walk in the Spirit and allow the gentle wind to lead us.
Gal5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
——————————————————————————–
Her it is
It says in Galatians 2: 16 ” knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh will be justified.
verse 17 ” But if while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin/ Certainly not!
verse 18 ” For if I built again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
verse 19 ” For I thought that the law died to the law that I might live to God.
verse 20 ” I have been crucified with Christ' it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life
which I now life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loves me and gave Himself for me.
verse 21 ” I do not set aside the grace of God ; for if righteousness comes through the law then Christ died in Vain.'
Question What law was Paul talking about in these verses and in the rest of Galatians.
In Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ , you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Is that only talking of circumcision and sacrificial Law?
Peace and Love Irene
——————————————————————————–Adam Pastor posted:
Quote Mat 1:18) Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Now we know what genesis means, don't we?
Ans: Beginning!
So, the beginning of Jesus the Messiah was on this wise …
Not so fast AP! YHWH spoke to Moses on the Mount these words,
“I SHALL BECOME WHAT I SHALL BECOME“ (Exodus 3:14).Our translations erroneously translate it “I am”. God said that He shall BECOME whatever He wants to become. So if He wants to know “genesis” as a man then He can certainly do so. Or is YHWH limited in your thinking?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2009,05:50) Adam Pastor posted: Quote Mat 1:18) Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Now we know what genesis means, don't we?
Ans: Beginning!
So, the beginning of Jesus the Messiah was on this wise …
Not so fast AP! YHWH spoke to Moses on the Mount these words,
“I SHALL BECOME WHAT I SHALL BECOME“ (Exodus 3:14).Our translations erroneously translate it “I am”. God said that He shall BECOME whatever He wants to become. So if He wants to know “genesis” as a man then He can certainly do so. Or is YHWH limited in your thinking?
thinker
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): – beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.Just as the word does not necessarily mean I AM it does not mean to become – it seems to mean {to exist} – so could either be will exist in the future – or always existing ( when relating to God it would be always existing as we know he has no beginning or end and is eternal).
I do not believe that God became a man – Jesus says God is a Spirit and seeks worship in Spirit and truth.
Jodi! Question, in your last post you quote
John 4:34 Jesus said:” My Food is to do the will of Him WHO SEND ME, and to finish my work.
Question where did He send Him from?
Peace and Love Irene
Meerkat said:
Quote Just as the word does not necessarily mean I AM it does not mean to become – it seems to mean {to exist} – so could either be will exist in the future – or always existing ( when relating to God it would be always existing as we know he has no beginning or end and is eternal). I do not believe that God became a man – Jesus says God is a Spirit and seeks worship in Spirit and truth. Greetings Meerkat,
The fact that God is a spirit would not discount that He could become human for two reasons:
1. Spirit has form or body too. Jesus told the Jews that that they had not seen God's form “You have neither heard His voice or seen His form” (i.e., shape or body).
2. If God has form or body and He shall BECOME what He shall become as He said to Moses, then He can take another form (human) if He so chooses.Everything has body including spirit. And spirit is that which transcends the natural and not is necessarily that which is totally opposite of the natural. So I ask you what I asked AP:
Do you think that YHWH is limited?
thinker
HI TT,
So we could imagine God could leave heaven and become a man – but then that man prayed to Him in heaven. Heaven is His throne and I do not think scripture says he ever leaves heaven.He does in another way as His Spirit is as His finger.[lk11cf mt12]
Ps 139
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?Form is not necessarily body.
Nick,
YHWH said “I shall become what I shall become”. I have no problem with it. Jesus said, “I came down from heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him that sent Me”. Men may deny Christ's divinity, but to deny His pre-existence is to refute the unrefutable.thinker
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Who did God send to us?
a.)A pre-existent spirit son, disguised in human flesh.
b.) A human being, who was in every way tempted as we are but remained without sin.6:30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
WHO brought us life to the world?
a.) A pre-existent spirit son, disguised in human flesh.
b.) A human being, who was in every way tempted as we are but remained without sin.Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.
Exodus 16:14 And when the layer of dew lifted, there, on the surface of the wilderness, was a small round substance, as fine as frost on the ground. 15 So when the children of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “This is the bread which the Lord has given you to eat.
THE BREAD THAT CAME FROM HEAVEN, was made on earth!
Ne 9:15 You gave them bread from heaven for their hunger, And brought them water out of the rock for their thirst, And told them to go in to possess the land Which You had sworn to give them.
Ps 78:24 Had rained down manna on them to eat, And given them of the bread of heaven.
Ps 105:40 The people asked, and He brought quail, And satisfied them with the bread of heaven.
Isa 55:10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
Joh 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' “
Because the BREAD came down FROM heaven, does that mean that it pre-existed in another form in heaven? Of course not it means that it came directly from the planning and power of God.
John 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Jesus wants us to believe that he is a what?
a.)Pre-existent spirit son
b.)Human being, who was in every way tempted as we are but remained without sin and died for our sins.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?” 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
Jesus directly compares himself with the bread THAT CAME FROM HEAVEN. There is absolutely nothing in these scriptures even hinting at Jesus pre-existing. The identity of Jesus is never revealed to be in any form other then a MAN. He is the bread that came from heaven AS A MAN! Jesus is the bread that CAME FROM HEAVEN bringing life because he was a SINNLES MAN WHO DIED ON THE CROSS.
“THE BREAD THAT I SHALL GIVE IS MY FLESH, WHICH I SHALL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD.”
Jesus was a human being born of Mary who came into existence under the direct plan and power of God, this is what makes him COME FROM heaven.
John 6”52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
The living father SENT WHO into the world?
a.)A pre-existing spirit son?
b.)A MAN who would take away the sins of the world?Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
WHO is the image of the invisible God? The scripture is clearly talking about the MAN Jesus who died on the cross. When Paul says that Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we need to remember that Jesus had already died at this point and Paul is speaking, of which he clarifies, that Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
Peace was made by?
a.) A pre-existent spirit being posing in human flesh?
b.) A MAN, a human being who died on the cross?Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our L
ord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.God’s PLAN says nothing about a pre-existing spirit son becoming a man. God’s plan is clearly laid out that our savior would be a man, just as Adam was a man that brought sin, Jesus would be a man to remove it. This is a clear simple plan.
16And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Some of you destroy the WORD of YHWH by adding to it. You deny Jesus came in the flesh, by saying he came from a pre-existing spirit being. Jesus was sinless because the Holy Spirit was working in him, not because he pre-existed.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It was by one MAN”S obedience, not through a pre-existing spirit son posing as a human being, that man would be made righteous. It was through the Spirit of the Father working in a man. This man is said to come from heaven as the bread that came and saved the Israelites came from heaven, neither being of a pre-existent form, but simply coming from heaven according to the direct plan and power of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2009,17:34) Hi Jodi,
You say
“Jesus spirit was in full force when he went to the wilderness and WAS TEMPTED. This happened right AFTER the Spirit came down to him. ”The spirit of Jesus the man was in him before the anointing or he would have been dead.
Jas2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.At the Jordan the Spirit came down on him like a dove.
Then empowered by the Spirit of God he went to be tested by Satan in the desert.Lk4
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Like us in him he had his own spirit and the Spirit of God
Rom8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Hi Nick,You said, ” Hi Martian,
Just like us the man Jesus Christ lived by his own spirit till reborn from above by the Spirit of God at the Jordan and his own spirit left him at calvary.”So my point was that Jesus has always had his own spirit. When the Holy Spirit descended upon him, he still had his own spirit. When Jesus went into the wilderness to be tempted, it was his own spirit that was being tempted. God was testing Jesus with his new powers that had just been bestowed upon him by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not use the powers of God for himself, but he denied his weak flesh. Jesus did not make bread even though he was hungry, he did not take for himself the kingdoms of the world even though he had been given great powers to make such attainable.
Hi JOdi,
So your point is that it was not necessary for our salvation for Jesus to have been anything but an obedient, anointed man?I believe that too.
But pragmatism is not what we should turn to for truth but what is written.
Hi Nick
You said, “But pragmatism is not what we should turn to for truth but what is written.”
This is a silly statement IMO. To UNDERSTAND and BELIEVE in something it must past through the mind and MAKE SENSE.
We must believe in something simply because it is written? I believe in the bible BECAUSE what is written makes sense, NOT because I am an ignorant fool who will believe in something just because someone else confesses the bible is the Word of a god. I have found through my life, through thinking, observing and learning that the bible is true, that the words are truth and life.
How does one understand what is written? How do words find and reach meaning?
If something does not make sense to me I am NOT going to believe it.
When something begins to make sense, that is when I can start to test it's truth.
To truly BELIEVE in something is a matter of proof through having it make the most of sense.
Truth is found through proof, not through blinded belief in written words.
Quote (Cindy @ Jan. 23 2009,09:37) Jodi! Question, in your last post you quote John 4:34 Jesus said:” My Food is to do the will of Him WHO SEND ME, and to finish my work.
Question where did He send Him from?
Peace and Love Irene
Perhaps I can answer that one.
You sk where the Father sent Jesus from?
According to Jesus it is the same place Jesus sends us from
John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 29 2009,06:09) Hi Nick You said, “But pragmatism is not what we should turn to for truth but what is written.”
This is a silly statement IMO. To UNDERSTAND and BELIEVE in something it must past through the mind and MAKE SENSE.
We must believe in something simply because it is written? I believe in the bible BECAUSE what is written makes sense, NOT because I am an ignorant fool who will believe in something just because someone else confesses the bible is the Word of a god. I have found through my life, through thinking, observing and learning that the bible is true, that the words are truth and life.
How does one understand what is written? How do words find and reach meaning?
If something does not make sense to me I am NOT going to believe it.
When something begins to make sense, that is when I can start to test it's truth.
To truly BELIEVE in something is a matter of proof through having it make the most of sense.
Truth is found through proof, not through blinded belief in written words.
Hi Jodi,
Do you not accept the Bible is the Word of God?Is your understanding of spiritual matters not based on it but intellect?
If so why do you work so hard quoting that which is not for your the truth?
Are all who disagree with you arrogant fools?
Nick it's not about disagreeing with me, it's about our OWN person relationships and journies with God and what we COME TO UNDERSTAND. I share MY understanding of which I believe comes from God showing me things through what the bible says and my own personal experiences, isn't that what most of us do?
Duh of course I accept the bible as the word of God, sheesh NIck didn't I JUST SAY THAT.
And I said I believe it to be such BECAUSE I have proved it to be true or rather, God has proved it true in my brain by making it make sense to me.
You don't go around simply telling people to read the bible and believe it because YOU say it's true, it has to be proven to them and it is done so by making sense.
Hi Jodi,
So we are reborn from above by coming to certain understandings and not by any form of submission?
I do not think the human mind is the arbiter of salvation.
What we learn we must obey.But we then can no longer can claim ignorance as an excuse for disobedience.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,13:36) Hi Jodi,
So we are reborn from above by coming to certain understandings and not by any form of submission?
I do not think the human mind is the arbiter of salvation.
What we learn we must obey.But we then can no longer can claim ignorance as an excuse for disobedience.
Our understanding brings us into submitting ourselves to God. Through my understanding I see that man can do nothing of himself, all that he does without the guidance of God bears no good fruit. My understanding is that I need God's direction, therefore through my understanding I know that I need to follow His ways and not my own.We must believe in the name of Jesus the Messiah. We must believe that man is made righteous only through God's Spirit, and it is God's Spirit working in us that brings us to this understanding.
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