Preexistence

Participant

T8….when you have scripture that seems to counter dicked other scriptures , like God created everything (through) Jesus and scripture that say GOD (alone) created everything. We then know there is some kind of error, If you take the word (through) you will find it can mean (for) (by) (through) and even i believe has more meanings. But the I believe the Hebrew word mean exactly what they say is the text. So give that the Greek could mean something else and the Hebrew is accurate we can say the word in the Greek should have been (for) him not (by or through) him. imo.

peace to you and yours………………….gene

October 31, 2008 at 6:17 am#111282

gollamudi

Participant

Amen to that post brother Gene.

October 31, 2008 at 6:25 am#111283

david

Participant

Quote

T8…..If scripture says God (ALONE) created the world and everything in, How can you add someone else into the mix. Peter plainly says Jesus was (foreordained) BUT was Manifested in (OUR) time.

Gene. I've found that when you quote scriptures, people put more faith in the Bible, than our own words. Why not give it a try?

October 31, 2008 at 6:26 am#111284

david

Participant

Quote

when you have scripture that seems to counter dicked other scriptures . . .we then know there is some kind of error

Quote

Amen to that post brother Gene.

November 27, 2008 at 10:52 am#112528

gollamudi

Participant

Hi all,
Here is my favourite topic ” The pre-existence of Jesus”

“In the context of the stress upon the humanity of Christ, the notion of his pre-existence as eternal Son of God which figured prominently in the traditional formulations and found renewed emphasis in the dialectical theology of Karl Barth, has proved to be a grave embarrassment. Kuschel's massive survey of the question from Barth to Schillebeeckx provides ample evidence of this. The British scholar John Macquarrie even dubs the claim that Jesus Christ, prior to his birth, had a conscious, personal pre-existence in heaven something destructive of his true humanity.

Those theologians who are not prepared, as was R. Bultmann, to regard pre-existence as simply a mythological relic in biblical thought and to state bluntly, “We no longer need that particular conception,” face the problem of somehow saving the biblical and early conciliar affirmations of the pre-existence of the Word, on the one hand, without injury to the full humanity of Jesus, and, on the other hand, without belaboring Christian proclamation with concepts meaningless to contemporary understanding.

In the face of this dilemma, many systematic theologians have found blessed relief in a growing tendency among biblical scholars to regard statements of pre-existence as relatively isolated and rare across the broad spectrum of the New Testament. What might be called a full-blown notion of pre-existence — the belief that the one subsequently known as Jesus Christ somehow had a personal history with God prior to his human life — is regarded as more or less confined to the Johannine literature and other late documents. It is notably absent from the three Synoptic Gospels, the chief resource for the human history of Jesus, while the earliest documents, the authentic letters of Paul (Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), if they contain the notion at all, feature it simply in the attenuated, figurative sense of Christ's pre-temporal presence in the mind and purpose of God, without any implication of personal pre-existence. From this perspective the significance of the motif is severely relativized as regards the total witness of the New Testament and its right to exercise so dominant an influence on doctrinal formulations, as in traditional Christology, put in question.

Among biblical scholars, the outstanding representative and indeed champion of this view has been the British exegete James D. G. Dunn, with whom can be associated in particular Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, John A. T. Robinson, and now Stanley K. Stowers. The influence of this tendency is clear in the caution of scholars who adopt more moderate positions, such as John Ziesler.

John Macquarrie offers a notable example of the impact such views have had upon systematic theologians. Macquarrie enthusiastically endorses a Christology from below in the form proposed by Dunn:

This … type of interpretation not only fits well with the modern insistence on the full humanity of Christ … , but also dispenses with the mythological idea of a personal pre-existence of Jesus Christ…. It is perfectly compatible with (and probably demands) the idea that Jesus Christ pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God…. If one wants to go beyond this and claim that Jesus Christ had prior to his birth a conscious, personal pre-existence in `heaven', this is not only mythological but is, I believe, destructive of his true humanity”.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

November 27, 2008 at 5:04 pm#112531

Participant

Hi GM,
Do you find the doctrinal notions of theologians more illuminating than scripture itself.
It is surely better to let scripture speak and explain itself.

November 27, 2008 at 6:21 pm#112534

Participant

Adam………Amen the that post and epically the last Paragraph. Keep up the good fight brother, God has blessed you with this understanding.

love and peace to you and yours………………..gene

November 27, 2008 at 6:38 pm#112535

Participant

Hi GM,
The words of John and all the letters of Paul are from the mouth of God.
You should not listen to fools who would put them aside in favour of their ideas.

November 28, 2008 at 7:43 am#112585

gollamudi

Participant

Thanks brother Gene for such appreciation.

As regards to the advice of brother Nick; yes I know I have to depend on the scriptures than human misconceptions on the nature of our Lord Jesus. Therefore I don't believe in any personal pre-existence of our brother Jesus except in the eternal plan and purpose of God the Father as rightly told by St Peter in 1 Pet 1:20.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

November 28, 2008 at 2:29 pm#112593

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2008,18:43)

Thanks brother Gene for such appreciation.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

I find it so amazing how you and Gen ignore so many Scriptures when it comes to the preexisting of Jesus. An open mind when you study is so important. Do not look at other Theologian, in most cases they go wrong.
Rev. 3:14 clearly states that He is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15
Before Abraham was I was.
John 17:5 What glory was that He had with the Father, if He is going back to that glory, we know it is a Spirit Being and not just a plan of God.
How can He create all if He was not there? He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation.
Col. 1:15
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth.
Preeminence first in all.
Let me find an article from my Husband for you, you are both confused. It is rather long, but if you both want to know the truth, I would study it.
Peace and Love Irene

November 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm#112595

Participant

.I started in the middle of His article so it would not even be longer.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth, tradition maybe?
Jesus was made in the image of the Father, exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jes Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preemine
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or us more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going a
fter strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is anothmixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb? I did edited some it still is long.
Peace and Love Irene

November 28, 2008 at 8:19 pm#112605

Participant

Hi Georg,
You say
“These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.”

No scripture says this.

“At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid.”

Jesus was resurrected into his old damaged body and he showed these wounds to his brothers.

November 29, 2008 at 12:11 am#112612

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 29 2008,07:19)

No scripture says this.

“At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid.”

Jesus was resurrected into his old damaged body and he showed these wounds to his brothers.

Nick Like I said I edited the article and parts is left out, just wanted the part about the preexisting of Jesus. So I would not have to type it myself with my Arthritis Hands. Georg does not want to get involved, so He told me.
Job 38:7 And all the Angels shouted for joy….
If you read in Job 38:6 and 7 you will see that there were demons that were Angels first, all demons were Angels first until Lucifer rebelled and 1/3 of the Angels went with Him and then were called Demons. Just like Lucifer is now called Satan.
Peace and Love Irene

November 29, 2008 at 5:32 pm#112658

Participant

All Angels shouted for joy, when the Word (Jesus) created the world, read it in the James Moffatt Bible in Proverb 22

Peace and Love Irene

November 29, 2008 at 5:36 pm#112659

Participant

Hi Irene,
You quote Jn38 to show demons were angels.

Jb38
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Nothing there to back this idea up.

November 29, 2008 at 11:38 pm#112676

Participant

So tell me how did the demon come about, did God create them that way? Or where they Angels first and good, like Satan? I was mainly quoting about the preexsisting of Jesus, not what the Angels did. You are taking me of the subject. Genesis says plenty about all the Angels. Just was saying that the Angels were shouting for joy in Job.
Irene

November 30, 2008 at 12:47 am#112684

Participant

Irene………..There are two ways of life GOOD and EVIL, they are opposite one another, one is a SATAN (adversary) of the other. If you are of the Good, as GOD is then all evil is an adversary of yours. Any who is doing evil is a Satan or adversary of GOD. God uses Evil to cast out Evil that why we are here in the state to learn to Hate EVIL by seeing its effects in life. Jesus said if SATAN (adversary)cast OUT SATAN (adversary)His kingdom will not stand , GOD is using Evil to cast out Evil. Is was necessary for us to experience Evil to grow to hate it, and experience Good in order to grow to love it. It all fits in the perfect plan of God.

love to you and yours……………….gene

November 30, 2008 at 8:38 am#112730

Participant

GB,
Satan does not oppose himself but his kingdom is very unified and well organised.
Jesus made this point to show how he was not a servant of Satan but came to pilfer his goods.
The god of this world has had notice served on him that his dominion of darkness will be overcome by light.

November 30, 2008 at 7:33 pm#112747