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Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:22) Quote I don't believe Jesus preexisted because in the gospels we are told that Jesus was conceived and he was born. I take this literally. You may not take it literally, and that is OK. –not3
I of course do take it literally. But I don't limit God. God was involved. You believe that since Jesus was born as a human, he could not possibly have pre-existed.
No scripture supports this belief.
This is clearly a one time deal, so we can't go on what we see around us to draw some conclusion. Scripture is clear on this, i believe.
You take it literally that Jesus was conceived.WJ takes it literally that Jesus was conceived.
I believe that Jesus was literally conceived.
We all believe in 3 different Jesus'!
Curious, huh?
How clear is scripture, again?
Hi Isaiah – how are you tonight?
No Jesus wasn't conceived normally, that is for certain. However, everything else was status quo. And the thing is, when pondering the miraculous conception……if God was to have a “natural/biological” Son……how was he to go about it? I think the whole virgin birth was an excellent idea – don't you? Plus, it was the only idea considering.
Quote You say, “Every other time someone was pre-existent and their life was transferred into someone's womb, they were fully human? Who are you talking about here?
My point was made in the next sentence: “Actually, this is a very unique case.”Your observations and opinions about what a human is are quite irrelivant.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”All those scriptures I quoted about Jesus being a corresponding ransom, of equal value to Adam–Jesus had to be a human, a perfect human without sin, like Adam, to get back what adam lost.
You say that Jesus was a man, a real true complete man.
What if I said a man can't become a spirit?He wouldn't be a real true spirit. He'd be a man that became a spirit.
Yet, the scripture I quoted above says that he became a life giving spirit, life giving, because of his ransom sacrifice.
So, I can abandon my “I don't believe men can become spirits” idea and replace it with scripture.
Quote Possibly there are no scriptures to the “contrary” as you say, however, there are varying interpretations of those very same scriptures. –Not3
If there are no scriptures to the contrary, then this conversation is over, and I will continue to believe what the scriptures say.
If there are varrying interpretations, I'd like to hear them.
MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”Is this not talking about Jesus?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,18:00) I think David has raised a number of good points lately, none of which appear to have been addressed. Not3, the point you don't seem to want to face up to is this – there is a clear sequence of events in Phil 2:6-8: 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.The sequence is al follows, Yeshua:
1. Existed in the form of God
2. Emptied Himself
3. Took on the form of a bond-servant
4. Was made in the likeness of men
5. Was found in appearance as a man
6. Humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of deathBefore he emptied Himself He was in the form (morphe) God.
Before he found in appearance as a man He emptied Himself….
Do you now see why this verse so strongly speaks of His preexistence?
Isa 1:18 And David!Good points.
Jesus also said…
Jn 6:61
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Not3. How does the Unitarians explain this scripture?
If you deny Y'shua came in the flesh, you are not His. Simply the Messiah is not His Father, he is a Son. Power was given to Him by the Father. We should follow His example and worship our Father inHeaven as Y'shua did. We should believe in the Son and guard the commands of YHWH.
Quote If a person is not yet conceived, they are but a thought/hope/plan/dream – whatever. Their life begins when they are conceived. And the angel? Did their lives begin when they were conceived?
Conception is not necessary for life of spirit beings.
Of course, Jesus is the most unique case ever, so we can't just say that his “life begins when [he] is conceived.”Yes, this is true of normal births, normal people. Jesus doesn't fit into this category at all.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:35) Quote You say, “Every other time someone was pre-existent and their life was transferred into someone's womb, they were fully human? Who are you talking about here?
My point was made in the next sentence: “Actually, this is a very unique case.”Your observations and opinions about what a human is are quite irrelivant.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”All those scriptures I quoted about Jesus being a corresponding ransom, of equal value to Adam–Jesus had to be a human, a perfect human without sin, like Adam, to get back what adam lost.
You say that Jesus was a man, a real true complete man.
What if I said a man can't become a spirit?He wouldn't be a real true spirit. He'd be a man that became a spirit.
Yet, the scripture I quoted above says that he became a life giving spirit, life giving, because of his ransom sacrifice.
So, I can abandon my “I don't believe men can become spirits” idea and replace it with scripture.
David,
I'm sorry. I just don't follow you. Maybe it's because it's getting late and I'm tired. But I don't recall saying anything about not being able to *become* a life-giving spirit because he is a man.A life-giving spirit is something that Jesus has *become* – it has little to do with his life on earth. We have life because he died.
Not3in1, others have joined this discussion and I don't want you to feel you're being beaten up or bullied.
I'm sorry if I ever created this impression.
I should be off to bed now anyway.
david
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:40) Quote If a person is not yet conceived, they are but a thought/hope/plan/dream – whatever. Their life begins when they are conceived. And the angel? Did their lives begin when they were conceived?
Conception is not necessary for life of spirit beings.
Of course, Jesus is the most unique case ever, so we can't just say that his “life begins when [he] is conceived.”Yes, this is true of normal births, normal people. Jesus doesn't fit into this category at all.
Again, I do not agree.Angels are not men. Angels are not conceived, they are created.
Jesus was never said to be a “spirit being” before he was conceived.
Jesus was conceived of a women – a women under law. He had flesh and bones. He was made like his brothers in every way. This is scripture, by the way, I just don't know where it is right off.
Jesus had a normal birth.
Quote But I don't recall saying anything about not being able to *become* a life-giving spirit because he is a man.
Right. I'm the one that said that. It's the reverse of what you said. And it's completely untrue. But one could just as easily believe that as what you believe.
Humans can't be true spirits.
Spirit beings can't become true humans.Quote A life-giving spirit is something that Jesus has *become* – it has little to do with his life on earth.
Yes, and a man is something Jesus became. He “became flesh.”Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,18:31) Hi Isaiah – how are you tonight?
A little tired to be honest, staring at computer screens all day will do that to you.Quote No Jesus wasn't conceived normally, that is for certain. However, everything else was status quo. And the thing is, when pondering the miraculous conception……if God was to have a “natural/biological” Son……how was he to go about it? I think the whole virgin birth was an excellent idea – don't you? Plus, it was the only idea considering.
How do you know everything else was status quo? I would think such a unique conception would produce an ESPECIALLY unique individual. Also, as I've mentioned to you before I don't see how the conception and birth of Yeshua is any kind of invalidation of His pre-existence. Certainly He could use this mechanism to become flesh and make His dwelling among us (John 1:14). Nothing is impossible for YHWH.Now Not3, I know you have seen my posts in the Holy Spirit thread….
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:42) Not3in1, others have joined this discussion and I don't want you to feel you're being beaten up or bullied. I'm sorry if I ever created this impression.
I should be off to bed now anyway.
david
Nah…..I don't feel *too* beat up But thanks, brother for the concern.I just know that we all have what we feel is a chunk of truth. We are all here to discuss and toss around ideas (theories).
Any scripture can and is debated. I learn from everyone.
Thanks and goodnight,
MandyQuote (david @ July 03 2007,18:45) Quote Jesus had a normal birth. The birth may have been normal, but the conception wasn't.
True. Because God is not a man.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,18:38) Jesus also said… Jn 6:61
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Not3. How does the Unitarians explain this scripture?
I have no idea WJ, hopefully we'll find out….I would just like to say before I close that we live, not because he died, but because He live a righteous life that we will never be capable of. If it weren't for HOW HE LIVED, His death would mean nothing of itself. We live because He lives!!! His death was what sealed the new covenant, and a new way through the Spirit.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:37) If there are varrying interpretations, I'd like to hear them.
But you don't like my “interpretations” of scriptures; you say I use too much “philosophy” and not enough scripture. Oh, well.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,18:38) Not3. How does the Unitarians explain this scripture?
I don't know? Ask a Unitarian!
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