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Quote (Laurel @ July 02 2007,17:43) I have been kicked out of a few for sharing with Jews the Messiah and with Christains the Feasts and Sabbath. I hope I found a home here, where I am not kicked out for teaching what has been revealed to me.
No, no, no – you won't be kicked out! You may want to read the rules though!
We all have a little twist to the scriptures. It's been a real lesson for me to hear everyone's views. At times it has also sent me to bed in tears….wondering why we all believe so differently, and wondering if I have the “truth” or just a portion of it?
This board has tested my faith, and my character.
Gene, I think none of us here thinks the trinity is true doctrine. As for me I know Messiah is our head and the Father is His head. ps. I am female, but I am not under a husband or he would be my head.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,17:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,17:31) Hi not3,
Scripture does say at death our spirit returns to God[ecc12]
Does it say anywhere it comes back again?
Nick, this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.When we die – we sleep. At resurrection, we wake up!
To me, this means that I am still myself, only resurrected.
After Jesus was resurrected he was still “himself.”
Right?
Hi not3,
We are body soul and spirit,
Spirit only gives life but we ARE soul.
At death we lose spirit but without spirit,
We are physically dead[jas 2.26] but not nonexistent.
We wait to be raised.
Lk 8.55 is interesting.Quote (Laurel @ July 02 2007,17:47) Gene, I think none of us here thinks the trinity is true doctrine. As for me I know Messiah is our head and the Father is His head. ps. I am female, but I am not under a husband or he would be my head.
Laurel,We have some very dedicated Trinitarians here: WorshippingJesus, Isaiah 1:18, Cult Buster, and others. As well as Jehovah Witnesses and others. This site is a mix of various “brands” of Christianity…..that's what makes it so great (and challenging).
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,17:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,17:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,17:31) Hi not3,
Scripture does say at death our spirit returns to God[ecc12]
Does it say anywhere it comes back again?
Nick, this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.When we die – we sleep. At resurrection, we wake up!
To me, this means that I am still myself, only resurrected.
After Jesus was resurrected he was still “himself.”
Right?
Hi not3,
We are body soul and spirit,
Spirit only gives life but we ARE soul.
At death we lose spirit but without spirit,
We are physically dead[jas 2.26] but not nonexistent.
We wait to be raised.
Lk 8.55 is interesting.
“Her spirit returned….” Yes, interesting. Where was her spirit? Out getting a cheeseburger and a coke? I wonder?
to all> i believe the soul is who you are your paticular uniqueness that composses who and what your, and spirit is afexed to it and is it's intellect . but the soul composes who and what we are.
an interesting thing Jesus said to us Not to fear those who can kill the body and after that can do no more, but fear his who can kill both body and soul. obiviously Jesus was talking about God when he said th
I believe real death would be to lose both body and soul.
another interesting point is it say's Jesus empitied his soul unto death, in other words as far as Jesus was concerned when he died his existence was over, just like we do when we die.it also say's when a man dies his thoughts perish, and again the dead know not nothing. as far as we are concerned it over. if The Father chose no to raise us we simply would not exist any more. As far as Jesus was concerned it was over for him also or why would he say My GOD My God why hast Thou Forsaken Me. this proves to me he was a totally human being and not a God as some claim.
this is just my take on soul. gene
I think we are all born with a soul. It is what makes us individuals. The Spirit in us is the Spirit of Elohim, given us by grace, through belief. I think when the body dies the soul sleeps. All who died believing and obeying will be raised upon the return of Y'shua Messiah King. If we are not of Messiah, our soul will be cast into the fire and be gone forever. We who are saved will not recall the unpleastries of earth or the unpleasent people of earth who were not saved. Just my take.
Thanks, Gene. I think this dying/spirit/soul thing is so interesting it deserves it's own thread! I wonder if there is a thread for this topic? There should be……I've studied it a bit, but would love to hear from others about what happens when we die.
The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”The scriptures are overwhelming in this matter. Human philosophy does not compare.
I’m going to re-emphasize some of what has already been stated by T8, Isaiah 1:18, WJ, etc, and add some to it.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
Take any translation you like and look at the portion of words that I have underlined, regardless of how it is translated. Then explain to me why you believe those words do not mean what they say.
Remember that he made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
For example, we who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we? Or we cannot say that we formerly had divine nature or God's nature can we?
2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)
When in Yeshua's earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”
HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.”
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:58
“Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”
HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”All of these scriptures except for the last are quite obvious to me. There was really no need to even include this last scritpure, but I did so for the sake of completeness.
Is this talking about Jesus?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps
90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.I would really like a biblical scriptural explanation of why some believe that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence.
If the scriptures seem so clearly to point to his pre-human existence, we would definitely need some pretty clear scriptures to refute this.
Of course, the Bible doesn't contradict itself so either my scriptures or yours would be somehow all misinterpreted. But as I don't think you would have any scriptures, this isn't a problem.david.
Quote (david @ July 02 2007,21:02) The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”The scriptures are overwhelming in this matter. Human philosophy does not compare.
I’m going to re-emphasize some of what has already been stated by T8, Isaiah 1:18, WJ, etc, and add some to it.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
Take any translation you like and look at the portion of words that I have underlined, regardless of how it is translated. Then explain to me why you believe those words do not mean what they say.
Remember that he made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
For example, we who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we? Or we cannot say that we formerly had divine nature or God's nature can we?
2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)
When in Yeshua's earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”
HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.”
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:58
“Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”
HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”All of these scriptures except for the last are quite obvious to me. There was really no need to even include this last scritpure, but I did
so for the sake of completeness.
Is this talking about Jesus?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.I would really like a biblical scriptural explanation of why some believe that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence.
If the scriptures seem so clearly to point to his pre-human existence, we would definitely need some pretty clear scriptures to refute this.
Of course, the Bible doesn't contradict itself so either my scriptures or yours would be somehow all misinterpreted. But as I don't think you would have any scriptures, this isn't a problem.david.
Don't avoid responding to this quote. I would very much like to see your responses!!!
acertaincap > Jesus did preexist, but how is the question, Jesus existed only in the plan of God, no scripture shows any work or activity Jesus was doing . nothing you quoted if looked at in a true contexual mannor not to mention that nearley all bibles were translated by people who were under the trenaterian idology.
the text has been forced in many places.you have bought the biggest lie ever told, (a triune God) that frankly does not exist.
take a closser look at your examples with the idea that all those things can be applied to God's plan,
please explain what Peter was saying when he said , Jesus was (ordained) before the foundations of the world (BUT) was Manifested in our time.
dest this not show Jesus was in thew plan of God but came into existence in our time.
scripture plainly say's there is only (ONE) God and (ONE) meserator between man and God, (THE MAN) Jesus Christ. what doint you understand about that. even Jesus prayed and said Thou art the (ONLY TRUE GOD) to me (ONLY) means no other and (THOU) means someone else. whats you take on that not to nention quintless other scriptures the show God created the Heavens and earth it Say's BY (MYSELF) and I alone am God and there is no other and on it goes.But you trentarians refuse to deal with any of these scriptures in you dialog. But rely on textes that could go either way and that becomes your only proofs, but you have to disreguard all then streight forward texts that counter you false positions.
truly it is said you strain out an gnat but swallow a camel. you have swallow the bigest lie ever told. you have brought the lie because you don't love the truth and God has sent you a delosion inorder for you to believe (THE LIE).
Quote (t8 @ July 02 2007,17:04) To humble one self is to start off in a higher place and to go down.
How could Jesus humble himself and become a man if he started life as a man?I am sure that Unitarians have an answer for this, but I also am not satisfied with their answers to all the scriptures that teach pre-existence. Their answers seem more like excuses to me, just the same as the Trinitarian answers that are used to support their theology.
It seems to me that on one side you have Trinitarians and on the other you have Unitarians who say Jesus is a man and didn't preexist and nor does he share his Father's nature.
Both sides of the pendulum perhaps, but God's truth is not of the pendulum.
Who said there were 2 camps and one of them is the correct one?
Did not the Devil deceive the whole world. Is he not the one who sets 2 sides against each other. The only true division should be the Kingdom of God and the world.
I think it is best if we take scriptures for what they say and throw away all models and creeds. Let the scriptures speak and let us have the heart to listen.
Scripture says that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is his son. But there is also ample scriptures that show that Jesus came down from heaven and that he humbled himself and became a man and then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.
All I seem to hear are excuses as to why scripture doesn't mean what it says. I cannot accept these excuses. I am sorry but I trust scripture more and I dislike all the excuses I hear.
Quote I think it is best if we take scriptures for what they say and throw away all models and creeds. Let the scriptures speak and let us have the heart to listen. t8 where in scripture does it say that the son of God was made flesh?
John 1:1 says WORD not Son. So who is taking scripture for what it says and who is not?
David,
Phi 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
The Son of Man did not look to what He could do rather what the Father Wanted Him to do.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
We who are born again should do the will of the Father and not our own will.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Here was the Word in the form of the image of God (Gen. 1:27). The Word was with God and was God.
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
Fashion:
G4976
σχῆμα
schēma
skhay'-mah
From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: – fashion.Phi 2:8 And being found in the same Fashion [ circumstance] as a man……
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Was the Word who became flesh rich? YOU BET! But he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The Word was made as a MAN in God's image but lower than angels just as ALL men are!
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Exactly like man the Word had a body.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
The Word was/is part of God.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Was Jesus the “Son of man” before becoming flesh? What was it that came down from heaven?
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.The WORD feeds our spirit.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.The first creation of God, HIS WORD (Rev. 3:14) became His Son in flesh as WE ARE. Jesus was flesh with his very own spirit just as we have our very own spirit. When we are born again of the Spirit we accept His Word the first born fleshly Son of God. Isn't that what we are?
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Word-bread-food- Get it?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Again was the “Son of man” in heaven or was it the Word that was with God John 1:1.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Word became flesh~Jesus~ who like us was born under the law but did not break the law making the flesh and His spirit one. We believe it or not if we submit to the Holy Spirit can do the same. Jesus was tempted just as we are but did not sin or break the law He was born under. When and if we DO then we will do the works the Father has for us to do. IMHO We will never be able to accomplish the Father&#
39;s will until we become ONE.IHN&L,
Ken
Quote Jesus did preexist, but how is the question Ok, I guess that is the question.
Quote no scripture shows any work or activity Jesus was doing .
Please read the many scriptures I quoted. I believe you are wrong in this.“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had [as a plan] alongside you before the world was.”
Can a plan have glory? Is Jesus now a plan again, back in heaven?
I wonder how a plan can empty itself.
He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.”
I suppose this means that Jesus was God's first plan.
I do believe this suggests action:
God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”
Now you cold say that all things came into existence through God's plan, but why would God say to this plan: “Let us make man in our image.” And if not to Jesus, who was he speaking?Quote you have bought the biggest lie ever told, (a triune God) that frankly does not exist.
Jesus' pre-existence in no way whatsoever necessitates the trinity belief. Angels certainly existed at the founding of the world. (Job) Their existence doesn't mean they are triune with anyone.Quote please explain what Peter was saying when he said , Jesus was (ordained) before the foundations of the world (BUT) was Manifested in our time.
I'm trying to figure out which scripture this is. Can you please make it more clear. As well, are there any other scritpures that suggest Jesus is a plan.Quote scripture plainly say's there is only (ONE) God and (ONE) meserator between man and God, (THE MAN) Jesus Christ. what doint you understand about that.
Quite often is scripture it is made very plain that Jesus is the son of man, that he “became flesh” and truly was human in every way. This was necessary for the “ransom” sacrifice to be of equal merrit with what Adam lost. It was a ransom sacrifice. Jesus needed to be a perfect human, as Adam was.
Actually, I just realized that that very scripture includes this thought:
1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.”MATTHEW 20:28
“Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.””MARK 10:45
“For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.””COLOSSIANS 1:14
“by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”Anyway, looking at the actual scripture and the very title “son of man” it's clear that the Bible makes it plain that Jesus was human while on earth. That was the point of the scripture, that he was a “man” and as a perfect man, a “corresponding ransom” to what Adam lost.
Quote means someone else. whats you take on that not to nention quintless other scriptures the show God created the Heavens and earth it Say's BY (MYSELF) and I alone am God and there is no other and on it goes.But you trentarians refuse to deal with any of these scriptures in you dialog.
I don't refuse to deal with ANY scriptures.God is the creator, he alone. But he created everything “through” Jesus as the many scriptures say. Yes, God alone is the power and spirit behind all we see. But just as a king would use a builder to accomplish his purpose, yet using the kings vast resources to have it done, so Jehovah, our creator has done.
It's that word “through” that you have to grasp.Quote But rely on textes that could go either way and that becomes your only proofs, but you have to disreguard all then streight forward texts that counter you false positions.
So far, in this thread at least, there have been very few scriptures on the other side. There has been philosophising, etc.
There is a mountain of scritpures that say Jesus pre-existed. But I guess that's not an issue with you. It is whether he pre-existed as a plan, or as a spirit being.
I believe that has it's own specific thread, somewhere.But I truly would like a response to my scriptures about whether Jesus pre-existed or not. You agree that he did, but not in the same manner.
I'd like a response to these scriptures, from someone who disagrees.
Kenrch:
Quote t8 where in scripture does it say that the son of God was made flesh?
It says he “became flesh.” check my post.kenchr, I will respond to you later. I have little time now.
david
Just noticed I missed a few scriptures:
JOHN 1:15
“(John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)”JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”Quote What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception. –Not3in1.
I really am having difficulty understanding why you or anyone would believe that Jesus didn't “come down from heaven” “from the realms above.”
I believe that there are several scriptures that address this matter and that they are all very clear, with the possible exception of Proverbs.
Quote Kenrch:
Quote
t8 where in scripture does it say that the son of God was made flesh?It says he “became flesh.” check my post.
Ok, where does scripture say the son of God became flesh?
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Once the Word was made flesh He was declared the only begotten of the Father.
Where did the son of God become the son of God?
Hi Kench, you asked: “where in scripture does it say that the son of God was made flesh? “
You seemed to indicate that scripture didn't say this.
You provided the answer yourself:
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among usSo, I guess John 1:14 is “where”, your answer.
Quote Where did the son of God become the son of God?
The angels are called sons of God, as well. Adam was a son of God.
Regardless of your question, you have your answer.Quote (david @ July 03 2007,09:11) Hi Kench, you asked: “where in scripture does it say that the son of God was made flesh? “ You seemed to indicate that scripture didn't say this.
You provided the answer yourself:
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among usSo, I guess John 1:14 is “where”, your answer.
Quote Where did the son of God become the son of God?
The angels are called sons of God, as well. Adam was a son of God.
Regardless of your question, you have your answer.
David what was made flesh? The Word David where does it say son?No David, where does scripture say that the son or a son became flesh?
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