Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. – Proverbs 8 22-23

“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. – Proverbs 8:24

“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. – Proverbs 8:30

People can argue that wisdom is an attribute and that is true. People can also argue that truth is an attribute and that is true. But Jesus is also the Truth and he is in fact wisdom too.

Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side and was the first of God's works and was given birth. The Logos was also with God in the beginning and we know that Jesus is with God now at his right hands side.

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Therefore Jesus is the wisdom of God, just as he is the truth and the light and we know that truth comes from God and that God is light.

I actually think there is a strong case to make regarding attributes of God. God creates us based on his attributes. If we are created in his image it is God's attributes that we personify. Makes me wonder if the name that we receive that no one knows except God and the person who is given the name, is the attribute that we were created to reflect. Something that only God would know because he created us for a purpose and he perhaps knew of us before we were crafted into the womb.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 01 2008,17:18)

Hello again, Kathi. I'm sure you are aware of the great many versions of the bible and how they interpret scriptures differently?  Below is just one example of how this scripture can be interpreted differently – Titus 2:13 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; The Glorious appearing of our great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ.  Two.  One is God, the other is Jesus.  Just another interpretation from a very popular version of God's Word.  Other scriptures that you listed can also be found to follow this KJV interpretaion. So the muddy waters continue to be muddy.  It is not absolutely clear.  To say that I have a “different” faith than Paul and Peter because I do not see the scriptures as you do seems a bit self-righteous, imo, but I'll let it go because I've come to know your heart and I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound quite like that. Take care, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
You said it right about the different translations of the N.T which have made N.T a mess. The scribes have manipulated the manuscripts and made our Lord Jesus as another God which has complicated understanding the True God of the Bible. I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting.

I think these verses clarify who Jesus came to be.
Deut 18:

15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear: 16 As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die. 17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. 21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

What does these verses say?
Jesus came as a prophet like Moses from their brothers. He has to be a human being not any God. Jesus came to speak to Israelites on behalf of God. He is the open mouth of God declaring His word. That's why he is the incarnation of the 'word of God' not God Himself.

If you don't understand God and Jesus from the view point of Jewish monotheism we make lot of blunder in making God poly and mystery.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 01 2008,08:29)

I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting. I think these verses clarify who Jesus came to be. Deut 18: 15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear: 16 As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die. 17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. 21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him. What does these verses say? Jesus came as a prophet like Moses from their brothers. He has to be a human being not any God. Jesus came to speak to Israelites on behalf of God. He is the open mouth of God declaring His word. That's why he is the incarnation of the 'word of God' not God Himself. If you don't understand God and Jesus from the view point of Jewish monotheism we make lot of blunder in making God poly and mystery. Thanks and blessings Adam

Adam,

Quote

I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting.

The “One God” did not have a beginning. The begotten God did. You still don't have my words straight dear one.

I have showed you that the scriptures speak of “one LORD” and yet there is another “one Lord” and you seem to accept that. In a similar way, the scriptures speak of “one GOD” and yet there is another, a begotten God. One always existed and one had a beginning. I am comparing an apple to an orange. I am not thinking of them as two apples so to speak. An apple can't be an orange and an orange can't be an apple but both can be fruit. Do you get this Adam??

God bless,
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 01 2008,01:18)

Hello again, Kathi. I'm sure you are aware of the great many versions of the bible and how they interpret scriptures differently?  Below is just one example of how this scripture can be interpreted differently – Titus 2:13 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; The Glorious appearing of our great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ.  Two.  One is God, the other is Jesus.  Just another interpretation from a very popular version of God's Word.  Other scriptures that you listed can also be found to follow this KJV interpretaion. So the muddy waters continue to be muddy.  It is not absolutely clear.  To say that I have a “different” faith than Paul and Peter because I do not see the scriptures as you do seems a bit self-righteous, imo, but I'll let it go because I've come to know your heart and I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound quite like that. Take care, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Context clues as well as grammar structure tells us that there is one being spoke of here, keep reading verse 14:

13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

This is what the NET Bible says about the translation:

20 tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Tit&chapter=2#v20

When you see these apparent differences there is a need to dig deeper than just choosing another translation because it suits your faith.

We do have two different faiths, you and I. That is not meant to be a self-righteous statement, simply a fact. I do not believe the son of God to be just a man and you do. That is extremely different.

God bless,
Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

T8….> i believe you have it backward, Jesus is not the wisdom of God , GOD'S wisdom is in him, big difference brother. Jesus (became to us) the wisdom of God, he was not always that way He became that way by God's Spirit in Him. Wisdom is one of God's attributes.

peace to you and yours……….gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:44)

We do have two different faiths, you and I. That is not meant to be a self-righteous statement, simply a fact. I do not believe the son of God to be just a man and you do. That is extremely different.

Hi Kathi,

I'm running out the door to take the kids and dogs to the beach, but I quickly wanted to reply. I will reply more thoughtfully this evening.

I do not believe that Jesus is just a man, so I think you are a bit confused as to what I believe. That is OK, it's difficult to keep track of everyone's theories here.

The self-righteous statement was not directed at my personal faith alone but also seemed to encompass other's who do not embrace your theology. Claiming that you have the faith of Peter and Paul and that perhaps other's have not accepted “that” faith (if they do not interpret scripture as you do) is a bit self-righteous, imo.

Who is to say who has THE faith of Peter and Paul? Can the JW's lay claim to that? Can the Lutheran's or Catholic's? Can the Trinitarians or Unitarians? Can you?

More tonight,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2008,12:18)

I would like you to tell me why Jesus is not your great God and Savior.  He is to Paul and Titus and Simon Peter and those that have received a faith of the same kind as them. Have you not received that faith yet?  Do you have a different faith than them?

Real quick – so there is no confusion.

Above is your statement regarding my faith perhaps not being that of Paul and Peter and YOU, apparently…..

You say that we have two different “faith's” but I believe in the One true God who is the Father of all, and Creator of all.  I echo Paul in 1 Cor. 8:6.  Do you believe in another God?  If not, we have the same faith.

Looking at what we have in common brings more unity that finding things where we do not.  If you take time to read Acts (my favorite book) you will find mostly unity among the brethren.  Their belief systems were very simple and straight forward.  If you are for Christ then you are not against him – come one, come all!  Praise God!

OK, kids are tugging at my sleeve now….have to run!

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 02 2008,00:29)

I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting.

Real quick (again). The kids are blowing bubbles…I have 5 minutes.

Adam,
I agree with you, however I don't believe Kathi's theology is primitive. In fact, it is quite advanced. Most folks take a simple revelation they feel they have from God (I've done this too) and begin to build a theology from it's base. You can do this with pretty much anything you choose. Scriptures are there for the plucking and pasting together. Even Lexicons, grammer, Greek and dictionaries will aid you in developing your own, unique religion.

But faith in God is simple. It is our hope and it saves our souls.

NOW – off to the beach!

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 01 2008,15:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:44) We do have two different faiths, you and I.  That is not meant to be a self-righteous statement, simply a fact.  I do not believe the son of God to be just a man and you do.  That is extremely different. Hi Kathi, I'm running out the door to take the kids and dogs to the beach, but I quickly wanted to reply.  I will reply more thoughtfully this evening. I do not believe that Jesus is just a man, so I think you are a bit confused as to what I believe.  That is OK, it's difficult to keep track of everyone's theories here. The self-righteous statement was not directed at my personal faith alone but also seemed to encompass other's who do not embrace your theology.  Claiming that you have the faith of Peter and Paul and that perhaps other's have not accepted “that” faith (if they do not interpret scripture as you do) is a bit self-righteous, imo.   Who is to say who has THE faith of Peter and Paul?  Can the JW's lay claim to that?  Can the Lutheran's or Catholic's?  Can the Trinitarians or Unitarians?  Can you? More tonight, Mandy

Mandy,

So are Peter and Paul self-righteous too? Do you think that you have the same faith as Peter and Paul, then are you self-righteous? No, I think you have the wrong idea of what self-righteous is, Mandy. You want to judge me? Look at the posts around here. Most everyone has a belief. Just because they have a belief and they disagree with you, doesn't make them self-righteous. We all want to think that we have the faith of Peter and Paul don't we. However if that faith includes whether Jesus always existed, per-existed but not always, or began in Mary's womb, those are faiths in three different son's of God. Therefore, if Peter and Paul believed in one of those three and I believe in another, I do not have the same faith and visa versa. Do you understand that we do not have the same faith. I believe that we have some things in common but when it comes to Christ, we don't. Therefore, not the same faith.

1 John 5 11-13
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

He who has the Son has the life. Which son? The real son or another son? I believe that you need to have the real son to have “the life”.

Read 2 Cor 11 and see that different Christs can be preached and then read that there are false apostles that teach those different Christs. It is not a small matter. Just because anyone says they believe in Jesus doesn't mean anything.

Later,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,10:23)

I believe that you need to have the real son to have “the life”.

And who determines who the “real” Son is?

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
If you were living in the time of Jesus what would you need to know about the coming Christ?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:44)

Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled.

This is certainly one opinion, and one opinion that happens to enforce your belief system. However there are other's out there that would claim the opposite and I have read many of them. One such argument against the GSR is presented by the CES folks and if you'd like I could copy their findings here. But something tells me that your mind is made up and that is OK, too.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 01 2008,19:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,10:23) I believe that you need to have the real son to have “the life”. And who determines who the “real” Son is?

Mandy,
Your answer:

His Father. His Father made Him a Son and the Father reveals to those whom He chooses, that He is His Son.

Matthew 16
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

I believe that the “Son” that the Father reveals is not the one with a geneology and an earthly mother but the one without a human geneology. That Son, without geneology became a man with geneology (see Matt 1 for His earthly geneology) so that He could be given for us as a blood sacrifice.

Hebrews 7
3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Jesus as Mary's first child had a beginning of days and end of life on the cross and He had a written geneology.

God bless,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 02 2008,03:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:44) Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. This is certainly one opinion, and one opinion that happens to enforce your belief system.  However there are other's out there that would claim the opposite and I have read many of them.  One such argument against the GSR is presented by the CES folks and if you'd like I could copy their findings here.  But something tells me that your mind is made up and that is OK, too.

Mandy,
Sure, go ahead. It is good to look at all angles.
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2008,20:15)

Hi LU, If you were living in the time of Jesus what would you need to know about the coming Christ?

Hi Nick,
There has been progressive revealation about the Christ over time. Back then in the time of Jesus they knew that the Messiah was coming and would declare all things to them however this was true, it wasn't knowledge that gave them salvation. To know Him and to know about Him are not the same thing.

Some passages from John 4
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”

This woman knew this but still did not KNOW in a way to have eternal life.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, `Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

39 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

Back in the time of Jesus as a man, people knew Him as a man, some thought He was just a prophet, many knew He claimed to be the Son of God but not everyone knew that He was indeed the Son of God. Those who did know that He was indeed the Son of God began a spiritual journey into the fullness of truth. I believe to really know the Son of God from the Father's revelation, you will receive fuller true knowledge of Him and His Son and not reject it. That is maturing in Christ. Some remain infants in their knowledge and require to be fed milk. Others grow and because by practice their senses are trained to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 5:11-14

11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

So Nick,
To answer your question:
“If you were living in the time of Jesus what would you need to know about the coming Christ?”
You wouldn't need to know about Him, you would need to know Him. It is then that you start the maturing process, not before. I think that our maturing process will not reach full maturity during our mortal stage of life. We can become more and more mature though. In order to know Christ, the Father must first draw us to Him and give us the faith to believe.

LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:17)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 01 2008,08:29) I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting. I think these verses clarify who Jesus came to be. Deut 18: 15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear: 16 As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die. 17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. 21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him. What does these verses say? Jesus came as a prophet like Moses from their brothers. He has to be a human being not any God. Jesus came to speak to Israelites on behalf of God. He is the open mouth of God declaring His word. That's why he is the incarnation of the 'word of God' not God Himself. If you don't understand God and Jesus from the view point of Jewish monotheism we make lot of blunder in making God poly and mystery. Thanks and blessings Adam Adam, Quote I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting. The “One God” did not have a beginning.  The begotten God did.  You still don't have my words straight dear one. I have showed you that the scriptures speak of “one LORD” and yet there is another “one Lord” and you seem to accept that.  In a similar way, the scriptures speak of “one GOD” and yet there is another, a begotten God.  One always existed and one had a beginning.  I am comparing an apple to an orange.  I am not thinking of them as two apples so to speak.  An apple can't be an orange and an orange can't be an apple but both can be fruit. Do you get this Adam?? God bless, LU

Hi Sis Kathi,
No scriptural proof for your begotten God unless the scribes have changed the texts in N.T. Jesus is the begotten Son of the only God the Father. You can not make many Gods who created this universe. Please see the scriptures that say Only one God that created us not two or three. All this drama started by historical Arians who claimed Jesus as begotten (God) and had a beginning. Your theory is not some thing new here. Even a JW believes that. But please understand God from the view point of Judaism not from Paganism. Jesus is the vessel for that One God not that he himself is another God. Please see Col 2:9-10

9 “For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily,
10 and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power”

We are also going to share in that fullness of Godliness with Jesus in our resurrection. So do we also be called Gods like you say about Jesus as begotten God apart from one God. I am not confused with your theory of saying Father is one Lord also jesus is one Lord. Pl. come out from that primitive belief of believing two Gods which make chrstianity a poly and mystery.
Sorry for the strong words.
Peace and love to you
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 02 2008,09:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2008,01:17) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 01 2008,08:29) I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting. I think these verses clarify who Jesus came to be. Deut 18: 15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear: 16 As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die. 17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. 21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him. What does these verses say? Jesus came as a prophet like Moses from their brothers. He has to be a human being not any God. Jesus came to speak to Israelites on behalf of God. He is the open mouth of God declaring His word. That's why he is the incarnation of the 'word of God' not God Himself. If you don't understand God and Jesus from the view point of Jewish monotheism we make lot of blunder in making God poly and mystery. Thanks and blessings Adam Adam, Quote I now can get what our Sis Kathi believes. But she is still in primitive stage of believing Jesus as another God besides the One God who also has beginning and preexisting. The “One God” did not have a beginning.  The begotten God did.  You still don't have my words straight dear one. I have showed you that the scriptures speak of “one LORD” and yet there is another “one Lord” and you seem to accept that.  In a similar way, the scriptures speak of “one GOD” and yet there is another, a begotten God.  One always existed and one had a beginning.  I am comparing an apple to an orange.  I am not thinking of them as two apples so to speak.  An apple can't be an orange and an orange can't be an apple but both can be fruit. Do you get this Adam?? God bless, LU Hi Sis Kathi, No scriptural proof for your begotten God unless the scribes have changed the texts in N.T. Jesus is the begotten Son of the only God the Father. You can not make many Gods who created this universe. Please see the scriptures that say Only one God that created us not two or three. All this drama started by historical Arians who claimed Jesus as begotten (God) and had a beginning. Your theory is not some thing new here. Even a JW believes that. But please understand God from the view point of Judaism not from Paganism. Jesus is the vessel for that One God not that he himself is another God. Please see Col 2:9-10 9 “For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily, 10 and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power” We are also going to share in that fullness of Godliness with Jesus in our resurrection. So do we also be called Gods like you say about Jesus as begotten God apart from one God. I am not confused with your theory of saying Father is one Lord also jesus is one Lord. Pl. come out from that primitive belief of believing two Gods which make chrstianity a poly and mystery. Sorry for the strong words. Peace and love to you Adam

Hi Adam
Where is your proof that the scribes have changed the original text of John 1:18. Where is your proof that “monogenes theos” was not the original wording?

Also, it is important to know the Son of God who does NOT have an earthly geneology but later became the Son of God with an earthly geneology.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Adam,
Don't the JW's and Arians believe that the Son of God was created. I don't. I believe He was actually born of God Himself! Big difference. It is sad to see that you still don't understand what I believe. It is like I am continually having to take you back to the basics of my belief.

Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……I think it was Athanius who taught the trinity not Airus who taught it, Ithink Arius believed Jesus did not exist as a God before his birth. Check it out in the book when Jesus became God i am pretty sure it there. But what you are saying is right in my opinion Jesus was not a preexisting God or being either, he did not come into existence until his berth through Mary, as Many and others believe.

Peace to you and your brother……….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…….I meant to say MANDY above. Sorry Mandy.

[Author]

Posts