Preexistence

[Lightenup]

Quote (Irene @ July 28 2008,11:26)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 28 2008,21:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2008,14:29) Hi Adam, Are you purposely not answering my question.  It is a yes or no question My question to you was: Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”? Please answer this so we can move on. LU Hi Sis, I have already answered this question in my posts above. I don't agree with your logic saying “there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ”, because you mean to say both Father and Jesus are LORD(Adonai) or Gods. No I don't agree with this logic. I believe that Father is LORD(Adonai) God and Jesus is the Lord(Adoni) Messiah.There is much difference in what I believe and what you have quoted. Father is One and only God; Jesus is the man mediator and Lord Messiah and Jesus can never be that One God. I can't go on and on with this arguement. Thanks and blessings Adam Adam As far as Lord and LORD is concerned you are so right, but I think Kathi is asking you if you believe in the preexisting of our Lord Jesus Christ, I think? Do you have an opinion on that? Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,
I know that Adam doesn't believe in a pre-existent Son of God. He has made that quite clear. I also know that the “one lord” in one verse is not the same as the “one lord” in another verse. Context tells us if it is referring to Christ or His Father. Thanks for your help though.

Love,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 28 2008,05:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2008,14:29) Hi Adam, Are you purposely not answering my question.  It is a yes or no question My question to you was: Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”? Please answer this so we can move on. LU Hi Sis, I have already answered this question in my posts above. I don't agree with your logic saying “there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ”, because you mean to say both Father and Jesus are LORD(Adonai) or Gods. No I don't agree with this logic. I believe that Father is LORD(Adonai) God and Jesus is the Lord(Adoni) Messiah.There is much difference in what I believe and what you have quoted. Father is One and only God; Jesus is the man mediator and Lord Messiah and Jesus can never be that One God. I can't go on and on with this arguement. Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi Adam,
When in your opinion did Jesus become a mighty one/master or a god/lord as you would put it?

LU

[GeneBalthrop]

Lightenup……> Jesus plainly said “For tho art the (ONLY) true GOD. He wasn't talking to or about Himself. Jesus also said they should seek Glory from the (ONLY GOD). ONLY means ONE, not two or three.

Peace to you and yours………gene

[Irene]

Gen We do know about LORD and Lord. The question remains about did Jesus exsist before the world was? Scripture tells us that He was the firstborn of all creation. That He has preeminence in all, meaning that He was first to be created and firstborn of the dead. First in all.
Col. 1:15-18, Rev. 3:14, John 1:1
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2008,11:06)

Lightenup……> Jesus plainly said “For tho art the (ONLY) true GOD. He wasn't talking to or about Himself. Jesus also said they should seek Glory from the (ONLY GOD). ONLY means ONE, not two or three. Peace to you and yours………gene

Hi Gene,
If capitalizing will help you, the way I see it is (please note the difference in capitalizing):
We have one “THEOS” and that is the Father of Jesus
We have one “Theos” and that is the Son of God-Jesus

For salvation we need faith in both THEOS and Theos.

There are others that are called “theos” and they cannot save us.

The same could be said of (again please notice the difference in capitalizing):

We have one “KURIOS” and that is the Father of Jesus
We have one “Kurios” and that is the Son of God-Jesus

For salvation we need faith in both KURIOS and Kurios.

There are others that are called “kurios” and they cannot save us.

Could you agree to that?
LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2008,07:04)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 28 2008,05:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2008,14:29) Hi Adam, Are you purposely not answering my question.  It is a yes or no question My question to you was: Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”? Please answer this so we can move on. LU Hi Sis, I have already answered this question in my posts above. I don't agree with your logic saying “there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ”, because you mean to say both Father and Jesus are LORD(Adonai) or Gods. No I don't agree with this logic. I believe that Father is LORD(Adonai) God and Jesus is the Lord(Adoni) Messiah.There is much difference in what I believe and what you have quoted. Father is One and only God; Jesus is the man mediator and Lord Messiah and Jesus can never be that One God. I can't go on and on with this arguement. Thanks and blessings Adam Hi Adam, When in your opinion did Jesus become a mighty one/master or a god/lord as you would put it? LU

Hi Sis,
I believe Jesus became Mighty one or Lord after his birth on this earth and by the power of resurrection from the dead. Please see the verse in Rom 1:3-4

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

I believe that 'Son of God' is the title that gives him the privilleges of the Lord, the Mastor, the mighty one or the Messiah.

Also please see Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

When did this power was given to Jesus? only after his successful completion of purpose of God in his life and only after his resurrection.

Also the verses in Acts
1. Act 2:22-24

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2.Acts 3:13-14

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

3. Act 3:20-22

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you

4. Acts 10:36-40

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Hi Sis all the above verses prove that God is the one predestined Jesus to be born as Human prophet and His Spirit was with Jesus while performing miracles and healings. He has been appointed as the Lord of all by that one God who is the Father.
Thanks and blessings
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 30 2008,03:06)

Lightenup……> Jesus plainly said “For tho art the (ONLY) true GOD. He wasn't talking to or about Himself. Jesus also said they should seek Glory from the (ONLY GOD). ONLY means ONE, not two or three. Peace to you and yours………gene

Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for your helping hand to me. I fully agree with you.
Peace and love to you
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2008,15:00)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2008,11:06) Lightenup……> Jesus plainly said “For tho art the (ONLY) true GOD. He wasn't talking to or about Himself. Jesus also said they should seek Glory from the (ONLY GOD). ONLY means ONE, not two or three. Peace to you and yours………gene Hi Gene, If capitalizing will help you, the way I see it is (please note the difference in capitalizing): We have one “THEOS” and that is the Father of Jesus We have one “Theos” and that is the Son of God-Jesus For salvation we need faith in both THEOS and Theos. There are others that are called “theos” and they cannot save us. The same could be said of (again please notice the difference in capitalizing): We have one “KURIOS” and that is the Father of Jesus We have one “Kurios” and that is the Son of God-Jesus For salvation we need faith in both KURIOS and Kurios. There are others that are called “kurios” and they cannot save us. Could you agree to that? LU

Hello Adam,
Thank you for your answer. Would you mind responding to my question in this quote to Gene that he is not answering?

Thanks a bunch!
Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

Lightenup……All original GREEK was written in Captial letters, they were changed by translators to fit there theologies at the time of there translating them. Check it out you will find this is true.

Love and peace to you and yours………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 31 2008,23:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2008,07:04) Quote (gollamudi @ July 28 2008,05:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2008,14:29) Hi Adam, Are you purposely not answering my question. It is a yes or no question My question to you was: Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”? Please answer this so we can move on. LU Hi Sis, I have already answered this question in my posts above. I don't agree with your logic saying “there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ”, because you mean to say both Father and Jesus are LORD(Adonai) or Gods. No I don't agree with this logic. I believe that Father is LORD(Adonai) God and Jesus is the Lord(Adoni) Messiah.There is much difference in what I believe and what you have quoted. Father is One and only God; Jesus is the man mediator and Lord Messiah and Jesus can never be that One God. I can't go on and on with this arguement. Thanks and blessings Adam Hi Adam, When in your opinion did Jesus become a mighty one/master or a god/lord as you would put it? LU Hi Sis, I believe Jesus became Mighty one or Lord after his birth on this earth and by the power of resurrection from the dead. Please see the verse in Rom 1:3-4 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: I believe that 'Son of God' is the title that gives him the privilleges of the Lord, the Mastor, the mighty one or the Messiah. Also please see Matt 28:18 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. When did this power was given to Jesus? only after his successful completion of purpose of God in his life and only after his resurrection. Also the verses in Acts 1. Act 2:22-24 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 2.Acts 3:13-14 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3. Act 3:20-22 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you 4. Acts 10:36-40 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Hi Sis all the above verses prove that God is the one predestined Jesus to be born as Human prophet and His Spirit was with Jesus while performing miracles and healings. He has been appointed as the Lord of all by that one God who is the Father. Thanks and blessings Adam

Adam….> Amen, Amen, brother, you nailed it as Jodi would say,
It really inspires me to see brother and sisters who understand God's word and when i see the Spirit are work, it brings great Joy.

May our Father continue to guide and direct your mind in the way of truth.

Love to you and yours give a hug to your wife and children for me…..gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 31 2008,14:14)

Lightenup……All original GREEK was written in Captial letters, they were changed by translators to fit there theologies at the time of there translating them. Check it out you will find this is true. Love and peace to you and yours………..gene

Gene,
You missed my question entirely.  I know that in the original all letters were capitalized.  Obviously, I was not copying how the original wrote “kurios”.  I was trying to use capitalization to make a point and distinquish between how the same word refers to the one Father, and also the one Son, and also other people.

Do you see in Mark 12:29 that the “one Lord” is referring to the “Most High God” or do you deny that.

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: “Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord”

Do you see that Joh 13:14 is saying that Jesus is the Lord and the teacher?

Joh 13:14
“If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Do you see in 1 Co 8:6 that the “one Lord” is Jesus Christ?

1Co 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

Do you see that in Eph 4:5 that there is “one Lord” and that refers to Jesus?

Eph 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Do you see that Mt 18:32 that the “lord” refers to a man that is not the Heavenly Father or Jesus:
Mt 18:32
“Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

When Jesus is referred to as our “one Lord”, you can tell that it speaks of Jesus and not the Heavenly Father because the context includes another, the Heavenly Father, and He is  called “God”.

Truly, my whole point of all of this is to say that there is “one Lord”-the Heavenly Father, yet there is another”one Lord” and that is his only Son.

In the similar way, there is “one God”-the Heavenly Father, yet there is another “God” and that is the only begotten Son.

See here how Jesus is our “great God and Savior”:
Tit 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

Not just in Titus but in 2 Peter also Jesus is “our God and Savior”
2Pe 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Do you see how Jesus is referred to as our great God and Savior, Gene?  That statement alone does not necessarily mean that Jesus is our most high God and Savior.  I believe that the Father of Jesus is our most high God and Savior.  Jesus is our God that had a beginning and not eternal. Still monotheism.  Our monotheistic God with an offspring.  His offspring serves as God to us under the direction of His Father-the only true God.

Peace and cheers,
LU

[Lightenup]

Hi Adam,
Jesus always was the “Mighty one” even as a baby. Remember the “word was God” or “mighty one” (as I seem to remember you saying) IN THE BEGINNING, then later the word became flesh. The “mighty one” that was with God in the beginning became flesh. Jesus was the “mighty one” when the word became flesh, not when the flesh was annointed or resurrected. The resurrection gave the mighty one His power but He already was the mighty one.

Blessings,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,

What was “mighty” about Jesus if he didn't have any power yet? It's a curious question because Jesus was indeed “mighty” BEFORE his resurrection. Scripture tells us that “….unto us a child is born…..and this child is the mighty God…..”. The CHILD is the mighty God.

While it is true that Jesus admitted he can do nothing without the Father, Jesus also was given life in himself just as the Father has life in himself. In Jesus was the light of life. This is a mighty and wonderful thing. Perhaps we are thinking of the word “mighty” differently. But to say that Jesus was not “mighty” until after his resurrection, imo, is to say too little of our Lord who was born King of Kings! 😉

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Ah…Kathi….forgive me. I read your post too quickly. I believe we are on the same page, maybe it is Adam's post that I should read.

That is what I get for only checking in briefly and posting too quickly. Sorry about the mix-up. But maybe my post will help someone down the line in some way?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 31 2008,23:08)

He has been appointed as the Lord of all by that one God who is the Father.

Yes, Adam, I agree.

God appointed Jesus to be our “Lord” and the “Annointed One” over us, not another “God” over us. I can see how Kathi comes to her final conclusion on this, however I do not agree.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 31 2008,18:52)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 31 2008,23:08) He has been appointed as the Lord of all by that one God who is the Father. Yes, Adam, I agree. God appointed Jesus to be our “Lord” and the “Annointed One” over us, not another “God” over us.  I can see how Kathi comes to her final conclusion on this, however I do not agree.

Hi Mandy or Adam,
Where does it say that God appointed Jesus to be our “Lord” or anointed Jesus as “Lord”. I know it says the following:

18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE * THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

Lu 2:34
And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed —

Ac 10:42
“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

Heb 1:2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

He was appointed heir of all things, judge of the living and the dead, for the fall and rise of many, and to preach the gospel to the poor, proclaim release to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed and to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord. No where do I find that He was anointed or appointed to be our “Lord”.

Mandy, you say:

Quote

God appointed Jesus to be our “Lord” and the “Annointed One” over us, not another “God” over us

Please show me your scripture to back that up.

I say that He was never “appointed” to be Lord or God. He was Lord and God from His beginning as the Logos. Never appointed, just was. See John 1:1

Thanks,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 31 2008,18:37)

Ah…Kathi….forgive me.  I read your post too quickly.  I believe we are on the same page, maybe it is Adam's post that I should read. That is what I get for only checking in briefly and posting too quickly.  Sorry about the mix-up.  But maybe my post will help someone down the line in some way? Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
I forgive you and am glad that you caught that:)

I would like you to tell me why Jesus is not your great God and Savior. He is to Paul and Titus and Simon Peter and those that have received a faith of the same kind as them.
Have you not received that faith yet? Do you have a different faith than them? Read these passages:

Tit 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

2Pe 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Please look closely at these scriptures Mandy.

Love,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:10-12 (in Context) Luke 2 (Whole Chapter).

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:35-37 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)

Kathi,
God “made” Jesus both Lord (a Lord is over other's in authority) and Christ (the annointed One) who came to reconcile us back to God.  So whether you want to use the terminology “appointed” or “made” I see little difference.  The bottom line is it was God's plan for this to be.

There are no clear scriptures that show us where Jesus was annointed anything prior to becoming a man.  Nor was he made a Lord over anything or anyone prior to becoming a man.  Was Jesus Lord at his birth?  Certainly!  Was he Lord before his birth?  Only speculation can tell as there are no scriptures other than perhaps John 1:1 that could possibly point to such an idea.  But even then it is inference.  We infer that the “Word” and the “Logos” are in fact Jesus, the preexistent Christ.  I am not willing to stretch the scriptures that far.

[Not3in1]

Hello again, Kathi.

I'm sure you are aware of the great many versions of the bible and how they interpret scriptures differently? Below is just one example of how this scripture can be interpreted differently –
Titus 2:13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The Glorious appearing of our great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ. Two. One is God, the other is Jesus. Just another interpretation from a very popular version of God's Word. Other scriptures that you listed can also be found to follow this KJV interpretaion.

So the muddy waters continue to be muddy. It is not absolutely clear. To say that I have a “different” faith than Paul and Peter because I do not see the scriptures as you do seems a bit self-righteous, imo, but I'll let it go because I've come to know your heart and I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound quite like that.

Take care,
Mandy

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 01 2008,17:03)

Luke 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:10-12 (in Context) Luke 2 (Whole Chapter). Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:35-37 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter) Kathi, God “made” Jesus both Lord (a Lord is over other's in authority) and Christ (the annointed One) who came to reconcile us back to God.  So whether you want to use the terminology “appointed” or “made” I see little difference.  The bottom line is it was God's plan for this to be. There are no clear scriptures that show us where Jesus was annointed anything prior to becoming a man.  Nor was he made a Lord over anything or anyone prior to becoming a man.  Was Jesus Lord at his birth?  Certainly!  Was he Lord before his birth?  Only speculation can tell as there are no scriptures other than perhaps John 1:1 that could possibly point to such an idea.  But even then it is inference.  We infer that the “Word” and the “Logos” are in fact Jesus, the preexistent Christ.  I am not willing to stretch the scriptures that far.

Mandy!  You say you don't want to stretch John 1:1 that far.
But if yoy take other Scriptures like Col. 1:15-18 and Rev. 3:14 it makes perfect sense to me.
Jesus did exist before He became a man. He was everything to the Father. Read Proverbs 8:22-30 and have an open mind.  Wisdom is what God is, not a being. He was the Fathers delight.
Peace and Love Irene

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