Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
We have to give credit to God not to any human imagination. God created Adam in His image and same thing He could do in the case of Jesus whom also I believe a created being because any being born to creation (human) is nothing but creation just like you and me are also part of this creation. We can not nullify the law of creation of God. We have to see the greatness of God in giving glory to sons of men as mentioned in Heb 2:5-11.

5 “It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But there is a place where someone has testified:
  “What is man that you are mindful of him,
     the son of man that you care for him?
7You made him a little[a] lower than the angels;
     you crowned him with glory and honor
   8 and put everything under his feet.”
   In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers”

Jesus had to be human like you and me, God has glorified man Jesus the promised Messiah not any preexisting Godly being. The 'word' became flesh in Jesus the man. He is still called the Son of Man in his glorified status that is sitting on at the right hand side of God. He is the man-mediator between One God and men. If you don't beleive this we don't have any hope in God's everlasting love towards us and His supremacy in this creation by which He can exalt a human to the level of His glory. It was Father's good will that fullness of divinity rests in glorified Man Jesus not that he himself is God. We also will be cofirmed day-by-day into the same image of God. When Jesus comes again we see him as he is because we also will be like him as mentioned in 1 Jn 3:1-2

1 “See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”.

I praise God for giving us such heavenly hope of becoming His children with the image of Himself. I see the greatness of God in Jesus not any mystery of creating another God by the side of One God even in the present glorified status of Jesus the man.
This is all what I wanted to share.
Blessings
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…….AMEN BROTHER……Jesus was 100% man, came into existence at His berth, foreordained before the foundations of the earth, in God's plan and purpose and at the right time came into being. You got it right brother.

love and peace to you and yours Adam……….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
You quote Heb 2
7You made [1642] him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor

“Made” does not relate to his conception and birth

Number 1642
Transliteration:
elattoo {el-at-to'-o}
Word Origin:
from 1640
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
make lower 2, decrease 1

Total: 3
Definition:
to make less or inferior: in dignity
to be made less or inferior: in dignity
to decrease in authority or popularity

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
'Made' also means creation please see the verse Jn 1:3. Do you agree that Jesus the man was created through his birth in a woman as per Gal 4:4?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Different word from the one being discussed.

Jn1
Chapter 1
3 All things were made [1096] by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made[1096].

Number 1096
Transliteration:
ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
Word Origin:
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
TDNT:
1:681,117
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid 3361 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not tr 14, misc 4, vr done 2

Total: 630
Definition:
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public
to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought
to become, be made

[Irene]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2008,19:05)

Adam…….AMEN BROTHER……Jesus was 100% man, came into existence at His berth, foreordained before the foundations of the earth, in God's plan and purpose and at the right time came into being. You got it right brother. love and peace to you and yours Adam……….gene

Wrong. Check out those Scriptures in Col 1:15-18 He created all, so He had to be there in the very beginning to create all. It says by Him and for Him. No mind play. Also in
Rev. 3:14 It says that He is the ” FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
JOHN 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS GOD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
Proverbs 8:22-30 Just read it. I have put these scriptures up so many times, and I am getting really tired of doing so.
Genesis says let us make man in our image. Who was us and our?
IF YOU SAY THAT HE WAS ONLY IN THE PLAN YOU ARE INTERPATING SCIPTURES, NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.
I GO BY THE WORD OF GOD.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 06 2008,21:45)

Hi Nick, 'Made' also means creation please see the verse Jn 1:3. Do you agree that Jesus the man was created through his birth in a woman as per Gal 4:4?

Hi GM,
Gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

So the order is
God sent forth his son.
Then
Made of a woman

[gollamudi]

Hi brother,
Gal 4:
4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law”,

Son has to be born before he comes into existing. God sent His son through a birth process in a woman I don't see any difference because Jesus was conceived he was not born in a mystified way like in any mythology where preexisting gods enter human bodies as we call them incarnation. You and I agree that Jeus was a created being like us but not any mystically born preexisting being. See the verses I quoted in Heb 2, Jesus is from the same family of humans not from any other family like angels or spirits.

Please think over.
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
God exists.
He was not born.
Angels exist
they were not born…

What gives??

[gollamudi]

No, you are wrong in saying “angels exists” in fact they were created by God. I never told that they were born. But Jesus was born to a woman a created being I mean directly related to the created man Adam.
Blessings
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…..Amen you are right Jesus was a full human being came into existence when he was born through Mary's womb.

Peace to you…..gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 07 2008,14:30)

No, you are wrong in saying “angels exists” in fact they were created by God. I never told that they were born. But Jesus was born to a woman a created being I mean directly related to the created man Adam. Blessings Adam

Hi GM,
So men cannot come into existence except by being created as men? God is sovereign and He seems to have chosen a different way for the man from heaven.

[chosenone]

May I give my opinion?
Jesus existed before his earthly coming.
He (Jesus), was “First born of every creature” (Co.1:15-16). He (Jesus) was also “Gods' creative original” (Rev.3:14). These two scriptures tell us that the first thing God created was Jesus Christ.
Now all was created by the power of God, through Jesus Christ. …for in Him is all created, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships,or sovereignties,or authorities, all is created through Him, and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. (Col.1:16-17)
Now also …to head up all in the Christ – both that in the heavens and that in the earth – in Him in Who our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose the One Who is poerating all in accord with the councel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. (Eph.1:10-12).
“I am the Alpha and Omega, (Rev.1:8). Meaning “the first and the last”. So in summing up, The “alpha” meaning He was the first thing God created. And the Omega, meaning the last thing God creates, the end of creation, the “consummation” (1Cor.15:28) …when Christ turns over all sovereignty and authority, and power to God. And He Himself will be subject to God. And God will “be All in all”.
This is my understanding. Hope it helps.

God Bless, Jerry.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2008,15:13)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 07 2008,14:30) No, you are wrong in saying “angels exists” in fact they were created by God. I never told that they were born. But Jesus was born to a woman a created being I mean directly related to the created man Adam. Blessings Adam Hi GM, So men cannot come into existence except by being created as men?  God is sovereign and He seems to have chosen a different way for the man from heaven.

Hi brother Nick,
You seem to misundestand other's vew so quickly and give problem to others so that they can not share liberally. See my posts where have I said men can not come into existence without being created? You are infererring in that way. I only told men are created beings as the first man was created and all others came into existence by birth through the created man. What is wrong in my understanding? Your doctrine seems to be different from the scriptures when you believe all men are not created beings.
Please think over.
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
A new start.
A new Adam.

[Irene]

Quote (chosenone @ July 07 2008,15:19)

May I give my opinion?     Jesus existed before his earthly coming.       He (Jesus), was “First born of every creature” (Co.1:15-16).  He (Jesus) was also “Gods' creative original” (Rev.3:14).  These two scriptures tell us that the first thing God created was Jesus Christ.       Now all was created by the power of God, through Jesus Christ.  …for in Him is all created, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships,or sovereignties,or authorities, all is created through Him, and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. (Col.1:16-17)       Now also …to head up all in the Christ – both that in the heavens and that in the earth – in Him in Who our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose the One Who is poerating all in accord with the councel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. (Eph.1:10-12).     “I am the Alpha and Omega, (Rev.1:8).  Meaning “the first and the last”.  So in summing up, The “alpha” meaning He was the first thing God created.  And the Omega, meaning the last thing God creates, the end of creation, the “consummation” (1Cor.15:28) …when Christ turns over all sovereignty and authority, and power to God.  And He Himself will be subject to God.  And God will “be All in all”.     This is my understanding.  Hope it helps. God Bless,  Jerry.

Great Post and I agree with it. Keep up the good work.
Peace and Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi brother,
Yes, New beginning…
New creation is through resurrection from the dead in which Jesus became the first fruits of those who will be resurrected from the dead.

you have not answered my query: whether all human beings are created beings or not?
Thanks
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 07 2008,19:35)

Hi brother, Yes, New beginning… New creation is through resurrection from the dead in which Jesus became the first fruits of those who will be resurrected from the dead. you have not answered my query: whether all human beings are created beings or not? Thanks Adam

All Human being are made out of the dust of the earth. It says however that Jesus was the first of all creation, so after Jesus all other beings were created by Jesus. If that only means that He created celestial beings only I don't know.
Through Him and for Him it says in Col. 1. Since we as Humans were made out of the dust of the earth, I really don't know if you would consider it a created being.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Indeed he is firstborn from the dead.
It is the will of God that he be first in all things.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That process begins while we live.
We are conformed in our minds and hearts and we await the recption of a body like his.

[gollamudi]

Amen and Amen to that post brother Nick.

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