Preexistence

Participant

Hi,
Scripture says Jesus is a man.
He is body, soul and spirit[1Thess5]
Men are of God's breath into the dust of the earth.

But God can see men as being just of the dust.

Gen3
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

OR being spirit

1Cor15
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

But scripture also says of the Christ

“He is the same yesterday, today and forever”

The argument is whether it is as a dust man or as a soul/spirit. Jesus is not no longer of the dust being clothed with the new heavenly body we too will inherit at the first resurrection. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor15].

So it is as soul/spirit that he is the same. So why fret about seeing him only as flesh when scripture shows that being before his flesh manifestation?

June 29, 2008 at 1:59 am#94758

Participant

Hi All,
Wonderful discussions, we are right on brothers. I think Klondike has made us to study this complicated thing of Jesus birth once again. All your questions are valuable. God can create man and things to come into existence but He can never involve Himself in begetting some mortal beings by Giving His so called sperm which is mortal in nature it is against His nature. God creates any thing by the power of His Spiirt just as He did in the beginning by His spoken word and by His Spirit, as per Ps 33:6.
I don't agree with the assumption that Jesus was in the loins of God just like Abraham. This is too much to assume that God has loins that somebody may go to another extreme and say God can involve Himself personally in conception process of human Jesus (I am not talking about the resurrection here).

As Nick says there is no difference with Jesus and our selves in regards to complete humanity(body, soul and spirit) if so what advantage He got over us also if he has received the Spirit of anointing at Jordan but not at his birth?

I believe that the first Adam became living soul by the giving of the breath or his own spirit from God when he was created and all other human beings must have inherited or passed on their invidual spirits from Adam and Eve … so on from their own parents but not directly from God that's why they inherited the sinful nature as well as the concept of dead in spirit (this is only my opinion). In the case of Jesus, he must have foreknown by God in His plan before the foundations of the world that he should take birth through a virgin(woman) when the fullness of time prescribed for him comes and God must have created human sperm(DNA) by the power of Holy Spirit and put in Mary's womb and His(God's) Spirit of son-ship must have been given to Jesus directly(during the conception) from God since he can not inherit (Adam's sin) spirit of bondage to redeem us.

Now the question of word becoming flesh as Gene and WJ (now tells) must have come and dwelled in Jesus the man in the form of Spirit at Jordan. Jesus became life-giving Spirit not by some God's sperm but by the permanent fullness of divinity now rests in Jesus on his glorification that is through resurrection by the power of God's Spirit. We are also born of Spirit of God now in a limited sense and we are being changed into the same image of God like Jesus and we will be fully grown into the same image when we leave this temporary abode and have our literal rebirth in the spirit on our resurrection.

One thing you all have to remember is that Jesus is the body(church) for the One and only God's indwelling not that he himself is God. We(church or believers) are told that we are parts of one body of Christ where God pleases to indwell. We will be co-heirs with Jesus our elder brother in God's eternal blessings and even in glory that is given to Jesus.
These are my thoughts, please think over and correct me whereever I have gone wrong.
You are most welcome
Adam

June 29, 2008 at 3:27 am#94782

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,13:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2008,20:45)

Hello Mandy,
Transferring someone into a different body is not at all unlike something God would do if you realize that believers will also be transferred into a new body in the future. We are going to “morph” into another form. When we get our new body, it will be a spiritual body, not a conceived body. I don't know if we are told how that spiritual body comes about but I believe it will be the new vessel for our spirit. We will go from one body to the next. From the corruptible to the incorruptible. (I am not teaching reincarnation here. We aren't going from one corruptible body to the next corruptible body to the next corruptible body and so on.) We will also experience the weird and wonderful chemistry change. The Son of God and humans are much more than “projects” for God, we are His children. We rejoice that we will be transferred into a new vessel. No more arthritis or pain in your knees.:) It is actually pretty awesome to think about the whole idea of getting transferred, not something to downplay. It would make a great NOVA special, eh? It would likely be even more amazing than conception.

Love,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Yes, when we are raised we will be like him. Like him how? Adam was from the earth and has an earthly body, Jesus was from heaven and is as heavenly bodies. Yes, we will be “transfered” as you say, into our new spiritual bodies.

However, concluding from the scriptures that Jesus was “transfered” prior to his conception in Mary cannot be support sufficiently through the gospels or any other scripture. Certainly the theory holds no weight in the OT.

True conception will not allow for these strange ideas.

Hi there Mandy,
What would be your definition of the spirit of man? When do we receive this spirit and how do we get it, in your opinion? Do we have some spirit making chromosomes within us? Is our spirit unique or of the generic type-one size fits all. What part of us gets transferred into our heavenly bodies? Please let me know your thoughts on this.
K

June 29, 2008 at 6:48 am#94826

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2008,15:27)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,13:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2008,20:45)

Love,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

True conception will not allow for these strange ideas.

Hi Kathi,

What we will be is not yet known, so there is absolutely no answers to your questions at this time.

I guess you will know at the exact moment that I know!

:;):

June 29, 2008 at 6:51 am#94827

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,13:59)

This is too much to assume that God has loins that somebody may go to another extreme and say God can involve Himself personally in conception process of human Jesus

Hi Adam,

Does this idea in some way offend you?

Do you not believe that all things are possible with God?

Would it be too much for God to ask to have a son of his very own like Abraham was promised (a son “coming from his own body”, in his “likeness”?).

June 29, 2008 at 8:12 am#94836

Participant

Hi not3,
God is in heaven.
As with all of God's work within creation it is by His Spirit.

Mt1
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

June 29, 2008 at 9:19 am#94838

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2008,18:51)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,13:59)

This is too much to assume that God has loins that somebody may go to another extreme and say God can involve Himself personally in conception process of human Jesus

Hi Adam,

Does this idea in some way offend you?

Do you not believe that all things are possible with God?

Would it be too much for God to ask to have a son of his very own like Abraham was promised (a son “coming from his own body”, in his “likeness”?).

Hi Mandy,
I agree with you that God can do any thing but not against His own nature that is having mortality in Himself(as you refer to Godly sperm) who is invisible, immortal and Spirit in nature. Here only we differ I know it is very difficult to prove the conception of Jesus but please see what Nick has just quoted above “Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit” no sperm or DNA or whatsoever these are simply our assumptions IMO. God creates any thing by His Spirit as He has done in the beginning. We were only told that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit but we have not been given with lots of details with which we are breaking our heads to prove what we assume. Let us leave it to God that he made Jesus to be conceived of Mary. The Spirit of Son-Ship of Jesus might have been given from God that may be the relation of Jesus with His father not any flesh and blood as we imagine in so many ways.

I don't believe in any literal human son-ship of Jesus with God but I do believe in literal son-ship of Jesus in Spirit because God is Spirit in nature and now Jesus has become Spirit in nature that's why Paul says 2 Cor 3:17-18

17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit, 12 and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit”

Also see Rom 1:3-4

3 “the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

Jesus has been declared as Son of God by the power of the Spirit and resurrection (I believe in literal sense) but not by any flesh and blood relation with God Almighty. If so we make another mythology of gods can have sex with Human females and give birth to godly beings what we believe in our Hindu mythology here. I don't think Christianity accepts this theory.

Sorry Sis I have questioned your beliefs. But some times we need to release our inhibitions to know some thing new and different and nearer to truth,
Love to you
Adam

June 29, 2008 at 9:49 am#94839

Participant

Hi GM,
2 Cor 3:17-18

The Spirit is one.
Christ was given the Spirit and since he has given up his own at death now lives in that Spirit in God.
So when Jesus said he would send us the Spirit and that the Father and himself would come to us that is what he meant. The Spirit is of Jesus and the Spirit is of God.

June 29, 2008 at 9:55 am#94841

Participant

I agree with you Nick, thanks for that.

June 29, 2008 at 9:59 am#94842

Participant

Hi GM,
You say
“Also see Rom 1:3-4

Compare also 1 Peter 1
” 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ”

and Acts 3
“22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise [450] up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up [450] his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Number 450
Transliteration:
anistemi {an-is'-tay-mee}
Word Origin:
from 303 and 2476
TDNT:
1:368,60
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
arise 38, rise 19, rise up 16, rise again 13, raise up 11, stand up 8, raise up again 2, misc 5

Total: 112
Definition:
to cause to rise up, raise up
raise up from laying down
to raise up from the dead
to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
to rise, stand up
of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
of persons seated
of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
of those who prepare themselves for a journey
of the dead
at arise, appear, stand forth
of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
to rise up against any one

The resurrection of Jesus Christ gives hope to us that the one spoken of by Moses is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He has been proven to be the promised one to be raised up … from the dead.

June 29, 2008 at 10:02 am#94843

Participant

I once agree with that, but any new thing you wanted to share in this?

June 29, 2008 at 10:05 am#94844

Participant

ps,
Compare the verse quoted in Deut18
“15 The LORD thy God will raise up[6965] unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;”

Number 6965
Transliteration:
quwm {koom}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
1999
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
(stood 0, rise 0, etc…) up 240, arise 211, raise 47, establish 27, stand 27, perform 25, confirm 9, again 5, set 5, stablish 3, surely 3, continue 3, sure 2, abide 1, accomplish 1, misc 19

Total: 628
Definition:
to rise, arise, stand, rise up, stand up
(Qal)
to arise
to arise (hostile sense)
to arise, become powerful
to arise, come on the scene
to stand
to maintain oneself
to be established, be confirmed
to stand, endure
to be fixed
to be valid
to be proven
to be fulfilled
to persist
to be set, be fixed
(Piel)
to fulfil
to confirm, ratify, establish, impose
(Polel) to raise up
(Hithpael) to raise oneself, rise up
(Hiphil)
to cause to arise, raise
to raise, set up, erect, build
to raise up, bring on the scene
to raise up, rouse, stir up, investigate
to raise up, constitute
to cause to stand, set, station, establish
to make binding
to carry out, give effect to
(Hophal) to be raised up
TDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old Testament

June 29, 2008 at 10:08 am#94845

Participant

Do you want to say Jesus was prophet like Moses? Yes I agree with that. Please don't give so much dictionary things here. Share in simple words what you understand I like that more than copying some thing other than verses.
Thanks
Adam

June 29, 2008 at 4:16 pm#94859

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2008,20:12)

Hi not3,
God is in heaven.
As with all of God's work within creation it is by His Spirit.

“….what is conceived in her is of the holy Ghost.”

Jesus is of God.

Yes, this is true.

Son's are “of” their father's.

June 29, 2008 at 4:55 pm#94862

Participant

Good morning, Adam.

Quote

I agree with you that God can do any thing but not against His own nature that is having mortality in Himself(as you refer to Godly sperm) who is invisible, immortal and Spirit in nature.

Jesus is in God's image as the representative of the invisible God.
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
I don't believe this would be possible or even true if God saw fit that their natures were not complimentary in some way. Further, it is my belief that they are now alike because Jesus is the literal Son of God. Jesus is the bridge between what is divine and what is human.

Through Jesus we now have reconciliation.

rec·on·cil·i·a·tion Audio Help /ˌrɛkənˌsɪliˈeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[rek-uhn-sil-ee-ey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an act of reconciling or the state of being reconciled.
2. the process of making consistent or compatible

A key word here being “compatible”.

Quote

“Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit” no sperm or DNA or whatsoever these are simply our assumptions IMO.

I know this is a popular opinion of those who are offended by God's desire to have a Son. But I am not offended and I can clearly see in scripture where having a son (from one's own body) to leave an inheritance to is very important. We know how sons are conceived and born. Scripture doesn't tell us that Jesus' conception was any different than a normal conception. God is the Father and he conceived with mary by his Spirit, because he is Spirit. That is the only difference. Everything else was status quo. We should not jump to the conclusion then that the process of conception and pregnacy changed altogether.

Quote

God creates any thing by His Spirit as He has done in the beginning.

Adam, this is a very good point to bring up. Have you ever wondered why God didn't just choose a man and put his Spirit in him to be the Messiah? Why did God choose conception and birth to bring His Son into the world? Was there something he wanted to impart to his Son? Good question….

Quote

The Spirit of Son-Ship of Jesus might have been given from God that may be the relation of Jesus with His father not any flesh and blood as we imagine in so many ways.

I'm sorry, but I just do not believe this. I believe that Jesus is the true Son of God. I see this brought out in scripture. It is a simple truth that many stumble over.

If Jesus was the true biological Son of God – how would that affect you? What would change for you? Would you be offended that God could be a part of such a human experience?

Quote

Jesus has been declared as Son of God by the power of the Spirit and resurrection (I believe in literal sense) but not by any flesh and blood relation with God Almighty

Jesus was declared a king at birth before he had accomplished a thing for his Father.

Jesus called God his “Father” before he was baptized.

Jesus had no earthly father. If this is so, then he had to be “fathered” by someone, correct? That someone is God! I am not offended by this.

Quote

I don't think Christianity accepts this theory.

Perhaps you are right about this, but then again, there were many who could not accept Jesus' teachings and walked away from him. They said his teachings were “too hard” and they were offended by his suggestions that he was the true bread and life from God.

Quote

Sorry Sis I have questioned your beliefs. But some times we need to release our inhibitions to know some thing new and different and nearer to truth,

My dear brother, never be sorry for questioning me or anyone else. This is why we are here on this forum – to test our theories, to learn from other's. Like everyone else, I want the truth. If I am in grave error that it is my brother's duty to point me in the right direction. It is up to me to prove that the direction is the correct one.

Love you,
Mandy

June 29, 2008 at 7:36 pm#94882

Participant

Hi GM,
Jesus was proven to be the promised prophet of God Moses spoke about
because he was raised from the dead and that is our hope.

1 Corinthians 15:13
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;.

Only recognisable then after his resurrection such is the irony of God
Who sought men who would respond by faith, not knowledge.

June 29, 2008 at 8:04 pm#94885

GeneBalthrop

Participant

to All….Scripture defines what FAITH is , ” faith is the substance of things hoped for , The (evidence) of things (NOT) seen. That does not imply there is no Knowledge connected with Faith, To say Faith has no Knowledge involved with it is pure foolishness in MY Opinion. Faith is the given, KNOWLEDGE BY GOD to a person that causes him to respond to God's will. I mean come on people surely you all know that.

June 29, 2008 at 8:41 pm#94890