Preexistence

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Putting aside Jesus words, “before Abraham, I am” and “Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”, lets entertain your notion that Jesus Christ is a created being approximately 2000 years old. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, So pre-2000 years ago, there was no being in heaven that the fullness of deity dwelt in. If there was, who?

AMEN! That's right. There was no such being!
Now Jesus of Nazareth has come, died, resurrected & been glorified; now in Heaven there is such a being at the ONE GOD's right hand. AMEN!

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. So per-2000 years ago, there was no image of the invisible God. Does that mean that belief in God was by faith and not sight?

In fact, before Adam was created there was no human being who was in the image of GOD.
Granted in light of Gen 1.26, I guess the angelic beings shared that image. Nevertheless, Hebrews Chapter 1-3 assert the fact that Jesus was not (ever) and is not an angelic being.

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. So pre-2000 years ago, no one has seen the Father, and then a baby is born, his butt smacked, and he sees this invisible Father?

AMEN! That's right. The only beings that “beheld” the Father's face were the angels. [Matt 18.10]

So when John records 4 times that no one at anytime (i.e. human beings) have ever seen GOD, he means it!!
John 1.18, 5.37, 1 John 4.12, 20

Jesus therefore hath “seen” the Father in a definite unique way.

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. So pre-2000 years ago, nothing existed and then when he was born, all things came into existence and consistence.

The context of Colossians 1:17ff has absolute nothing to do with the Genesis creation. The context is about the coming, future Kingdom of GOD i.e. the new creation.
v. 13 … and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son
v. 16 … whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
The context is about the Kingdom of GOD with its corresponding thrones/dominions/principalities/powers to come

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. So the author of life was created 2000 years ago?

AMEN! Jesus is the author/prince/archegos of life because GOD made him so, 2000 years ago.

(John 5:26)  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(John 17:1-3)  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The above says a lot, but can you deny that it is not saying glory to God through Jesus before all ages?

Glory indeed belongeth to Almighty GOD before time as we know it, began.
But as for now & forevermore this glory is expressed through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This form of expression i.e. through Jesus Christ our Lord; began 2000 years ago; because that is the time that the Lord Jesus began to exist.
There can be no glory expressed through a son until the son exists! Before that, glory be to GOD alone!

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

John 12:40-42 40″ HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE (B)HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

Can you deny that Isaiah who lived pre-2000 years ago, didn't see his glory and speak of him?

Read it again. Isaiah saw GOD's glory in Isaiah and spoke of the rejection of GOD's agent.

(John 12:37-42)  But though he [Jesus] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: [Jesus] 38 That the saying of Esaias [Isaiah] the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord [the arm of YAHWEH, Isa 53.1]
been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias,
[Isaiah said these things in Isaiah Ch. 6 when he saw Adonai high and lifted up.]
when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[Isaiah was seeing Adonai YAHWEH's glory and was speaking of the rejection of Adonai in Isaiah Chapter 6.
After it was said that the people would be blind & hardened, Isaiah asked
(Isa 6:11)  Then said I, Lord [ADONAI], how long? …
Isaiah was addressing Adonai GOD Almighty not Jesus!!]

42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him [Jesus]; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him [Jesus], lest they should
be put out of the synagogue:

Thus Isaiah foresaw when & why & how people would reject GOD; by rejecting His agent/arm, the Messiah.
Isaiah said these things when he saw GOD in His glory. It is then that he spoke of people rejecting GOD via His agent!

The rejection of Jesus the Messiah is the fulfilment of these Isaiah verses because Jesus totally represents Adonai YAHWEH, the Lord GOD.
Nevertheless, it was GOD's glory that Isaiah saw.
The Messiah wasn't even conceived yet, much less in existence.

The key to this is Agency!!

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,11:05)

Can you see why some here do not hold to your belief on this?

Nope!  

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,22:19)

Wonderful, both preexistence believers clash with each other.

Hi GM,
Is division your hope?
Is that attitude of the ONE SPIRIT?
WE do help one another towards understanding.
Voyagers not experts.

[Lightenup]

Hi Adam Pastor,
Do you worship the Father of Christ and do you worship Christ as well?
LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2008,06:51)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,22:19) Wonderful, both preexistence believers clash with each other. Hi GM, Is division your hope? Is that attitude of the ONE SPIRIT? WE do help one another towards understanding. Voyagers not experts.

Come on Nick,
Don't be so much serious, you should have some lighter moods even in Christian life. Otherwise also what is that you both are going to prove your dogma of preexistence or what else?

[NickHassan]

Think about it GM.
There are no factions in Christ Jesus

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick we are only debating a topic no factions here. Let's close this deviation at this point come to the subject.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Prov 30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Do you think the Son mentioned here was not actually a son at all yet?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2008,03:08)

Hi Adam Pastor, Do you worship the Father of Christ and do you worship Christ as well? LU

FYI

The Worship of Christ
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/12/worship-of-christ.html

Can we “worship” Jesus Christ?
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006….st.html

Notwithstanding, LU, let's stay on subject.  

[Not3in1]

Hi t8,

I had this whole thing ready to post for you regarding all the scriptures you listed, but Adam P did such a wonderful job answering you that I don't even need to add anything (sounds like a cop-out, I know, but I'm tired tonight and I really didn't have anything new to add that Adam didn't already touch on).

However in looking at the verses that you listed, and reading them over again I still stand by what I said to Irene – nowhere are there any scriptures that speak of the preexistent-spirit-son-Jesus. All the scriptures that preexistent believer's quote as referring to Jesus are merely suggestive of Jesus. The verses and passages can be read all sorts of different ways (and have been here on this forum). Nothing is clear. And I believe that if Jesus really preexisted and had this spirit life before he was born, and didn't really undergo true conception but in fact experienced a form of incarnation, then there would have been clearer teachings on it. You know, like in the gospels where it says Jesus was born. Now that's clear.

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2008,16:41)

Hi t8, I had this whole thing ready to post for you regarding all the scriptures you listed, but Adam P did such a wonderful job answering you that I don't even need to add anything (sounds like a cop-out, I know, but I'm tired tonight and I really didn't have anything new to add that Adam didn't already touch on). However in looking at the verses that you listed, and reading them over again I still stand by what I said to Irene – nowhere are there any scriptures that speak of the preexistent-spirit-son-Jesus.  All the scriptures that preexistent believer's quote as referring to Jesus are merely suggestive of Jesus.  The verses and passages can be read all sorts of different ways (and have been here on this forum).  Nothing is clear.  And I believe that if Jesus really preexisted and had this spirit life before he was born, and didn't really undergo true conception but in fact experienced a form of incarnation, then there would have been clearer teachings on it.  You know, like in the gospels where it says Jesus was born.  Now that's clear.

Mandy! Tell me how in the world can you read
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 any other way then what it says. I have not read Adams post yet, I will, but I just want to say something real quick about what you just said.
I challenge you to show me how you can explain it. Since you are to tired tonight , we can do it tomorrow, O.K.
Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam Pastor…….good post I see it that way also. There is a difference in worshiping Jesus for His position and worshiping God the Father. Both are to be honored though each for who and what He is.

gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Irene @ June 26 2008,16:54)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2008,16:41) Hi t8, I had this whole thing ready to post for you regarding all the scriptures you listed, but Adam P did such a wonderful job answering you that I don't even need to add anything (sounds like a cop-out, I know, but I'm tired tonight and I really didn't have anything new to add that Adam didn't already touch on). However in looking at the verses that you listed, and reading them over again I still stand by what I said to Irene – nowhere are there any scriptures that speak of the preexistent-spirit-son-Jesus.  All the scriptures that preexistent believer's quote as referring to Jesus are merely suggestive of Jesus.  The verses and passages can be read all sorts of different ways (and have been here on this forum).  Nothing is clear.  And I believe that if Jesus really preexisted and had this spirit life before he was born, and didn't really undergo true conception but in fact experienced a form of incarnation, then there would have been clearer teachings on it.  You know, like in the gospels where it says Jesus was born.  Now that's clear. Mandy! Tell me how in the world can you read Col. 1:15  and Rev. 3:14 any other way then what it says. I have not read Adams post yet, I will, but I just want to say something real quick about what you just said. I challenge you to show me how you can explain it. Since you are to tired tonight , we can do it tomorrow, O.K. Love Irene

Sure, Irene I'll tackle those verses for you tomorrow. My understanding is very much inline with the Biblical Unitarians. I will probably use some tools from BU sources to explain my understanding of the verses you quote in regards to preexistence.

I can see how you get your view, I just think the other view is clearer to me.

Look for me tomorrow, OK? I'm going to bed early tonight. I'm grumpy….it's been a long, long day.

Love ya,
Mandy

[Irene]

Adam Pastor Post is all about worshipping Jesus and has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. That is a completely different subject.
Irene

[Not3in1]

Irene,
Perhaps you were looking at the links that he provided.

His post on preexistence is the one that is directed to t8. It's good, give it a read!

[Irene]

O,K. Mandy till tomorrow. Good night, dream of better days. Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2008,15:34)

Hi GM, Prov 30 4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Do you think the Son mentioned here was not actually a son at all yet?

Hi Nick,
They are all prophetic verses you have quoted. Jesus is the one who has ascended as a son of man he will also descend at his second coming. Please rememeber one thing no son of man can live in heaven except he is resurrected and born again in spirit.
Peace to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 26 2008,04:56)

t8,June wrote: Putting aside Jesus words, “before Abraham, I am” and “Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”, lets entertain your notion that Jesus Christ is a created being approximately 2000 years old. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, So pre-2000 years ago, there was no being in heaven that the fullness of deity dwelt in. If there was, who?

AMEN! That's right. There was no such being!
Now Jesus of Nazareth has come, died, resurrected & been glorified; now in Heaven there is such a being at the ONE GOD's right hand. AMEN!

So pre-2000 years ago, such a being was not at God's right hand side until approximately 33 AD give or take a variation of decades.

Hmmmm.

Can I ask you who the firstborn of all creation is if Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation.  Who was the first to come into existence, if it wasn't the Word that was with God. If it wasn't Wisdom, then was it an angel? Maybe Satan in his previous role, or Michael, or what?

Who is the fistborn of all creation? The first of God's works, if it isn't Jesus. Who sat at God's right hand side before Jesus did?

Some valid questions that need to be asked regarding this theory.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 26 2008,04:56)

In fact, before Adam was created there was no human being who was in the image of GOD. Granted in light of Gen 1.26, I guess the angelic beings shared that image. Nevertheless, Hebrews Chapter 1-3 assert the fact that Jesus was not (ever) and is not an angelic being.

So there were only angels who displayed the invisible God.

Hmmmmm.

I cannot agree because Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of all creation. Not the lastborn.

In heaven, I would expect to see Jesus and God's glory, but not God himself. Only the son has seen him and can declare him. That is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

But pre-2000 years ago, according to your theory, no one saw the fullness of God's glory in bodily form. They jsut sw God's glory in each other and creation.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 26 2008,04:56)

(John 5:26)  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (John 17:1-3)  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The hour has come to glorify the son.

Isn't that the same glory that he had with the Father before the world began?

If so, lets look at this glory.
1) Given power over all flesh
2) To give eternal life

Doesn't that fit perfectly with a Jesus who emptied himself of his former glory and came as a lowly man, and humbled himself to death and went to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was.

He is now seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Who was at God's side when he created all things? So his former glory would seem to indicate that he was at God's right hand side.

JOHN 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Compare with
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Compare with
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Compare with
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30

[gollamudi]

Hi T8,
Please see my post also you may get some more points to question.
Thanks
Adam

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