Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,10:48)

Hi GB, You missed the question. Our rebirth has nothing to do with the flesh. What of the Son of God, the firstborn of creation?

Hi GB,
You divert.
Please look at the question.
Was the begettal of Jesus as the Son of God of the flesh?
Ours is not.
We follow him.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……check out the site Adam Pastor Posted it will answer some of your questions.

gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
We know of the human life of Jesus, the son of man, and how his arrival on earth was predicted.
That was never the issue.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..the post deals with His preexistence. did you read it?

gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2008,10:46)

Nick…….Jesus was exactly one of Us in every way without any difference and the same God working in Him is working in all who have His spirit in them according to the manifold gifts it produces in our lives. It All (ONE GOD) the FATHER Doing it in Us and in Jesus. No more no less. Exactly the same. Jesus is my brother from the same place i came from and has the same Father as i do, and when he returns i will be (EXACTLY AS HE IS)>For i shall see Him as he is. imo…..gene IMO………..gene

Hi brother Gene,
Wonderful posts all together, you are right on brother. Infact Nick is forgetting that the Natural body is first not the Spiritual one (1 Cori 15:46). Jesus's human body is his first one not his spiritual body with which he is living now. Please remember Jesus' words to Nicodemus in Jn 3:3-8

3 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.'
8 The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Here Jesus was telling that one should be born of water or of flesh first and then of the spirit. Obviously born of flesh is first not the spiritual one which comes later. Infact we have not born of spirit yet literally only Jesus is born of spirit literally now. We all will be born of Spirit at our resurrection. At present we are born again in Spirit in a symbolic way not in literal way where our mortal bodies take over immortal spiritual bodies. That has yet to follow.

I believe there was no preexistence of Jesus as some spirit being before his natural birth on this earth. If so it will be against God's own creation law where an immortal spirit being seized to exist and takes on mortal body. That is all possible in any mythology but not in Bible.
Peace to all
Adam

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2008,14:07)

Nick…..the post deals with His preexistence. did you read it? gene

Hi GB,
Yes.
It only spoke of Jesus as a man. That is only one way of viewing him
Rom 1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

[gollamudi]

So Nick, where is preexistence in that passage you just quoted?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
He was declared to be the Son of God with power….

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,14:33)

So Nick, where is preexistence in that passage you just quoted?

Not all Scriptures deal with the Preexsisting of Jesus. Some deal with what He was while He was a man. But I know that there are other Scriptures that do deal with the preexsisting of Him.
In Christrian Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 25 2008,11:11)

Greetings one & all A brother by the name of Sean Finnegan has written an excellent article on the topic of the pre-existence of Jesus in the book of John. Enjoy!! Pre-existence in the Gospel of John by Sean Finnegan

Excellent, thank you!

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,14:31)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2008,14:07) Nick…..the post deals with His preexistence. did you read it? gene Hi GB, Yes. It only spoke of Jesus as a man. That is only one way of viewing him Rom 1 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Yes the article spoke of Jesus' beginning as a man.

Where does it speak of Jesus' beginning as a spirit?

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,16:58)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,14:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2008,14:07) Nick…..the post deals with His preexistence. did you read it? gene Hi GB, Yes. It only spoke of Jesus as a man. That is only one way of viewing him Rom 1 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: Yes the article spoke of Jesus' beginning as a man. Where does it speak of Jesus' beginning as a spirit?

Mandy John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. Later it says and the Word became flesh. If you understand that God is a title it is so much easier to understand and not think that we are talking about a trinity here. That would contradict other Scriptures. We should take line upon line and precepts upon precepts.
And you do know other Scriptures that clearly states that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:15, Rev. 3:14
He emptied Himself and became man.
John 17 : 5 ” And now Oh Father glorify Me with the glory together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
I know you have said that the last Scripture is in the minds of God (I think you said that, not 100% sure, tho)then I guess He is back into the mind of God. Well we know that that is not true.
Then there is the Scriptures that says that God send His Son into the world. Question were did He send Him from?
There are a few other Scriptures that apply that He was with the Father before the world was.
In Christian Love Irene

[Not3in1]

To be honest, all of the scriptures you quoted have inference attached to them.
There are ZERO scriptures that teach “Jesus” preexisted as a spirit-only-begotten-of-God in the bible anywhere!

Why?

Because “Jesus” did not exist until he was slapped on the bottom and took his first literal breath.  He was then given the name Jesus.  Son of God and Son of Man.  Before this event, “Jesus” was no where mentioned.  Only inference puts him into the scriptures before his birth.

My opinion, of course.  
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Nice way to tell, Mandy.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,17:27)

To be honest, all of the scriptures you quoted have inference attached to them. There are ZERO scriptures that teach “Jesus” preexisted as a spirit-only-begotten-of-God in the bible anywhere! Why? Because “Jesus” did not exist until he was slapped on the bottom and took his first literal breath.  He was then given the name Jesus.  Son of God and Son of Man.  Before this event, “Jesus” was no where mentioned.  Only inference puts him into the scriptures before his birth. My opinion, of course.   Mandy

Putting aside Jesus words, “before Abraham, I am” and “Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”, lets entertain your notion that Jesus Christ is a created being approximately 2000 years old.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

So pre-2000 years ago, there was no being in heaven that the fullness of deity dwelt in. If there was, who?

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So per-2000 years ago, there was no image of the invisible God. Does that mean that belief in God was by faith and not sight?

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So pre-2000 years ago, no one has seen the Father, and then a baby is born, his butt smacked, and he sees this invisible Father?

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So pre-2000 years ago, nothing existed and then when he was born, all things came into existence and consistence.

Acts 3:15
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

So the author of life was created 2000 years ago?

Hmmmm

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

The above says a lot, but can you deny that it is not saying glory to God through Jesus before all ages?

John 12:40-42
40″ HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE (B)HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

Can you deny that Isaiah who lived pre-2000 years ago, didn't see his glory and speak of him?

Can you see why some here do not hold to your belief on this?

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
John 12:40-42
40″ HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE (B)HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

If you read the verses in Isaiah 6 quoted here and compare them with Rev 4, I think you will see it is God and not Jesus spoken of in these verses. I do not believe Jesus had his own heavenly throne and angels.

[gollamudi]

Wonderful, both preexistence believers clash with each other.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,17:27)

To be honest, all of the scriptures you quoted have inference attached to them. There are ZERO scriptures that teach “Jesus” preexisted as a spirit-only-begotten-of-God in the bible anywhere! Why? Because “Jesus” did not exist until he was slapped on the bottom and took his first literal breath. He was then given the name Jesus. Son of God and Son of Man. Before this event, “Jesus” was no where mentioned. Only inference puts him into the scriptures before his birth. My opinion, of course. Mandy

Mandy……….good post, good way of putting it.

I see it that way also.

Peace to you and yours………..gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,22:05)

Hmmmm

Hi t8,
Believe it or not, I actually do have a rebutal to your post. But I will have to compose it later tonight. You raised some good points and I'll give you my two cents later.

Thanks,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,22:05)

Putting aside Jesus words, “before Abraham, I am” and “Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”, lets entertain your notion that Jesus Christ is a created being approximately 2000 years old. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, So pre-2000 years ago, there was no being in heaven that the fullness of deity dwelt in. If there was, who? Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. So per-2000 years ago, there was no image of the invisible God. Does that mean that belief in God was by faith and not sight? John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. So pre-2000 years ago, no one has seen the Father, and then a baby is born, his butt smacked, and he sees this invisible Father? Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. So pre-2000 years ago, nothing existed and then when he was born, all things came into existence and consistence. Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. So the author of life was created 2000 years ago? Hmmmm Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The above says a lot, but can you deny that it is not saying glory to God through Jesus before all ages? John 12:40-42 40″ HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE (B)HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; Can you deny that Isaiah who lived pre-2000 years ago, didn't see his glory and speak of him? Can you see why some here do not hold to your belief on this?

Hi T8,
I am not expert in dealing this subject but I can share some points with you.
1. You say :”For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”   I want to ask when this thing happened my brother before Jesus' birth or after? In fact he got a body after his birth, how can you assume in that way…No preexistence here.

2.You ask:”So pre-2000 years ago, there was no being in heaven that the fullness of deity dwelt in. If there was, who?”
The answer is yes there was no being in heaven except it happened in Jesus at 2000 as you quote. But the invisible God was manifesting in His Theophanies such as angels for which there are many examples in O.T
3.You say:” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation”  yes Jesus is the true image of invisible God and he is firstborn of all creation in the sense as the preeminent in rank not in order of creation.
4. You ask: “So per-2000 years ago, there was no image of the invisible God. Does that mean that belief in God was by faith and not sight?”   Yes there was no permanent image of God in pre-2000 era, only temporary Theophanies as and when the invisible God wished to reveal Himself to mankind. It doesn't make knowing God only through faith but also by seing His temporary images.
5.You also say:”No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father”   Yes Jesus has seen means not physically but by knowing Him(God), how can he see Him with human eyes? See 1 Jn 4:12 even after Jesus said that he had seen God, John says “no one has ever seen God”.
6. You comment:”So pre-2000 years ago, no one has seen the Father, and then a baby is born, his butt smacked, and he sees this invisible Father?” Yes you have to believe Jesus' own words that he has seen God in what form you have ask him on the Last day. But I believe Jesus saw God by knowing Him as per 1 Jn 4:12 but not literally.
7. You say:”And he is before all things, and by him all things consist” yes he is before all things as firstborn in Rank not in the order of creation.
8. You ask:”So pre-2000 years ago, nothing existed and then when he was born, all things came into existence and consistence?  He was born at 2000 as per your count not before that as some being, but he was in his Father as 'word of God' through which God created this whole universe. I hope you believe that only God is the creator.
9. You quote:”You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this”
What do you mean by this whether Jews killed a human being like you and me or some Spirit or God living in a flesh body?
10. You ask:”So the author of life was created 2000 years ago?” Yes the author of life came into existence at about 2000 years ago to this earth by birth as Human but was given authority by God his Father to give eternal life to all those who believe in his name.
So on and soforth.. I hope others like Gene and Mandy may answer your other questions.
Please think over
Adam

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