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Quote (gollamudi @ June 19 2008,10:10) Hi LU,
See my post above the last one, I have not told that one of the three men is the “angel of God” but I have told that God appreared to Abraham in the form of three men who are also angels. You can not separate one of three men and call him as son of God or Jesus. If you read Gen 18 carefully you can see that all the three of them were representing Yahwe. When two angels left for Sodom one is still speaking to Abraham that doesn't mean he is not an angel. There is no distinction visible among the three men who appeared to Abraham. God was manifesting himself through His Elohim(powers or angels) because no one can see Him.You are the one making lot of assumptions for proving your preexistence, for us it is not at all required because we believe in only One God and there is no one else besides Him who is called God and can never be even now when Jesus is sitting in glory with his Father the God of him and God of all.
There is no wavering of faith here in this belief.
Take care
Adam
Golla,
Abraham referred to only one of them as Yahweh. The other two were not called that, that shows a distinction between them.By the way, the Most High God does have form that can be beheld by man and was by Moses. Therefore, He has a visible body, which we cannot see because He doesn't show it to us for very good reasons. We will see Him someday though. He has given us the Son of God to make appearances and represent Him and to reach us in a more personal way. IMO
LU
LUQuote (Lightenup @ June 20 2008,01:27) God has given me a fuller truth of the Son of God than you apparently have been given. That is why you can't see these things.
Your theories are counted among them.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 20 2008,06:09) Hi Mandy,
LU is the one given with fuller Truth than anybody in this forum?
Brother,You may noticed that I was giving her the “winking” smiley face. Meaning, I did not fully agree that she was the only one with a deeper insight to the scriptures. However she is free to believe this, of course, most of us do believe this about ourselves. We just don't usually have the moxie to say it outloud.
To say that God foreordained Jesus from the founding of the world..like you and Gene suggest…is to say God pre planned what we see today..Good and Bad…that would make him a sharer in the badness..But we can not “Try God with evil” according to the bible..
So simply put…I can not agree .because GOD is Love and evil does not ORIGINATE with him…
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:43) To say that God foreordained Jesus from the founding of the world..like you and Gene suggest…is to say God pre planned what we see today..Good and Bad…that would make him a sharer in the badness..But we can not “Try God with evil” according to the bible.. So simply put…I can not agree .because GOD is Love and evil does not ORIGINATE with him…
Good one dk.I totally agree.
It seems that some are preaching that God planned the whole thing including evil. Otherwise how would Jesus exist if he is only the second Adam a position that became available after the first one stuffed up.
Certainly flies in the face of “all things were made through him and for him” doesn't it.
I mean if Adam hadn't have fallen, then Jesus wouldn't have a job according to those who say that he is only a man, the second Adam.
But scripture is clear, he is the first born of all creation. Not just among men.
The only conclusion that some must have is that God intended for the Devil to fall and take down Adam and man too. Otherwise how was God going to introduce Jesus who was this original plan so to speak?
On the surface (ignoring scripture that states such) it fits without controversy that God sent the one whom he created all things through in order to potentially redeem back to him all that he created.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:43) To say that God foreordained Jesus from the founding of the world..like you and Gene suggest…is to say God pre planned what we see today..Good and Bad…that would make him a sharer in the badness..But we can not “Try God with evil” according to the bible.. So simply put…I can not agree .because GOD is Love and evil does not ORIGINATE with him…
It is amazing how a belief can disguise evil against God.The Trinity for example denies the prototype son, by saying that he is the Original God. They deny it in doctrine but pay lip service to Jesus being the son, so that the appearance of condemnation isn't evident.
And those who say Jesus is a man who took over the job of Adam who stuffed up, are really saying that God planned for all this evil to happen in order for a position to open up so that Jesus could exist.
It is amazing that all beliefs come with connotations that many would be in horror if they realized what those connotations were.
Only the truth sets us free. It also sets us free from believing in false accusations against God and is the only safety.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 19 2008,02:07) Hi T8,
Your example is not fitting at all to explain the glory of Jesus, the question here is sitting with the Father in glory never happened to Jesus earlier. No where it is mentioned in O.T out of all prophecies about the coming Messiah. No prophet has seen in a vision that Jesus was sitting in glory with God prior to his actual glorification at his resurrection. I see the glory mentioned in Jn 17:5 as foreordained glory for Jesus on his completion of his Father's will it can not be thought as the already attained glory. See the verses;
Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,For men, Jesus was a mystery who is now revealed. But the demons recognised him.
The new covenant is a greater revelation. So judging the new by the old is good to check things out, but the new goes further than the old because it is greater.
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2008,21:18) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:43) To say that God foreordained Jesus from the founding of the world..like you and Gene suggest…is to say God pre planned what we see today..Good and Bad…that would make him a sharer in the badness..But we can not “Try God with evil” according to the bible.. So simply put…I can not agree .because GOD is Love and evil does not ORIGINATE with him…
Good one.I totally agree.
It seems that some are preaching that God planned the whole thing including evil. Otherwise how would Jesus exist if he is only the second Adam a position that became available after the first one stuffed up.
Certainly flies in the face of “all things were made through him and for him” doesn't it.
I mean if Adam hadn't have fallen, then Jesus wouldn't have a job according to those who say that he is only a man, the second Adam.
But scripture is clear, he is the first born of all creation. Not just among men.
The only conclusion that some must have is that God intended for the Devil to fall and take down Adam and man too. Otherwise how was God going to introduce Jesus who was this original plan so to speak?
On the surface (ignoring scripture that states such) it fits without controversy that God sent the one whom he created all things through in order to potentially redeem back to him all that he created.
Hi T8,
You want to limit God's wisdom?
Can He not foresee every thing in His plan before it comes into existence?
If you can not understand verses like 1 Pet 1:20, Eph 1:4-5 then who else can teach you?
Do you think Adam had to be some super being to pass on sin to all mankind?
Do you think Jesus has to be super spirit being or begotten God to offer sacrifice for remission of sins all man-kind?
What is that you are going to tell us?
Please take care
AdamHi GM,
The anointed lamb was preordained by the plan of God to be slain for us.
Does that say anything about his origins?His origins are from God since the “word of God ” became flesh in Jesus. This had taken place according to the “plan of God” when the fullness of times have come. There is a link my friend.
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2008,05:18) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:43) To say that God foreordained Jesus from the founding of the world..like you and Gene suggest…is to say God pre planned what we see today..Good and Bad…that would make him a sharer in the badness..But we can not “Try God with evil” according to the bible.. So simply put…I can not agree .because GOD is Love and evil does not ORIGINATE with him…
Good one dk.I totally agree.
It seems that some are preaching that God planned the whole thing including evil. Otherwise how would Jesus exist if he is only the second Adam a position that became available after the first one stuffed up.
Certainly flies in the face of “all things were made through him and for him” doesn't it.
I mean if Adam hadn't have fallen, then Jesus wouldn't have a job according to those who say that he is only a man, the second Adam.
But scripture is clear, he is the first born of all creation. Not just among men.
The only conclusion that some must have is that God intended for the Devil to fall and take down Adam and man too. Otherwise how was God going to introduce Jesus who was this original plan so to speak?
On the surface (ignoring scripture that states such) it fits without controversy that God sent the one whom he created all things through in order to potentially redeem back to him all that he created.
Good post t8,
I have thought that God may have had 2 options for mankind to choose from because He put two trees in the garden of Eden. Eating from either one would have established a future course for man.If man chose to obey God (plan A) and not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, then He could have eaten from the Tree of Life. In plan A, the Father would never have been seperated from mankind because of sin and His only begotten Son would have never been seperated from His created brothers nor would He have to redeem them. Mankind would never have to endure a corruptible body that was destined to die and decay and the earth wouldn't have a curse on it either. It would be like what it will be in the future paradise.
We know what happened when plan B took place and the other tree was eaten off of first. That disobedience brought seperation from the Father and required the Son to function as a Messiah and come as a man for a blood sacrificial payment.
Both plans end up at the same place-paradise with the Father and the Son. God's ultimate purposes will not be thwarted.
Why didn't the Father just have one plan? I think that it is because He wanted us to know that we desired Him too and not just Him desiring us. The Son of God is part of each plan. The role of the Son as the Messiah was predestined as if plan B was chosen.
God created everything good and no evil, yet He gave the choice for evil and He gave the choice to remain good. Mankind made the wrong choice but praise God for providing His only begotten Son to become a man to be a blood sacrifice and redeem us. Also, I think that the Father gave His Son a choice to come or not to come. He chose to come and die and pay our penalty because He loves His Father and always desires Him to be pleased. I believe that God could not beget anything less than perfect or He would not be God. That is why man is created and not begotten. Man is not by nature perfect. His son, by nature is perfect. God begat God.
If the Son of God did not come we would all perish. Hallelujah, He came!! Our brother, the Only Begotten God, died for us.
Have a great day t8,
LULu or T-8, Irene,or WJ
In what form did Jesus pre-exsist? Also, does John 6:46 indicate pre-exsistance of the son of God? It reads: John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
Also, where is this only begotten God stuff coming from. The scriptures say John 1:18 ” No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten SON, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten SON, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Nowhere does it say “only begotten God”
Quote (gsilva72 @ June 21 2008,03:15) Lu or T-8, Irene,or WJ In what form did Jesus pre-exsist? Also, does John 6:46 indicate pre-exsistance of the son of God? It reads: John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
Also, where is this only begotten God stuff coming from. The scriptures say John 1:18 ” No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten SON, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten SON, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Nowhere does it say “only begotten God”
the bible only mentions 2 forms…”heavenly sort” and “earthly sort”…Jesus was heavenlyto all…..to see Jesus as a preexistent being, totally goes against the plan and purpose of Jesus being a Human Son of God, It separates Jesus total likeness of Us, and causes not only a separation of Jesus but a separation of God's work in us also. Jesus is an example of exactly what GOD can do in us also, because He was exactly like us in (EVERY) Way. No Just in some ways, but (EVERY) way. He is the first MAN to really (IMAGE) God the Father. The firstborn of all of family of God. The first of many to be born into that Family as (imaging) God the Father.
IMO…………..gene
Quote (gsilva72 @ June 20 2008,11:15) Lu or T-8, Irene,or WJ In what form did Jesus pre-exsist? Also, does John 6:46 indicate pre-exsistance of the son of God? It reads: John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
Also, where is this only begotten God stuff coming from. The scriptures say John 1:18 ” No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten SON, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten SON, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Nowhere does it say “only begotten God”
Hi Gsilva,
Yes, John 6:46 does indicate that the Son of God pre-existed.
John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”I believe that the Son of God pre-existed as a heavenly being in a spirit type of body that could appear and disappear in a variety of forms. He looked like a man to Abraham, maybe like an angel, maybe even a rock, yet He was the Son of God in all those forms. I believe that He had an inner spirit within His spirit body which could indwell others and is referred to as the “Spirit of Christ”, “Spirit of Jesus”, and “Spirit of the Son.” I believe He has one inner spirit with different functions;
as “Christ” which probably emphasizes His Messianic role
as “Jesus” which likely emphasizes His emmaculate conception into a fleshly body and appearance as a man and function as a bond servant and sacrifice for our sins
as “Son” with its likely emphasis on being the only begotten of God His Father.The only begotten God:
1:18 NAS
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.The Greek:
qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato.monogenhv qeov is translated “only begotten God”.
Some translators say “one and only” God or Son and that is inaccurate since monogenhv is from two greek words:
monos- only, or one and only
ginomai-to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being.
The word for “son” isn't even in the greek.Check it out here:
http://www.studylight.org/isb….=1&l=enThere you go…good question! This is my understanding anyway.
LUQuote (gsilva72 @ June 21 2008,03:15) Lu or T-8, Irene,or WJ In what form did Jesus pre-exsist? Also, does John 6:46 indicate pre-exsistance of the son of God? It reads: John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
Also, where is this only begotten God stuff coming from. The scriptures say John 1:18 ” No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten SON, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten SON, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Nowhere does it say “only begotten God”
Hi GS,
There is manuscript variation on Jn1.18.If you look any verse up on Bible Gateway [accessible through bible lookup from HEAVEN NET:FORUM – top RHS of this page] on this site then you can compare bible versions.
NASB is useful because it offers parallel verses.
NIV is the one that shows manuscript variation.On this verse it says.
Jn1.18
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.Footnotes:
a John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
b John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) SonSo NASB, using other manuscripts says
18(A)No one has seen God at any time; (B)the only begotten God who is Âin the bosom of the Father, (D)He has explained Him.
Hope this helps
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