Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,13:14)

My simple question to you is why not Jesus asked for the glory if at all he was having prior to his birth as man why he should ask for glory only of before the foundations of the world?

Even you can see that he is asking for the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos began.

So why did he say that, instead of saying that before he came to earth.

Well obviously he is pointing to the fact that this glory was there before the foundations of the cosmos. He is saying that this glory is ancient. If he said before he came to earth, then would mean that he had this glory then, but would leave it open as to whether that glory was there before that.

If I say to you that you owe me money from last year, then why would I say that you should pay me back that money that you owed me yesterday? Even though it is true in this example that you owed me money yesterday.

Normally you refer to the time when you first owed the money. I can't say it any better than this. It is just common sense to refer to something when it started when identifying, even though it is also true that it may have been yesterday too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,13:28)

Look a subject like this would have never been left to chance, it would have been stated so clear it could not be mistaken. So why is it not stated clearly then, why do you and all preexistences have to force text to make it appear that way? There is no explicit text that confirms his preexistence and every text given can easily be taken to mean a preplanned existence. If he did preexist who was he and why no activity of Him shown, what was he name.

Gene.

Scripture doesn't go into great detail about a lot of things that have taken place.

There is sparse information about dinosaurs, other planets, the angelic rebellion, and even the origins of the son. Sometimes I wonder how important any of this is to us where we are now, but I am confident that in time we will know all these things.

Regarding the son, there are a number of scriptures that refer to him that give us clues as to his origins. More clues than the other points I have mentioned above.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,02:28)

Hi LU, Try KJV and you will see the different placement of the colon [:]totally changes the meaning. It simply shows he is repeating himself in a different way for clarity. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Hi Nick,

John 16:28
“I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”
echlqon para tou patrov kai elhluqa (5754) eiv ton kosmon; palin afihmi (5719) ton kosmon kai poreuomai (5736) prov ton patera.

http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk

If you look at the Greek you see “palin afihmi ton kosmon” which, word for word in the order it is written in the Greek that says “again leaving the world”.  So the word “again” wouldn't be put with the last phrase.  It might say “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world again; I am leaving the world and going to the Father” or “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”  Besides that, His audience became convinced that by this statement, He was making it clear where He came from.  That was His emphasis and not where He was going. We read what they understood in this verse:

29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ June 18 2008,03:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2008,17:50) To all: In this passage that Jesus is saying “I am leaving the world again…” John 16:28-33 28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.” So, that must mean that the Son of God had left the world at some point before He spoke these words which by the way were spoken before He died on the cross.  Think on that now.  I am thinking that shows that He was alive and in the world before He was born.  I believe that He walked and talked to Abraham for at least one time on earth by the name “Yahweh”. LU Thanks LU. Good verse. What about in the name of YHWH. John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, Surely the Father of Yeshua is YHWH.

Thanks t8,
Have a great day!
LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ June 18 2008,19:46)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,13:14) My simple question to you is why not Jesus asked for the glory if at all he was having prior to his birth as man why he should ask for glory only of before the foundations of the world? Even you can see that he is asking for the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos began. So why did he say that, instead of saying that before he came to earth. Well obviously he is pointing to the fact that this glory was there before the foundations of the cosmos. He is saying that this glory is ancient. If he said before he came to earth, then would mean that he had this glory then, but would leave it open as to whether that glory was there before that. If I say to you that you owe me money from last year, then why would I say that you should pay me back that money that you owed me yesterday? Even though it is true in this example that you owed me money yesterday. Normally you refer to the time when you first owed the money. I can't say it any better than this. It is just common sense to refer to something when it started when identifying, even though it is also true that it may have been yesterday too.

Hi T8,
Your example is not fitting at all to explain the glory of Jesus, the question here is sitting with the Father in glory never happened to Jesus earlier. No where it is mentioned in O.T out of all prophecies about the coming Messiah. No prophet has seen in a vision that Jesus was sitting in glory with God prior to his actual glorification at his resurrection.  I see the glory mentioned in Jn 17:5 as foreordained glory for Jesus on his completion of his Father's will it can not be thought as the already attained glory. See the verses;

Jn 17:1 & 4

1 “When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you”.
4 “I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do”

Eph 1:20-23

20″which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
21far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
23which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way”.

Phil 2:8-9

8″he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.  
9Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name  that is above every name”

Heb 5:4-10

4 “No one takes this honor upon himself but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, it was not Christ who glorified himself in becoming high priest, but rather the one who said to him: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”;
6 just as he says in another place: 4 “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
7 In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered;
9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
10 declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek”

If at all Jesus was having glory prior to his birth and was already sitting in heavenly places with God there is no necessity to achieve this glory again by doing some thing. It will be mere mockery. See all the verses quoted above no where it is mentioned as Jesus was existing in glory but it is clear that he suffered for achieving to that level. If you ignore somany verses in the Bible then I can not help.
Please take care
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollamudi…….Amen Amen, Brother.

T8…….what you described as what you think I am doing is exactly what you are doing brother, You said there is sparse information about dinosaurs. but in fact there is Hard information about them we have complete skeletal remains of them. We don't have to assume they existed we Know they did.

Just look at all the scriptures you gave, you just as easily could use them to prove Jesus Preordained destination in the plan of God. Like Peter said which i noticed none of those us who believe in preexistence theology uses, ask your self why don't they, surely Peter would have known wouldn't He?, Peter said Jesus was Foreordained before the foundations of the world, (BUT) was (manifested) in our time.

Not even to mention what example would He have been to mankind, what would have been proved by His preexistence as some super being. NO, GOD made another ADAM a Second ADAM not a second reincarnated being, and Perfected Him to be the (First) Born from man kind to (IMAGE) God, which is Gods intent for all Mankind, He was the First of (MANY) to make it into the family of God. All this preexistent theology stemmed from the Trinitarian Theology, and is in my opinion a False teaching, and does Harm to the word and work of God.

Think about it T8, your smart enough to put this together.

Love to you and yours……….gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2008,05:12)

He was the First of (MANY) to make it into the family of God.

In my opinion, even more than “making it” into the family of God – Jesus was born into the family of God.

He is the firstborn (of the new creation AND from the dead, in this order).

IMO,
Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

Mandy……Amen Amen, sis. Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation from the dead of the family of God, and He holds the office of the Firstborn also.

Peace to you and yours…….gene

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2008,06:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2008,05:12) He was the First of (MANY) to make it into the family of God. In my opinion, even more than “making it” into the family of God – Jesus was born into the family of God.   He is the firstborn (of the new creation AND from the dead, in this order). IMO, Mandy

If He was the firstborn of the New creation how did He then create all like it says in Col, 1:15, think about that? What glory did He have with the Father before the world was.? And if He did have a glory in the Fathers mind, did He then go back there, cause that is what is says. And what does preeminence mean? So many question that I would have if I would want to believe what you do. If you look at all the post that t8 gives, I believe it explains it right. Why is that I understand it and you and others don't.
Verse 17 of Col. says this
AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS.

HMMMMMMMMMMMM what did that say?
That also goes along with Rev. 3:14
This things says the Amen, the Faithful Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
Hmmmmmmmm again what did that say?
And then you have Proverbs 8:22-30, which I love. Especially in the James Moffatt translation.

Jesus was born into the Family of God? Mandy He is the Head of the Church, like it says the woman is the head of the man, the man is the head of Jesus and the Father God is the Head of Jesus. He is the very Beginning of the Family of God. You have to remember that the Jewish People did not except Him if that is what you think was the Family of God, or what do you think the Family of God was at that time? But that really has nothing to do with what Jesus was before the world was.
Well I can see it already I don't think in spite of t8 and my effort to make you see, I really doubt that you will.
In that case lets agree to disagree. IOM
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Hello Golla,

In this passage that Jesus is saying “I am leaving the world again…”
John 16:28-33
28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

So, that must mean that the Son of God had left the world at some point before He spoke these words which by the way were spoken before He died on the cross. Think on that now. I am thinking that shows that He was alive and in the world before He was born. I believe that He walked and talked to Abraham for at least one time on earth by the name “Yahweh”.

LU

[NickHassan]

hmmm

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
One swallow does not make a summer.
Can you verify your idea with supporting verses?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,22:57)

Hi LU, One swallow does not make a summer. Can you verify your idea with supporting verses?

Hi Nick,
I believe that the Son of God came in His Father's name to Abraham and you can see this in Genesis 18.

Genesis 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day….

Genesis 18:22
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

John 8:56+
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,14:43)

Hello Golla, In this passage that Jesus is saying “I am leaving the world again…” John 16:28-33 28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.” So, that must mean that the Son of God had left the world at some point before He spoke these words which by the way were spoken before He died on the cross.  Think on that now.  I am thinking that shows that He was alive and in the world before He was born.  I believe that He walked and talked to Abraham for at least one time on earth by the name “Yahweh”. LU

Hi LU,
Can you please quote the verse where in the Bible it is mentioned that Jesus walked, talked and met Abraham at least one time on earth as YHWH before he actually born on this earth?

[gollamudi]

Hi LU,
The incident quoted by you in Gen 18 is talking about God appeared to Abraham in three angels looking like men, no where you can asssume that it was Jesus as Yahwe before he actually born on earth. Is that what YOU BELIEVE as preexistence?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,16:58)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,22:57) Hi LU, One swallow does not make a summer. Can you verify your idea with supporting verses? Hi Nick, I believe that the Son of God came in His Father's name to Abraham and you can see this in Genesis 18. Genesis 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day…. Genesis 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. John 8:56+ “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” LU

Hi LU,
Does the scripture identify any of the beings as Jesus.
Should we make assumptions?

The angel of the Lord often appeared on earth doing work in the name of the Lord God.

[Lightenup]

Nick and Golla,
You both speak of assumptions here but you both have also made assumptions here. In Gen 18 there are three called “three men” and then one of the three men is called Yahweh. You both have assumed that the one called Yahweh is only the “angel of the LORD” but no where in this passage is that said. Only the two “men” that continue on to visit Lot are called angels. Do you see that you have made assumptions here and then you speak of me making them? I do not deny that it is not spelled out clearly that the Son of God was that one that came in the name of Yahweh, and I do assume that it wasn't the Most High God, Yahweh since no man has clearly seen Yahweh except Jesus. It must be someone else and that is something that we seem to agree on. Who is that someone else is probably something the Lord has to enlighten you with.

I believe that God has shown me that He had a son way back before time. And then I questioned whether or not that son was God and I believe that his Son showed me that He wasn't equal to the Father but that He was our God as the only begotten God. I know that it is something you can't accept but I think that maybe He hasn't given you that faith to believe that yet. That is why there is so much spinning of the wheels here. Knowing the Son as your God is definetly something that you have to be given faith to believe. When one has that faith, then seeing the truth of God more fully is possible. The path that God took me on when I surrendered my past beliefs in the trinity and opened my heart to whatever He wanted to show me was first to know that Jesus was a son and a son during the time on earth and also even from creation. After that He showed me how I could trust the Son of God to be my God. Also, I learned that the Son of God was not God in the fullest sense of the term but that belonged only to His Father.

So, I have no problem with the Son of God representing His Father before Abraham as Yahweh. He indeed is called the only begotten God (whether you want to believe it or not) and who better to represent His Father before Abraham as Yahweh. Jesus tells us that Abraham actually saw Him and that He existed even before Abraham was born.

God has given me a fuller truth of the Son of God than you apparently have been given. That is why you can't see these things. When we insist on clear passages to spell everything out for us we miss the deeper things of God in His word that He wants us to get through faith in Him. Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe. You can't accept that the Son of God was a mere man and yet much more, for He is the Son of God, the only begotten God.

IMO,
LU

[GeneBalthrop]

lu…..What do you make of this John 17:6…> i have manifested Your name to the men You have given me out of the world (THEY WERE YOURS).

question……when were they Gods?, another scripture says “for whom He foreknew He also predestined” .

Would you then say we all preexisted before we were born? This is what your saying about Jesus though, even though there is no preexisting activity shown in any OT scriptures of Him.

Peace………gene

[gollamudi]

Hi LU,
See my post above the last one, I have not told that one of the three men is the “angel of God” but I have told that God appreared to Abraham in the form of three men who are also angels. You can not separate one of three men and call him as son of God or Jesus. If you read Gen 18 carefully you can see that all the three of them were representing Yahwe. When two angels left for Sodom one is still speaking to Abraham that doesn't mean he is not an angel. There is no distinction visible among the three men who appeared to Abraham. God was manifesting himself through His Elohim(powers or angels) because no one can see Him.

You are the one making lot of assumptions for proving your preexistence, for us it is not at all required because we believe in only One God and there is no one else besides Him who is called God and can never be even now when Jesus is sitting in glory with his Father the God of him and God of all.
There is no wavering of faith here in this belief.
Take care
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2008,09:33)

lu…..What do you make of this John 17:6…> i have manifested Your name to the men You have given me out of the world (THEY WERE YOURS). question……when were they Gods?, another scripture says “for whom He foreknew He also predestined” . Would you then say we all preexisted before we were born? This is what your saying about Jesus though, even though there is no preexisting activity shown in any OT scriptures of Him. Peace………gene

Hi Gene,
I believe that the men in John 17:6 are the disciples primarily. However, by the time Jesus' prayer gets to v. 20, He includes anyone who believes in Him through their word.
God gave Jesus his disciples when He asked them to follow Him.

I believe that we were foreknown in a general way and that we were all predestined in a general way. I don't think that alone means that we pre-existed though.

There is a reason that OT scriptures don't spell out the activity of Jesus before He was born. The Son of God didn't act in the function of “Jesus” before He was born, He had other functions but always as the Son of God, the begotten God. He functioned as other functions before Jesus. The function that the Son of God was to take on, as Jesus, was foreordained and predestined. IMO
LU

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