Preexistence

[Irene]

Gollamudi, Mandy and Gen Please explain to me how Jesus can create all amd be only in the mind of the Father. He created all by Him and for Him. Just like we have the Fathers Spirit in us, so did Jesus and was able to create all. Only by the power of Almighty Father was He abl;e to do so. Also in Proverbs ( you need to use the James Moffatt Translation of the Bible)
Proverbs 8:22-30
Verse 22 ” The Eternal formed me first of His creation, first of all His works in days of old.”
Verse 23 ” I was fashioned in the earliest ages from the very first when earth began.”
Verse 24 ” I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water.”
Verse 25 ” Ere He sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills exsisted I was born.
Verse 26 ” When earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the world.
Verse 27 ” When He set the heaven up, I was there, when He drew the Vault o'rethe abyss.
Verse 28 ” When He made the couds frm overhead , when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
Verse 29 ” When He set the boundaries of the sea, when He laid foundations for the earth.”
Verse 30 ” I WAS WITH HIM THEN HIS FOSTERCHILD, I WAS HIS DELIGHT DAY AFTER DAY, PLAYING IN
HIS PRESENCE CONSTANTLY.”

In the Beginning was the Word.
I wish all would understand that our Father wanted to share His life with someone and created His Son the only one from the Father. He was there it says. He was the first creation it says in Colasians and Revelation. It all fits. Even in John 1:1 when so many of you seem to have a problem with that the Word was God. He took simple on His Fathers NAME. Men named Jehovah God. It is simple a title. The Son was the Spokesword of the Father. Nobdy has seen or heard the voice of the Father only He that came from the Father.
Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Irene,
I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he  always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching.
Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman.
So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism?
Please decide yourself
Peace to you
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:14)

Hi Irene, I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he  always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching. Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman. So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism? Please decide yourself Peace to you Adam

You either believe what the Word of God tells you or you don't. I have taken the Word like it is writen and not by any interpatation of it. Jesus created all by the power of the Father. The Father gave Him that right. Why should'nt He, He is His firstborn of all creation Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14
Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Irene,
I think we should not go back to the same old discussion again because it is boring to do that.
Sorry to bother you
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,05:22)

Hi Irene, I think we should not go back to the same old discussion again because it is boring to do that. Sorry to bother you Adam

Wow the truth is boring? Sorry not to me. But you don't have have to answer me.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:14)

Hi Irene, I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he  always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching. Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman. So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism? Please decide yourself Peace to you Adam

Hi GM,
What is a GOD?
Is a god a being for worship?
Or is a god a being of great authority and power?
Or is a god any being found in scripture that God calls a god? Heb1
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The fear of polytheism is unhelpful to true knowledge.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,06:46)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:14) Hi Irene, I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he  always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching. Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman. So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism? Please decide yourself Peace to you Adam Hi GM, What is a GOD? Is a god a being for worship? Or is a god a being of great authority and power? Or is a god any being found in scripture that God calls a god?  Heb1 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. The fear of polytheism is unhelpful to true knowledge.

Hi NH
 

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,06:46)

The fear of polytheism is unhelpful to true knowledge.

What is this supposed to mean? That you believe in Polytheism?

[JPR]

The “scriptures can not be broken”…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JPR @ June 18 2008,08:47)

The “scriptures can not be broken”…

JPR

Oh yes I forgot about the wicked and ungodly kings and judges.

They are called gods, who are not gods at all but so-called gods.

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:14)

Hi Irene, I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching. Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman. So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism? Please decide yourself Peace to you Adam

Gollamudi………Good post right on brother.

peace to you ………….gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,06:46)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:14) Hi Irene, I can understand your agony behind conveying things as you understand. There is no one to be blamed for such understandings. The question here is whether Jesus was the creator God, if so how many Gods created this universe? Mere interpretation of certain scriptures for favouring certain doctrine can not make Jesus as creator God which he(Jesus) never claimed during his ministry on this earth but he  always glorified God the creator in many places and he prayed to Him(God) many times. If at all Jesus was connected with that creation is through the “word of God” through which God created this universe. But another question is was the “word of God” a person prior to Jesus birth if so whether that makes more than one God in the beginning? But Jn 1:1-2 says “the word was God” it doesn't say “a god” or “another God” Therefore we can not separate the “word of God ” from God Himself otherwise we make polytheism which is against Jesus' teaching. Many people in this forum claimed Prov 8:22-30 applies to Jesus' preexistence but it was already denied by many in this forum saying it is only the personification of wisodom as woman. So what is left for us whether to believe Jesus' words which were nothing but God's own words or to believe human interpretation of making Polytheism or Henotheism? Please decide yourself Peace to you Adam Hi GM, What is a GOD? Is a god a being for worship? Or is a god a being of great authority and power? Or is a god any being found in scripture that God calls a god?  Heb1 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.   The fear of polytheism is unhelpful to true knowledge.

Hi Nick,
so you believe polytheism by quoting the verse in Hebrew?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2008,17:32)

Hi brother T8, You are ignoring that the glory which Jesus was mentioning in Jn 17:5 was the future glory which God promised him before the foundations world not that he was already exalted to that posion of sitting with God the Father. See the difference, how can he struggle for the glory which was already existing? You may say he emptied himself, that can not be accepted as a logic here my firend. If at all he was with the glory prior to his birth as man, he could have asked God “Father return my glory which I was having prior to my birth as man” why should he ask for the glory which was before the foundations of the world? There is a logic again, because he foreordained in the plan of God before the foundations of the world, that's why Jesus was asking for the glory which was promised to him. I don't find any difficulty in understanding God's plan in Jesus life when should he take birth and suffer, die and to be ressurected with the glory which He(God) foreknew before the foundations of the world. It all happens for us also as His (God's) children as per Eph 1:4-5. If you understand differently then you make so much assumption about Jesus' pre-existence which is not all necessary for the salvation of mankind. Peace to you Adam

That's funny because I didn't see the words “promised glory” and we know that there are many promises in scripture.

It says “the glory I had with you before the world”.
It is quite clear.

The onus is on you to prove that the translation is dodgy.
As it stands, it says “the glory I had with you before the world began”.

Also, this is not the only scripture that speaks of such either.

Jesus said “before Abraham, I am”.

There are others too.

[gollamudi]

Hi T8,
Please read my post carefully I have already replied all your queries then I leave it to you what you believe. God's word has to be understood in tottallity not in fragments. My simple question to you is why not Jesus asked for the glory if at all he was having prior to his birth as man why he should ask for glory only of before the foundations of the world? There is logic my brother in asking for that because he was not with that glory literally he is being glorified by his Father after fulfilling His(God's) will on cross not that he was already having that glory in the past. If you don't see the simple truth then I can leave it to you.
Peace to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

T8….It does not say the Glory was a glory Jesus was partaking before he actually received it. It a speculation on your part.

And again When Jesus said before Abraham i am, that does not also say He existed as a preexisting being and if that was what Jesus intended, don't you think Jesus would would have simply said he was alive or existed, but he didn't say that why, could it be He really was not meaning He was alive but only He was in Gods plan and purpose.

Look a subject like this would have never been left to chance, it would have been stated so clear it could not be mistaken. So why is it not stated clearly then, why do you and all preexistences have to force text to make it appear that way? There is no explicit text that confirms his preexistence and every text given can easily be taken to mean a preplanned existence. If he did preexist who was he and why no activity of Him shown, what was he name.

Peace to you……….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
You are right.
Jesus never said he was a preexistant being.
But he is the monogenes Son of God who was sent into the world[1Jn4]

[Lightenup]

To all:

In this passage that Jesus is saying “I am leaving the world again…”
John 16:28-33
28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

So, that must mean that the Son of God had left the world at some point before He spoke these words which by the way were spoken before He died on the cross. Think on that now. I am thinking that shows that He was alive and in the world before He was born. I believe that He walked and talked to Abraham for at least one time on earth by the name “Yahweh”.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Try KJV and you will see the different placement of the colon [:]totally changes the meaning.
It simply shows he is repeating himself in a different way for clarity.

28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2008,17:50)

To all: In this passage that Jesus is saying “I am leaving the world again…” John 16:28-33 28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. 30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.” So, that must mean that the Son of God had left the world at some point before He spoke these words which by the way were spoken before He died on the cross.  Think on that now.  I am thinking that shows that He was alive and in the world before He was born.  I believe that He walked and talked to Abraham for at least one time on earth by the name “Yahweh”. LU

Thanks LU. Good verse.

What about in the name of YHWH.

John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

Surely the Father of Yeshua is YHWH.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,16:47)

Hi GB, You are right. Jesus never said he was a preexistant being. But he is the monogenes Son of God who was sent into the world[1Jn4]

He also didn't say that he wasn't a pre-existent being.

But we can both see that he did say, “before Abraham, I am”.

How important is it to believe these words of Jesus I wonder?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,13:28)

T8….It does not say the Glory was a glory Jesus was partaking before he actually received it. It a speculation on your part.

No speculation, just reading the text as it is written.

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

“The glory I had with you before the world began”.

That is a glory that he had with the Father, before the world began.

That is glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Couple that with the fact that God created all things through him, and his origins are made clearer. If God made all things through him, then that means all things were before him, except God.

And as a third witness, Jesus said “before Abraham, I am”.

I really cannot understand why people have to go against this. It's not just an obscure scripture, it is more of a theme in scripture.

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