Preexistence

Participant

Gollmaudi……….Your right, they just can't get. Another example is where it says Levi Paid tithes also< For while he was yet born and in Abraham loins when Abraham Gave a Tithe to Melcasadick , Levi was considered to have tithe.

Jesus when in the furtre Plan of God was already glorified to be what He was to be, But it could not happen until it happened and that was a the resurrection. We also are foreordained to receive that same Glory at our resurrection a preordained glory. In this understanding you can see the absolute SOVEREIGNTY of the one and (ONLY TRUE GOD). You see thats what is being tore down God's sovereignty by these false assumptions, of preexistences and trinitarians. I Jesus preexisted as some super God or Person He would have Plainly said it and it would not be in obscure or drought full language it would have been made very clear with words that couldn't be taken another way. For instance where they us the words,” before Abraham I was”, If Jesus was meaning He was alive, He simply would have, I was alive.
So if Jesus used a obscure language we need to ask ourselves why did he do that , the only answer is He was not inferring a preexistence berth at all but a preordained plan of God, It's just that simple , but can they see it “NO”>they can't, why? because it's Just not been given them to see it. And thats the same with the other scriptures they use also. It still amazes me how easily you can see that and how they can see it. And i believe 942767, and Choseone, might also see it judging from what they have written,Yes there are a few but only a few that God has lead through the maze of confusion that exists in this so called form of “Christianity”, But God has chosen you to understand these things be thank full and always pray in the Spirit and God will continue to Guide your mind in the true way.

Adam peace and love to you and yours…………gene

June 14, 2008 at 4:30 pm#92755

http://www.studylight.org/isb….7&nt=na

Participant

Hi Golla and Gene,

In Phillipians 2:7 we see that the Son of God
first:
emptied Himself (past tense, active voice)
next:
took the form of a bond-servant (past tense-active voice)
and finally:
was made in the likeness of men.(past tense-middle voice)

Phillipians 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

alla eauton ekenwsen (5656) morfhn doulou labwn, (5631) en omoiwmati anqrwpwn genomenov; (5637)

Isn't it interesting that He actually emptied Himself before His flesh body was made for Him.

A plan cannot empty itself, nope.
What would a plan empty itself of anyway?

Now a Begotten God could empty Himself and take on the form of a bond-servant by His own doing (that is what the active voice tells us, the subject did the action). Glory be to the Begotten God and His Father!

You can see that these verbs are all in the aorist tense which is a Greek past tense and that some are in the active voice and one is in the middle voice.

You can check it out here:
http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk

Blessings,
LU

June 14, 2008 at 5:05 pm#92759

Participant

Lightenup………the point is why would a “so called” begotten God do that, God said He gives (HIS GLORY) to (NO) MAN. And also says God is (NOT) a Man that He should LIE or a SON OF MAN the Hie should (REPENT)

Jesus was a (MAN) right.

peace….gene

June 14, 2008 at 5:16 pm#92760

gollamudi

Participant

Hi kathi,
Then why are you stopping with two (Gods) only go ahead and add another leftout “The Holy Spirit” who is also called God in many places in N.T. I have already told you that if you start interpreting the scriptures like that you will end up inventing more than one God like two, three and many. You people don't understand the existence of God Himself how can you get to know His revelations and manifestations. If you see in O.T there are many places where the angel of the LORD was talking like God Himself for example to Moses in the bush, but in N.T we have been told by Stephen that was only an angel (Act 7). Jesus is the manifestation of that One and only God it doesn't make Jesus another God my Sis. Please think even the Holy Spirit as WJ was argueing with you is another manifestation of that One God that's why many places the Holy Spirit(another comforter) was also mentioned as if God is talking to us. God is always same and He is never changing (1 Tim 6:15-17). His invisible characteristics and His immortality never can change. That's why “no one ever has seen Him” as in 1 Jn 4:12 even after Jesus came to the earth as a human and manifested that One God to us. You can not equate anybody with that one God because He will not give His glory(as God) to anybody even to His Son. Phil 2:6 was debated n-number of times here I don't see any differece in that to accept any pre-existence. If you want you can see the explanations given by Gene.
Hope you people will understand this.
Adam

June 14, 2008 at 5:19 pm#92761

Participant

Lightenup…..Jesus emptied himself of these things he had while on earth not when he so called preexisted , Paul was talking in the past tense about Jesus earthly ministry, when Paul said that, it was a past tense situation, Because Jesus was then in Heaven when Paul said that. Can't you see that?.

blessings………..gene

June 14, 2008 at 5:30 pm#92762

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 15 2008,05:19)

blessings………..gene

Gen You are so blind. You just have to wait until Jesus in the Millenium will tell you. Amen
Peace and Love Mrs.

June 14, 2008 at 5:56 pm#92764

Participant

seek and you will find……….If God has blinded me then I am will be content even with that, because i full well know It God who opens up the Eyes of understanding and reveals His truth to whom soever He chooses to. And what He has shown me is not what most on this site believe, I full well know that, so somebodies wrong and if it's me i will change if what i see is different then what it says, but will YOU and others, that should be the question as far as I am concerned anyway. I don't have to add words or change tense or change meannings of the actual written text to make it come out to my way of thinking, but you and others have to force the text to make it come out to your thinking, that i know as fact, proved many times over here. But you are right we will (ALL) know the truth when Jesus Comes won't we.

I don't mean disrespect…..gene

June 14, 2008 at 6:21 pm#92766

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2008,13:05)

Jesus was a (MAN) right.

peace….gene

Hi Gene,
Thanks for your response. He emptied Himself BEFORE He took on the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of man not AFTER as you say. Can't you see that?

Quote

the point is why would a “so called” begotten God do that,

What does “that” in your statement mean, Gene?

Quote

God said He gives (HIS GLORY) to (NO) MAN.

I agree, I don't think that God gives His glory to man or even His begotten son, the begotten God, ever. He is the only one that has the glory of being “God” in the fullest sense of the word and no one else for He and His attributes and powers always existed. The glory that the Begotten God, His only Son has is not equal to the glory that belongs only to His always existent Father, the Most High and ONLY Most High God.

Later,
LU

June 14, 2008 at 6:29 pm#92767

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2008,13:16)

Hi Golla,
Can you show me where the Holy Spirit is called “God”. I know that it is referred to as “of God” and I understand that God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit. I know that God comforts us through His Holy Spirit and thus the Holy Spirit within us is our Comforter. But I do not know where it says that the Holy Spirit is called “God”. Please show me if you get the time.

Press on,
LU

June 14, 2008 at 7:26 pm#92771

Participant

lightenup…..the word (Before) is not in the text, you added it to if your reasonings. Thats called forcing texts. He could just as easily emptied his self of that Godly nature of being a son of God and and equating himself as the True God, which would have been stealing or robbing God of His Glory but he simply took the nature of a servant, when he was alive on earth as son man as well as son of God. He took the lower position. “For you say I am you Lord and master and indeed i am, if I then being your Lord and master serve you, you aught to serve one another also”. Jesus was indeed the Son of God, but He did not think tpo rob God, buy making himself equal to Him, which He is not God the Father equal any way but the opportunity existed obliviously by all the miracles God was doing through Him. He could easily stoled glory from the Father, but He did not do that, instead he gave all Glory to the Father for everything and obeyed Him in everything he did.

It's simple to understand …………..gene

June 14, 2008 at 8:26 pm#92778

Participant

Hi GB,
You miss the orderly sequencing of truth inPhil2 and Heb 1.
To do so is forcing the text.

June 14, 2008 at 8:43 pm#92780

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2008,15:26)

It's simple to understand …………..gene

Gene,

2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
In the Greek, notice the order of the Greek words:
alla eauton ekenwsen (5656) morfhn doulou labwn, (5631) en omoiwmati anqrwpwn genomenov; (5637) kai sxhmati eureqeiv (5685) wv anqrwpov

alla eauton ekenwsen is where we get “but emptied Himself”. Technically it says “but Himself emptied” it says the same thing. Notice that it is before the rest of the verse.

I know that the word “before” is not in the text. My point was that the Greek has the clause “He emptied Himself” before the phrase “taking the form of a bond-servant” and then that phrase is written before “and being made in the likeness of men.” You do not get to put the phrases in any order that you want Gene to fit your views. Please see that in the Greek.

What do you think that He emptied Himself of Gene. We know that He did not empty Himself of His nature as God's only begotten son because He tells many that the son of God is what He is over and over. He claims that He is the Messiah even. During His life on earth, he makes many unusual claims like existing before Abraham existed or that He was the resurrection and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Wow, those are huge claims that He gave. No, He did not give up the fact that He was God's only son. He was not trying to keep that a secret. Having the nature of God's only begotten Son does not make Him equal to His Father. He knew that equality with His Father was not within his grasp or ever will be. He knew that His Father always existed and was God in the fullest sense of the word and He was not. That was one of His greatest strengths. IMO Satan thought that equality was within his grasps, though, and that was his greatest weakness. The Son of God did empty Himself of any privileges that comes with that position as God's only begotten Son.

Think about this: Let's say that the King of England has an only son, the prince. Well, being the prince, there are alot of priveleges. He was simply born to a certain person and bingo, he received privileges that the common man would never receive. Then imagine that prince giving up his life in the castle and all of his expenses paid eccetra to live the life of a commoner and going to a foreign land where they did not lay out the red carpet for him or even have much understanding of the kingdom of his heritage. There was no way to give up the fact that the king of England was his father or that he was a prince by birth. He wasn't denying those facts, but he did empty himself of the privileges of that position. He took a job just like everyone else, walked everywhere he went, and well, he gave up alot of the privileged life that he had in the castle. Then one day, his friends were made aware of his royalty, which he never denied, but he never expected them to give him privileges. He had given them up and eventually even willingly died for the benefit of his friends. What an amazing prince that would be, eh? This is only an analogy, you don't need to pick it apart. I am just trying to help you see the idea of giving up rightful privileges for the benefit of others.

Thanks for reading,
LU

June 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm#92788

Participant

LU……Your breaking up the sentence it's all one sentence concerning the same thing happening at the same time, when Jesus was emptying Himself, he was at the same time becoming a servant. No where does it say Jesus emptied Him self of a preexistent condition, you assuming it means that but thats is not what it says , He had that condition while he was alive after his berth, Jesus know He was the prophesied One who was to come.

And while in that very condition He emptied Himself of that God nature that was in Him and took on the nature of a bond servant. When Jesus was on earth He was both son of man and son of God.

While he was on earth not off some where in heaven. Paul plainly tell us to do the same, why because we also have the spirit or nature of God in us also. Read Paul's whole point, He is saying we to should do what Jesus did, no where does Paul say Jesus preexisted that way before coming to earth, you forcing the text to make it come out that way . Can't you see your making it say things it does not specifically say that should be obvious to you.

June 14, 2008 at 10:51 pm#92789

Participant

Hi GB,
A condition?
Life with God is not a condition.
He partook of our fleshly estate, a body was prepared for him.

June 14, 2008 at 11:06 pm#92793

Participant

Nick………I don't want to get involved with you on some foolish word definitions game, If you can't see a condition (can be a state of being) then you thats your problem not ours.

June 14, 2008 at 11:20 pm#92795

Participant

Hi GB,
When was the GOD NATURE in him?
How did that nature get there?

Being God's human son made him just a man.

June 15, 2008 at 12:38 am#92799

Participant

to all……The Day Jesus was Begotten of God he was the son of God , “this day I have begotten you”. Not some other distant past, Unless you don't believe what God said as some seem not to be able believe to. IT can't be any plainer then the nose on your face.

peace to all who see and hear………………gene

June 15, 2008 at 3:22 am#92804

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,06:29)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2008,13:16)

Press on,
LU

Hi LU,
Here are the verses that the Holy Spirit is called God:
1. Acts 5:3-4
2. 1 Cor 6:19-20
3. Heb 3:7 (the original verse was spoken by God in O.T)

Like this there are many verses indirectly referring the Holy Spirit to God, infact the personification of the Holy Spirit is as active as you are claiming the 'word' in Jn 1:1-5. One more thing that the Holy Spirit is in subordination to Jesus, then how can you make it (him) as Father's personal Spirit or Jesus' Spirit?
See the verses :
Jn 15:26 (Jesus sending the Holy Spirit)
Jn 16:13-15(Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus and follows his words)

Remember these things if you want to make Jesus as begotten God instead of begotten son you are making more than One God which bible disagrees every where. if you want to make Jesus as God through whom God was manifested, then you have to make the Holy Spirit also another God as same God is manifesting Himself through the Holy Spirit.

Therefore I believe there is only One God the Father who manifests Himself through Angels (in O.T),His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit which(who) is living in us. I have quoted earlier that not a single manifestation like angels, Jesus or the Holy Spirit make more than One God.
if you believe this I don't think there will be any confusion in understanding Monotheism of the Bible.
Peace to you
Adam

June 15, 2008 at 3:40 am#92809