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Hi WJ,
So you agree the Spirit of God is God's own spirit.
Then why do you teach the Spirit is another person from the Father?Just because of inferences?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,08:52) Hi WJ,
So you agree the Spirit of God is God's own spirit.
Then why do you teach the Spirit is another person from the Father?Just because of inferences?
NHThe Spirit of God is God, just like the Father and the Son.
It is written, yet you will ignore certain scriptures because of what you say is inferrence.
Scriptures should interpret our theology and not visa versa.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 11 2008,03:58) Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,17:38) “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. Regarding this verse:
The personal spirit of God is directed by the mind of God, it acts as the spirit of God, not the mind of God. It is not a person in and of itself nor does it have its own will. It responds to the will of God. The mind of God is where the things of God originate and then God, with His thoughts, directs His spirit within Him to act accordingly, and the spirit within Him responds to His will.The spirit within God certainly would not act on its own initiative. It does what the mind of God directs it to do. It doesn't have a choice, it depends on the mind to initiate what it does. The Spirit of God does not have its own mind or will, it responds to God's mind and will. Also, the spirit of God is without measure, it never runs out. It remains in God but also flows into others.
Our spirit does not act on its own as if we had a spirit that acted independently of our will. Apparently God does not have a spirit that acts independently of His will either. The Holy Spirit gives us that which it has been shown or told by the thoughts of God's mind.
This is my understanding.
Gratefully His,
LU
Hi LU.
I think I understand your position correctly, you affirm that the Holy Spirit is a non personal, spiritual extension of the Father, true? If so I believe there are some verse that challenge the theory that the Holy Spirit does not have His own mind or will:“and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:27)
“THE mind OF the Spirit” It couldn't be more explicit. The text also bears out that the Spirit “intercedes” (to intercede in behalf of: – make intercession for. [Strongs]) on the saints' behalf, which denotes intelligence, right? But notwithstanding that Who does He intercede to? Wouldn't it be the Father? Seems to me He would be, a lot of scripture points to that. So in holding that that The Holy Spirit is a non-personal extension of the Father Himself is also to acknowledge that The Father (Who is Himself “Spirit”) uses an extension of Him to make intercession TO HIMSELF. Which is the very essence of confusion.
“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:11)
The Spirit right here in this verse is said to have a will. It's plain.
Here is, what I think is, an excellent exegetical study of the Bible's Holy Spirit data. It was written by Glenn Miller. Have a read and tell me what you think.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin04a.html
Blessings
Is
Hello Is 1:18 and WJ,Quote “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:11) If you read the context of the passage from 1 Cor 12:1+ you will see that the “He” from “He wills” in v. 11 refers to God. This passage establishes in the context that the spirit spoken of is the spirit of God. It is God who wills, not the spirit who wills.
Quote “and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:27) If we understand that the mind of God directs the spirit, then we can read this verse with that understanding. The mind of the Spirit (thoughts/purposes in the mind of God) is God's own mind so of course God knows what the mind of the Spirit is and the Spirit is doing what He is directing it to do within the saints. God sends His spirit to interceed (plead) with us to draw us close to Him. In other words, that which is directing the Spirit is the mind of God. The Spirit does not have a seperate mind from the mind of God the Father.
Peace,
LUI use the pronoun “it” for the Holy Spirit because “spirit” is a neuter noun and not a masculine noun. The pronoun for a neuter noun is “it” and not “he”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 12 2008,08:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,08:52) Hi WJ,
So you agree the Spirit of God is God's own spirit.
Then why do you teach the Spirit is another person from the Father?Just because of inferences?
NHThe Spirit of God is God, just like the Father and the Son.
It is written, yet you will ignore certain scriptures because of what you say is inferrence.
Scriptures should interpret our theology and not visa versa.
Hi WJ,
The Son of God
is not our God.Scripture is clear that the Father is our God and his.
Hi LU
Quote (Lightenup @ June 12 2008,09:07) I use the pronoun “it” for the Holy Spirit because “spirit” is a neuter noun and not a masculine noun. The pronoun for a neuter noun is “it” and not “he”. Will touch on the rest later, but thought for now I would say that your interpretation of the Holy Spirit and the pronouns is a total violation to all of the major translations.
How do you propose to know more about Greek than the 100s of translators?
So lets see what your translation looks like…
“But when it, the Spirit of truth, comes, it will guide you into all the truth; for it will not speak on its own initiative, but whatever it hears, it will speak; and it will disclose to you what is to come.”
Sounds like the twilight zone. Here is why the translators disagree with your interpretation.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
”Come”… erchomai, which means…
1) to come
a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the publicThis word is used AV — come 616, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1
It is used almost invariably in association with a person in the NT.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Guide”… hodēgeō, which means… 1) to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance toThis word is used AV — lead 3, guide 2
100 percent used in association with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Speak”… laleo, which means…
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speakAV — speak 244, say 15, tell 12, talk 11, preach 6, utter 4, misc 3, vr speak 1
Almost invariably it involves a person with a tongue.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Hear”… akouō, which means…
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understandAV — hear 418, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8
Again, almost invariably associated with a person who has ears.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Shew” anaggello,
1) to announce, make known
2) to report, bring back tidings, rehearseAV — tell 6, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1
100% associated with a person who has a tongue.
While we are at it lets look at the 14th verse.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Glorify” doxazo,
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledgedAV — glorify 54, honour 3, have glory 2, magnify 1, make glorious 1, full of glory 1
100% associated with a person.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Receive” lambano,1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
e) to take, to choose, select
f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get backAV — receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17
Almost invariably associated with a person.
This is only two verses spoken by Jesus and not to mention the Apostles describing the Holy Spirit with personal attributes using personal pronouns.
Should we ignore them?
Finally Jesus said…
But the Comforter, (parakletos) which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26
Jesus uses this greek word “parakletos” 4 times in the Gospel of John in referring to the Holy Spirit.
“parakletos” is “Masculine noun” that means;
1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
1) of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
In fact John even uses the word in describing Yeshua here…
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1
I think the translators have it right.
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2008,10:30) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2008,10:12) To all …….who believe in preexistence , tell me who is this talking about here. Psa 139:13…> “for you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mothers womb.14.> I will praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made: Marvelous are Your works, and that, my soul knows very well.15..> My frame was not hidden from You, When i was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth,16..> Your saw my substance, being yet unformed. and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.
question in what book was it not the bible and was it not the prophesies about Jesus that is being referred to here. And if that be the case then no where is there does he mention a prior existence and don't you think it would have been mentioned it, if he preexisted. If its a prophesy about Jesus, which i believe it is.
peace….gene
GBThat is simply a Psalm of David.
David says…
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV Ps 139:13This is not prophetic of Yeshua even though you would like for it to be. IMO. WJ
AMEN!!DK……what do you do with …”in your (BOOK) they were all written , the days (fashioned) when as (YET) there were NONE of them.
Please show me where any of that fits King David. If you really study what it says you will conclude it's refereeing to Jesus Himself. Remember where is says ” in the volume of the books it is written of me, I come “O” GOD to do (YOUR) WILL. These books mentioned here are the Book of GOD the Bible. And Jesus was written in them before He was Born as you well Know, where King David was Not written in any prophesies at all.IMO……….>gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 12 2008,13:37) DK……what do you do with …”in your (BOOK) they were all written , the days (fashioned) when as (YET) there were NONE of them.
Please show me where any of that fits King David. If you really study what it says you will conclude it's refereeing to Jesus Himself. Remember where is says ” in the volume of the books it is written of me, I come “O” GOD to do (YOUR) WILL. These books mentioned here are the Book of GOD the Bible. And Jesus was written in them before He was Born as you well Know, where King David was Not written in any prophesies at all.IMO……….>gene
David was GOD's annointed king and he took pride in doing his will…he was also “favorable in his eyes”Remember…there are many “books” and “scrolls” according to the bible…GOD designed humans and David was simply lauding GOD for his wonderful creation
Remember these other books and scrolls mentioned in the bible…and their contents..are in GOD's jurisdiction not ours…it is pointless to speculate what may be in them until GOD tells us
DK……no where was David's existence prophesied to come in any book and the only book being mentioned here is God's book, the bible.The days (fashioned) when as yet there was none, that means before He was born it was all laid out what He was to do. It's a prophecy about Jesus. And that's plain and we don”t have to speculate on others books and scrolls there were none concerning King David. It's plain it's talking about Jesus who was prophesied to come in the bible and that was what the Psalm was talking about, No other.
IMO………….gene
Hi WJ,
I am thankful that the Holy Spirit is capable of many things. The spirit of man is capable of different personified things as well. Note these verses below:Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?Ps 77:3
I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.Ps 77:6
I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.Ps 142:3
When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.Lu 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.So what can the spirit of man do?
It can rejoice in God
It can pray
It can be overwhelmed
It can make a diligent search
It can be troubledThe spirit of man can do things that a man can also do; pray, search, etc. but it is not another man which is inside us or with us but it is a “thing” a very unique and special thing, not a person. The spirit of man is a neuter noun also just like the spirit of God is a neuter noun and the pronouns for a neuter noun would be it, its, and itself.
Let's try these verses again but add he/it. Which one fits better? First say the verse with “he” as the pronoun and then say the verse with “it” as the pronoun. Do you notice a difference? I do.
Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled (why should he/it not be troubled?)Ps 77:3
I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit, he/it was overwhelmed. Selah.Ps 77:6
I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit, he/it made diligent search.Ps 142:3
When my spirit (When he/it) was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit, he/it prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.Lu 1:47
And my spirit, he/it hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.I would think that “it” would be a better choice as the pronoun for man's spirit because the word “he” makes it sound like the spirit is another person in or with us.
So, I think that “it” instead of “he” should be the pronoun for the Holy Spirit. Using “he” when the spirit is a neuter noun really changes the meaning as we can see in the above and no wonder for all the confusion thinking that the Holy Spirit is another person. Masculine nouns get “he/his/himself”, feminine nouns get “she/her/herself” and neuter nouns get it/its/itself as their pronouns.
God bless,
LUI honestly cannot see how preexisting in the form of God, then emptying yourself to become lower than the angels as a man, gave Jesus an advantage. He chose to become a man like us. Yes he was without sin and that was the difference between him and us, but he paid the price that the first Adam clocked up.
In every other way he was like us and was tempted like us, but probably in a more extreme way too. I believe that he could have chosen to sin, just as Adam chose.
Jesus lived as a perfect man and is able to redeem all men.
He is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created.
A being with divine nature who emptied himself and took on human nature still equals a human being. i.e., a being with a human body.
He is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. He is at the right hand of the majesty on high.
Hello T8,
Was there any proof that Jesus was having glory before his resurrection? Why was it not visible in heaven earlier? See the present glory which Jesus is having promised by his Father before the foundations of the world but was not given untill he fulfilled his Father's will on the cross of calvary. “He is sitting on the right hand of Father” is present my friend not past before his birth. There is lot of assumption in your understanding for which there is no proof in O.T.
take care
AdamHI LU
In respnse to your post, I have moved the discussion to the Holy Spirit thread.
T8………gollamudi is right there is a LOT of assumptions in what you said, and is not scripturally backed up, where does it say he (WAS) before he was born in divine nature your making it come out that way to fit your theology of preexistence, But if you examine it closely it says “who (EXISTING) in the Nature of God , question when was he (EXISTING) in the Nature of GOD, before He was born?, or after He was Born,?,
It was after He was born because He was given the divine nature at berth and He did not
try to rob GOD, by taking away His Glory as if He were a GOD. T8 its simple to understand God the Father made another Adam the all And perfected Him through out His life on earth. Just like He will do with us when we receive the fullness of the Spirit of God at the resurrection of the justified, When we will see Him Just as He is, so will we be. Thats are hope.peace ……….gene
Hi GB,
If you would undestand scripture you should study the order in which it is written.
Looking at Heb 1 and Phil 2 shows what God is revealing. Scrambling the order to justify disbelief is not the way we should follow.Nick…….It's you who are scrambling the order Show me where it says He preexisted in the nature of GOD. The scripture read (Who (existing) in the nature of God) not preexisted, It doesn't say that right but you and trinitarians are trying to make it say that when if fact it doesn't say that. If it does please show me it.
Peace ……….gene
Nick………When Jesus was here on earth He existed in the Nature of GOD, that simply means He has the fullness of the Spirit of God in Him and despite that He did not consider to make himself equal to God by robbing God of Gods Glory, that what trinitarians do they take God's glory and give it all to Jesus, But interestingly Jesus never did that< He gave God the Father all the Glory. Saying if I glorify myself my glory is nothing. And again I have glorified (YOU) God the Father on the earth.
With all your bible quoting you should by now know these things………..gene
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