Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Read 1 Cor 15 and you will see we are clothed in a new heavenly body similar to the man from heaven.
We follow him in every way because it is the plan of God to do so.
You can see him in heaven in Dan 7

[Lightenup]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 10 2008,02:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,16:56) Hi WJ, We do not add speculations to scripture. No trinity is written NH Forget the Trinity. Call it what you want. But there is still three spoken of in scripture and yet there is “One Spirit”. You're so right WJ, our spirit is different to God's, but Yeshua's apparently isn't. You hit the nail on the head brother.

Hello Is 1:18,
I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit. The Father's spirit does not cry out “Abba Father”, but the Son's does. The Spirit of the Father joins the spirit within the Son and then the Son gives that spirit that has become one within Him to all believers which then becomes one with our spirit within us.

Blessings, LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
The Spirit ever proceeds from God.
God is the source of the eternal life in the Son and in us.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 10 2008,02:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,16:56) Hi WJ, We do not add speculations to scripture. No trinity is written NH Forget the Trinity. Call it what you want. But there is still three spoken of in scripture and yet there is “One Spirit”. You're so right WJ, our spirit is different to God's, but Yeshua's apparently isn't. You hit the nail on the head brother. Hello Is 1:18, I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit.  The Father's spirit does not cry out “Abba Father”, but the Son's does.  The Spirit of the Father joins the spirit within the Son and then the Son gives that spirit that has become one within Him to all believers which then becomes one with our spirit within us. Blessings, LU

Hi LU

Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38)

I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit.

If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then explain this…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Go uses unusual words to describe the work of His Spirit.
He is in heaven of course while His Spirit operates throughout creation.
So if He did not speak in this way people would think He had left heaven and was only as His Spirit.

[GeneBalthrop]

To all …….who believe in preexistence , tell me who is this talking about here.

Psa 139:13…> “for you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mothers womb.14.> I will praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made: Marvelous are Your works, and that, my soul knows very well.15..> My frame was not hidden from You, When i was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth,16..> Your saw my substance, being yet unformed. and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.

question in what book was it not the bible and was it not the prophesies about Jesus that is being referred to here. And if that be the case then no where is there does he mention a prior existence and don't you think it would have been mentioned it, if he preexisted. If its a prophesy about Jesus, which i believe it is.

peace….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2008,10:12)

To all …….who believe in preexistence , tell me who is this talking about here. Psa 139:13…> “for you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mothers womb.14.> I will praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made: Marvelous are Your works, and that, my soul knows very well.15..> My frame was not hidden from You, When i was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth,16..> Your saw my substance, being yet unformed. and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. question in what book was it not the bible and was it not the prophesies about Jesus that is being referred to here. And if that be the case then no where is there does he mention a prior existence and don't you think it would have been mentioned it, if he preexisted. If its a prophesy about Jesus, which i believe it is. peace….gene

GB

That is simply a Psalm of David.

David says…

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV Ps 139:13

This is not prophetic of Yeshua even though you would like for it to be. IMO. WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ….then why did it say in your book they were all written. what book was he talking about.

I believe it is a prophetic saying regarding Jesus as many Psalm”s are.

peace…………gene

[gollamudi]

Here is another verse to support that quoted by Gene, Ps 22:7-10 it goes like this
7
But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9
“You relied on the LORD–let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you.”
10
Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast.
11
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help
        Yes God is the one that formed Jesus, you and me in the womb of our mothers in a miraculous way that no human science can explain fully.
I agree with you on interpretation of Ps 139
Adam

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2008,10:12)

To all …….who believe in preexistence , tell me who is this talking about here. Psa 139:13…> “for you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mothers womb.14.> I will praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made: Marvelous are Your works, and that, my soul knows very well.15..> My frame was not hidden from You, When i was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth,16..> Your saw my substance, being yet unformed. and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. question in what book was it not the bible and was it not the prophesies about Jesus that is being referred to here. And if that be the case then no where is there does he mention a prior existence and don't you think it would have been mentioned it, if he preexisted. If its a prophesy about Jesus, which i believe it is. peace….gene

Hi GB,
“You covered me..”

So he WAS before his body was formed?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 10 2008,02:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,16:56) Hi WJ, We do not add speculations to scripture. No trinity is written NH Forget the Trinity. Call it what you want. But there is still three spoken of in scripture and yet there is “One Spirit”. You're so right WJ, our spirit is different to God's, but Yeshua's apparently isn't. You hit the nail on the head brother. Hello Is 1:18, I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit.  The Father's spirit does not cry out “Abba Father”, but the Son's does.  The Spirit of the Father joins the spirit within the Son and then the Son gives that spirit that has become one within Him to all believers which then becomes one with our spirit within us. Blessings, LU Hi LU Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38) I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then explain this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me:  for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Did Jesus send the Father? Did Jesus baptize men in the Holy Spirit (Father) and fire? There is three. Yet one Spirit. There is no distinction between the Spirit of God and Yeshua's Spirit made by Paul. Yet there is a distinction with ours and Gods… [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (two spirits, Gods and ours) that we are the children of God: Rom 8:14-16 The Spirit of Jesus or God (same Spirit not 2) is now joined with our Spirit through the new birth. One Spirit now fills all believers. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Cor 12:13 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:18 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:4 Yeshua shares the same substance and essence as the Father and Holy Spirit. Heb 1:3 They are One Spirit, three persons and One God.

Hello WJ,

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Regarding this verse:
The personal spirit of God is directed by the mind of God, it acts as the spirit of God, not the mind of God. It is not a person in and of itself nor does it have its own will. It responds to the will of God. The mind of God is where the things of God originate and then God, with His thoughts, directs His spirit within Him to act accordingly, and the spirit within Him responds to His will.

The spirit within God certainly would not act on its own initiative. It does what the mind of God directs it to do. It doesn't have a choice, it depends on the mind to initiate what it does. The Spirit of God does not have its own mind or will, it responds to God's mind and will. Also, the spirit of God is without measure, it never runs out. It remains in God but also flows into others.

Our spirit does not act on its own as if we had a spirit that acted independently of our will. Apparently God does not have a spirit that acts independently of His will either. The Holy Spirit gives us that which it has been shown or told by the thoughts of God's mind.

This is my understanding.

Gratefully His,
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,16:32)

Hi LU, The Spirit ever proceeds from God. God is the source of the eternal life in the Son and in us.

Hi Nick,
Yes, I agree with that!

LU

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,17:38)

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. Regarding this verse: The personal spirit of God is directed by the mind of God, it  acts as the spirit of God, not the mind of God. It is not a person in and of itself nor does it have its own will.  It responds to the will of God.  The mind of God is where the things of God originate and then God, with His thoughts, directs His spirit within Him to act accordingly, and the spirit within Him responds to His will. The spirit within God certainly would not act on its own initiative.  It does what the mind of God directs it to do.  It doesn't have a choice, it depends on the mind to initiate what it does.  The Spirit of God does not have its own mind or will, it responds to God's mind and will.  Also, the spirit of God is without measure, it never runs out.  It remains in God but also flows into others. Our spirit does not act on its own as if we had a spirit that acted independently of our will.  Apparently God does not have a spirit that acts independently of His will either.  The Holy Spirit gives us that which it has been shown or told by the thoughts of God's mind. This is my understanding. Gratefully His, LU

Hi LU.
I think I understand your position correctly, you affirm that the Holy Spirit is a non personal, spiritual extension of the Father, true? If so I believe there are some verse that challenge the theory that the Holy Spirit does not have His own mind or will:

“and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:27)

“THE mind OF the Spirit” It couldn't be more explicit. The text also bears out that the Spirit “intercedes” (to intercede in behalf of: – make intercession for. [Strongs]) on the saints' behalf, which denotes intelligence, right? But notwithstanding that Who does He intercede to? Wouldn't it be the Father? Seems to me He would be, a lot of scripture points to that. So in holding that that The Holy Spirit is a non-personal extension of the Father Himself is also to acknowledge that The Father (Who is Himself “Spirit”) uses an extension of Him to make intercession TO HIMSELF. Which is the very essence of confusion.

“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:11)

The Spirit right here in this verse is said to have a will. It's plain.

Here is, what I think is, an excellent exegetical study of the Bible's Holy Spirit data. It was written by Glenn Miller. Have a read and tell me what you think.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin04a.html

Blessings
Is

[gollamudi]

Hi Isaiah,
That is a wonderful article on the Holy Spirit that you have given in a link. I do accept that the Holy Spirit is not just a force or some amorphous. But I don't believe in any Trinity because we can not make God into many persons but I believe that the invisible God manifests Himself through angels, His son, and now in Holy Spirit. Yes your points are strong when you quoted that the Holy Spirit can not be the personal Spirit of God because it is subordination to Jesus the son of God who is also in subordination to His Father the only God.
Some times I wonder why John was mentioning this in Jn 7:39 see for your self 'What is the meaning of his saying in Jn 7:36-39?
36
'You will look for me and not find (me), and where I am you cannot come'?”
37
On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink.
38
Whoever believes in me, as scripture says:
'Rivers of living water 14 will flow from within him.'”
39
He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

See the last line “There was of course no Spirit yet, because Jesus has not been glorified” I wonder why there is link between the Spirit giving and Jesus' glorification?

Also another verse: Jn 16:5-7
5
But now I am going to the one who sent me, and not one of you asks me, 3 'Where are you going?'
6
But because I told you this, grief has filled your hearts.
7
But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Underline the word “if I do not go” the advocate(comforter) will not come to you.

I often ask my self what is the relationship of Jesus with the giving of Holy Spirit. I think the understanding of the Holy Spirit is lying in these verses I quoted above.
Hope God will give us understanding of His Holy Spirit properly.
Blessings
Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,17:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:04) Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 10 2008,02:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2008,18:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,16:56) Hi WJ, We do not add speculations to scripture. No trinity is written NH Forget the Trinity. Call it what you want. But there is still three spoken of in scripture and yet there is “One Spirit”. You're so right WJ, our spirit is different to God's, but Yeshua's apparently isn't. You hit the nail on the head brother. Hello Is 1:18, I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit.  The Father's spirit does not cry out “Abba Father”, but the Son's does.  The Spirit of the Father joins the spirit within the Son and then the Son gives that spirit that has become one within Him to all believers which then becomes one with our spirit within us. Blessings, LU Hi LU Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2008,07:38) I do not think that the Father's spirit (referred to as the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible) is the same as the Son's spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then explain this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me:  for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Did Jesus send the Father? Did Jesus baptize men in the Holy Spirit (Father) and fire? There is three. Yet one Spirit. There is no distinction between the Spirit of God and Yeshua's Spirit made by Paul. Yet there is a distinction with ours and Gods… [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (two spirits, Gods and ours) that we are the children of God: Rom 8:14-16 The Spirit of Jesus or God (same Spirit not 2) is now joined with our Spirit through the new birth. One Spirit now fills all believers. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Cor 12:13 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:18 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:4 Yeshua shares the same substance and essence as the Father and Holy Spirit. Heb 1:3 They are One Spirit, three persons and One God. Hello WJ, “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. Regarding this verse: The personal spirit of God is directed by the mind of God, it  acts as the spirit of God, not the mind of God. It is not a person in and of itself nor does it have its own will.  It responds to the will of God.  The mind of God is where the things of God originate and then God, with His thoughts, directs His spirit within Him to act accordingly, and the spirit within Him responds to His will. The spirit within God certainly would not act on its own initiative.  It does what the mind of God directs it to do.  It doesn't have a choice, it depends on the mind to initiate what it does.  The Spirit of God does not have its own mind or will, it responds to God's mind and will.  Also, the spirit of God is without measure, it never runs out.  It remains in God but also flows into others. Our spirit does not act on its own as if we had a spirit that acted independently of our will.  Apparently God does not have a spirit that acts independently of His will either.  The Holy Spirit gives us that which it has been shown or told by the thoughts of God's mind. This is my understanding. Gratefully His, LU

Hi LU

I agree with Is 1:18 totally, but I would like to make a couple of comments in regards to your post.

You quote…

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

Which I assume is the NASB.

Notice the “pronouns” he and his. 7 times the pronouns are used in just this one verse.

In your explanation of the verse, not once did you refer to the Spirit with one of these pronouns. In fact you solely referred to Gods Spirit as a
n *it*.

I find this troubling.

Your theology lines up nicely with the JWs who are modern day Arians.

They believe that Yeshua is “a God”, you believe Yeshua is “a begotten God”.

They believe that the Holy Spirit is a non-personal force or power, and as far as I can tell you do also.

What I have noticed in all nontrinitarians who have abandoned their roots is the first thing that goes is their belief in Yeshua being the “True God” spoken of in John 1:1 and 1 John 5:20 and that Yeshua is One with the Father in every way, thereby diminishing the nature of Yeshua spoken of in Heb 1:3 and Col 1:15 showing Christ is exactly as the Father.

The second thing is they begin to diminish the nature of the Holy Spirit by making him a nonpersonal extension of God as a force or power.

IMO what has happened is the former Trinitarian in their quest to understand the Trinitarian view has led them to abondon their original faith and in doing so has led them to more confusion with the scriptures. Bsically they have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire IMO.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Cor 11:3, 4

Blessings!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The bible does not say the Spirit of God is a person
but you teach this?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,07:44)

Hi WJ, The bible does not say the Spirit of God is a person but you teach this?

NH

Is the Father a person?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Is it written?
These terms are added to justify a human doctrine.

The Word was with God in the beginning and the Spirit of God was moving over the waters.
Does God have a spirit?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,08:40)

Hi WJ, Is it written? These terms are added to justify a human doctrine. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Spirit of God was moving over the waters. Does God have a spirit?

NH

I hope so.

What does “the Spirit of God mean to you?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,08:40)

Hi WJ, Is it written? These terms are added to justify a human doctrine. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Spirit of God was moving over the waters. Does God have a spirit?

NH

Will you also line up with the Arians and deny the “person” of the Holy Spirit spoken of here…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

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