Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Amazing truth that it is what you have just explained my brother Gene. You rightly told why the activity of their pre-existing being was not mentioned in the whole of O.T. where as in the New Testament we were told that God spoke to us in these last days through His son because he(Jesus) is really existing. There is no mystery here every thing black and white.
Blessings
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollamudi…….very good point you brought out, that God spoke to us through the prophets in the old testament because Jesus did not exist then, but went on to say “Has spoken to US in the latter days through a Son. If only others could see these things, it would open so much to them. This is how i know GOD is with you because He is showing you these precious truths. And you can see through the deception of the false teachings of the trinity and preexistence theology which the trinitarians started.

Peace and may God keep your mind clear and He will…………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2008,16:49)

Hi GB, Does manifested mean BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE?

NH

No. “Manifested” does not mean “brought into existence”.

That definition is not found anywhere in Strongs…

“Was Manifest”…

Greek “phaneroo”, which means…

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

a) make actual and visible, realised

b) to make known by teaching

c) to become manifest, be made known

d) of a person

1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

1) who and what one is

AV — make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2, show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1

In all of the scriptures the word is found, not once do they even imply something “brought into existence”

The word in every case implies “Appear”.

Peter uses the same word later in chapter 5 of 1 Peter…

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, (phaneroo) ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Pet 5:4

Now we know Peter wasn't talking about Yeshua “coming into existence” for Yeshua was sitting at the right hand of God when he wrote this.

Peter is simply speaking of the foreknowledge of God and that the Father foreordained that Yeshua would come in the flesh fulfilling many prophesies.

An example of this is…

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

God foreknew and prophesied through Joel the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh.

The manifestation of this took place in Acts ch 2.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17

So question is “Did the Holy Spirit exist before it appeared in Acts 2”?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,04:30)

Gollamudi…….very good point you brought out, that God spoke to us through the prophets in the old testament because Jesus did not exist then, but went on to say “Has spoken to US in the latter days through a Son. If only others could see these things, it would open so much to them. This is how i know GOD is with you because He is showing you these precious truths. And you can see through the deception of the false teachings of the trinity and preexistence theology which the trinitarians started. Peace and may God keep your mind clear and He will…………….gene

Hi Gene, thanks and I hope everybody in this forum may also see that truth.

Hi WJ, Jesus was born of the Holy Sprit through Mary and also he was anointed by the Holy Spirit at Jordan.
In the Old Testament it was called as the Spirit of God means it belongs to God the Father the one and only God (Jn 5:44).
Adam.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,04:30)

Gollamudi…….very good point you brought out, that God spoke to us through the prophets in the old testament because Jesus did not exist then, but went on to say “Has spoken to US in the latter days through a Son. If only others could see these things, it would open so much to them. This is how i know GOD is with you because He is showing you these precious truths. And you can see through the deception of the false teachings of the trinity and preexistence theology which the trinitarians started. Peace and may God keep your mind clear and He will…………….gene

Hi GB,
I do not agree.
He was not yet MANIFEST IN FLESH.

Did Jesus exist after his resurrection? Yes but he was not always MANIFEST to them.
John 21:1
After these things Jesus manifested Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and He manifested Himself in this way.
John 21:14
This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead.

Secrets too exist, but are made manifest.

John 3:21
“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Jesus was the secret made manifest to angels and men.
Manifesting is revealing, not bringing into existence.

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
So Jesus was secret and concealed or was he not existing prior to his birth as we all did not exist prior to our birth?

[NickHassan]

Hi Gm,
Indeed Christ is the secret of God.
He is the mystery that was revealed in these last days.
Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
1 Timothy 3:16
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:He who was revealed in the flesh,Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,07:25)

Hi Gm, Indeed Christ is the secret of God. He is the mystery that was revealed in these last days. Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:He who was revealed in the flesh,Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NH

Amen.

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollmaudi…….true knowledge because Jesus was no longer a mystery after He came into existence at His berth. But before his existence He was talked about but never seen so that was a mystery until He was Manifested or as WJ,said made visible. He was made actual, why because He wasn't actual before. Thanks WJ, for the help.:D

Nick…..Jesus was manifested many times after His resection come on you know that. Sure He was a mystery He did not exist except in the plan of God He was ordained before the foundation of the world (BUT) became actual or (manifested) when he was born. Is that not what Peter said.

The great mystery is how God indwelt the man Jesus. is what i understand is a mystery, not the fact that Jesus was a man born on earth. No one knows how God does that and thats the mystery.I you take another look of what you wrote “Christ is the Mystery of God” I'll quote word for word (the anointing is the mystery of God) Do you know how God anoints us with His Spirit, I sure don't know how he does it, but He is able to some how. thats the mistery, It has to do with How God was in Jesus. Do you understand How the Father does that , I don't.

Jesus was revealed in the Flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angles, Proclaimed among nation,believed on in the world, taken up in glory. Yes , all those things are true. The second Adam was reveled to us as a flesh being, If he were truly a second Adam as scripture say and i believe he was why don't you accept it then, and quite trying to make more of it then it is.

IMO….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………God is Spirit and He is HOLY. So he is Holy Spirit right.

IMO…………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2008,16:49)

Hi GB, Does manifested mean BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE?

Nick….My dictionary says it that way, another way it say, is to become actual. Its like talking about something and then doing it, then it becomes actual, where before it wasn't actual it was just a plan. But then later came into existence. As Jesus did in my opinion.

Hope the clarified the point i was trying to make.

gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,08:42)

WJ………God is Spirit and He is HOLY. So he is Holy Spirit right. IMO…………….gene

GB

Yea and?

So God prophesied of himself being poured out on all flesh?

Is this what you mean?

The Holy Spirit did preexist the fulfillment of the prophesy which the Father foreknew, right?

If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father, then who is this…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,09:00)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2008,16:49) Hi GB, Does manifested mean BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE? Nick….My dictionary says it that way, another way it say, is to become actual. Its like talking about something and then doing it, then it becomes actual, where before it wasn't actual it was just a plan. But then later came into existence. As Jesus did in my opinion. Hope the clarified the point i was trying to make. gene

Hi GB,
The bible usage should be our guide.
Do hidden things exist before they are revealed?
Luke 8:17
For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

What of Jesus?
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

and God?
Romans 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 10 2008,06:36)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,04:30) Gollamudi…….very good point you brought out, that God spoke to us through the prophets in the old testament because Jesus did not exist then, but went on to say “Has spoken to US in the latter days through a Son. If only others could see these things, it would open so much to them. This is how i know GOD is with you because He is showing you these precious truths. And you can see through the deception of the false teachings of the trinity and preexistence theology which the trinitarians started. Peace and may God keep your mind clear and He will…………….gene Hi Gene, thanks and I hope everybody in this forum may also see that truth. Hi WJ, Jesus was born of the Holy Sprit through Mary and also he was anointed by the Holy Spirit at Jordan. In the Old Testament it was called as the Spirit of God means it belongs to God the Father the one and only God (Jn 5:44). Adam.

GM

Then how do you explain these scriptures that the Spirit is the Spirit of Yeshua…

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:9

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Phil 1:19

There is only One Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The Spirit of God was poured into Christ becoming in him the Spirit of Christ.
God still is the source of that Holy Spirit so can still be called the Spirit of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Manifest

Encarta

manifest  
man·i·fest [ mánnə fèst ]

adjective  Definition:
 
obvious: clear to see or understand

verb  (past and past participle man·i·fest·ed, present participle man·i·fest·ing, 3rd person present singular man·i·fests)

Definition:

Manifest  
1. transitive verb show something clearly: to make something evident by showing or demonstrating it very clearly

2. intransitive verb appear: to appear or be revealed

3. transitive verb include something in cargo list: to include something in a ship's cargo list
Source

Oxford

manifest1
 • adjective clear and obvious.

 • verb 1 show or demonstrate. 2 become apparent. 3 (of a ghost) appear.

 — DERIVATIVES manifestly adverb.

 — ORIGIN Latin manifestus ‘caught in the act, flagrant’.
Source

Merriam-Webster

Manifest
1 : readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight
2 : easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious
Source

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Definition:

manifest   Show phonetics
verb [T] FORMAL
to show something clearly, through signs or actions:
The workers chose to manifest their dissatisfaction in a series of strikes.
The illness first manifested itself in/as severe stomach pains.
Lack of confidence in the company manifested itself in a fall in the share price.

manifest   Show phonetics
adjective FORMAL
easily noticed or obvious:
There was manifest relief among the workers yesterday at the decision not to close the factory.
Her manifest lack of interest in the project has provoked severe criticism.
Source

There are plenty more Here.

I can't find a definition anywhere that says “BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE”.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,09:31)

Hi WJ, The Spirit of God was poured into Christ becoming in him the Spirit of Christ. God still is the source of that Holy Spirit so can still be called the Spirit of God.

NH

So the Father's Spirit has become Yeshua's Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
In Christ Yes.
But God still has His Spirit.
He pours again in the endtimes on all men[Jl2]

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollamudi……I'll explaine what WJ…..quoted to you and show you their error.

Let take it word for word . Rom8:9…> but you are not in the flesh, if so be that the (Spirit of God) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit (OF) Christ, He is none of His. The challenge is to understand what is meant by the Spirit (OF) Christ , To me it's the spirit Jesus had or the anointing He had. He is called the Anointed, thats what Christ means. Notice how at first Paul says if so be the (Spirit of God) dwell in you and then says the spirit of Christ its the same spirit Jesus had IN OTHER WORD. Paul was simply saying if anyone does not have the same spirit Jesus had in Him He simply is none of His, thats makes sense to me.

Phil 1:19 is saying the same thing the Spirit of God was in Jesus as well as us ,God is Spirit and can indwell all, if fact He is going to , That God may be all and in all, thats by the ONE God brought about BY the ONE Spirit of ONE GOD. Remember it say that God was (IN) Jesus reconciling the World to (HIMSELF). All done By ONE SPIRIT OF GOD THE FATHER>

Notice it does not say that the Spirit of Jesus is Jesus' Spirit, if that were the case that would make Jesus a lier, because He said the Father (IN) him Doth the works. The spirit of Jesus is the anointing He received from the Father if that Spirit be in you also it will produce works Just like it did in Jesus. All this trying to break up the spirit into two or three different one is pure nonsense.

ONE GOD Who is God the Father, One mediator Between Him and Us the (Man Jesus) the anointed Son of GOD and ONLY ONE Spirit that's in all and through all, it's all ONE SPIRIT doing it all.

peace to you……………gene

[942767]

Hi WJ:

If the Holy Spirit is not God's personal spirit then how do you interpret the following scripture?

Quote

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual

God Bless

[Author]

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