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Amen brother 942767,
I think we should settle withat, other than Jesus' present nature we need not discuss his past (pre-existence) which you and me don't believe at all.
Thanks
AdamHow can the following words of Jesus “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” mean the opposite?
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,14:22) How can the following words of Jesus “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” mean the opposite?
Hi t8:It means that he was fore-ordained.
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,God Bless
Hi 94,
Were you fore-ordained, were you a pre-existing plan of God, were you an idea in the mind of God before the foundation of the earth? Did you exist before Abraham? Did God create the world with you in mind?Just wondering?
LUQuote (Lightenup @ June 07 2008,14:59) Hi 94,
Were you fore-ordained, were you a pre-existing plan of God, were you an idea in the mind of God before the foundation of the earth? Did you exist before Abraham? Did God create the world with you in mind?Just wondering?
LU
No Lightenup:God has foreseen everything from the beginning to the end, and so he has seen when I will have come into the world and when I will go out, but Jesus is the promised child the saviour of the world, and so God made every thing that he made with him in mind. God knew that the precise moment in time that He would conceive a Son. I wasn't conceived of the Holy Ghost.
God Bless
Quote (Lightenup @ June 07 2008,15:12) 94,
So, are you saying that you did not exist as a plan in the mind of God before creation?
LU
Hi Lightenup:I was and am part of that plan, but I was born of the sperm of man and not as a result of being fore-ordained by God or planned by God to conceive me at a particular point in time.
And my born again experience is only as a result of God's gift of love to humanity or Lord Jesus. And it only through him that I will overcome sin. I am not the example for Christians to follow. He is. And I am not the propitiation for the sins of humanity. He is.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ June 07 2008,14:27) Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,14:22) How can the following words of Jesus “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” mean the opposite?
Hi t8:It means that he was fore-ordained.
Then why does every other mention of “ego eimi” have nothing to do with forordained and everything to do with existing. Think of the word 'ego'. What does that mean to you? We use that word in English.Here are other mentions of “ego eimi” none of them have anything to do with foreordained.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times. Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48. In verse 41, the Jews complained because not because he said, “I am (ego eimi) but that he was the bread which came down from heaven.” In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 also mentions “ego eimi”. In one of the verses above he is asked “Are you Jesus of Nazareth” and he answers “ego eimi”.
From what I can see, Jesus is identifying himself right there and then as you would if someone asked you “Are you such and such?” or “Are you an American?”. I am is a normal response to such questions. It is not a mysterious saying that means that the person is YHWH or was foreordained. The same goes for the following verses:
Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”
I am even sure that you use the words “I am” plenty of times yourself. And I bet that you have never meant it to say “I was foreordained”.
I will be honest and say that this teaching appears to have lots of gaping holes in it just as the Trinity Doctrine does. In both cases there are scriptures that do not agree with either stance. So I would like to say that any thinking person can see that we are not limited to 2 choices. i.e., God or Man. No Jesus was unique. Yes he partook of flesh, yet he existed in the form of God or with God's nature. And the promise to us is that we can partake of divine nature. So why is it so hard to see that the prototype son once existed in the form of God and then partook of flesh, in order so that he could redeem all flesh and let us partake in divine nature.
94,
So you were part of that plan before creation, so you could also say “before Abraham was born, I am.”
I know, so many questions, I'm just trying to understand some things about you. I hope you don't mind.
God loves you,
LUQuote (Lightenup @ June 07 2008,15:46) Hey t8,
We are in sync I think:laugh:
Great.I will be honest and say that I listen to what people say. But when scripture says otherwise, then I will choose scripture.
It is sad that men have to start with a doctrine and then fit scripture into it. If we start with mans understanding and fit scripture into it, then we will end with mans understanding.
We can only know about God by revelation of God by his Spirit. The scriptures were written under inspiration of the Spirit.
Peace.
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,15:42) Quote (942767 @ June 07 2008,14:27) Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,14:22) How can the following words of Jesus “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” mean the opposite?
Hi t8:It means that he was fore-ordained.
Then why does every other mention of “ego eimi” have nothing to do with forordained and everything to do with existing. Think of the word 'ego'. What does that mean to you? We use that word in English.Here are other mentions of “ego eimi” none of them have anything to do with foreordained.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times. Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48. In verse 41, the Jews complained because not because he said, “I am (ego eimi) but that he was the bread which came down from heaven.” In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 also mentions “ego eimi”. In one of the verses above he is asked “Are you Jesus of Nazareth” and he answers “ego eimi”.
From what I can see, Jesus is identifying himself right there and then as you would if someone asked you “Are you
” or “Are you an American”. The same goes for the following verses:Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”
I am even sure that you use the words “I am” plenty of times yourself. And I bet that you have never meant it to say “I was foreordained”.
I will be honest and say that this teaching appears to have lots of gaping holes in it just as the Trinity Doctrine does. In both cases there are scriptures that do not agree with either stance. So I would like to say that any thinking person can see that we are not limited to 2 choices. i.e., God or Man. No Jesus was unique. Yes he partook of flesh, yet he existed in the form of God or with God's nature. And the promise to us is that we can partake of divine nature. So why is it so hard to see that the prototype son once existed in the form of God and then partook of flesh, in order so that he could redeem all flesh and let us partake in divine nature.
Hi t8:I suppose it has to do with the context in which “ego emi” is used. “Before Abraham was, I am”, and not “I “ego emi” the bread of life, to use one of your examples.
We also have the following verse which precedes what he says, “ego emi”.
Quote Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad God Bless
“Before Abraham was, I am” doesn't mean “I was foreordained”.
If you swallow that, then why not swallow that teaching that Jesus is God. After all the same technique of changing scripture to meet a doctrine is also used there.
ego {eg-o'} – I, me, my
eimi {i-mee'} – to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,16:12) I think therefore I am.
Not I was foreordained therefore I am.
Sorry t8:It means he was fore-ordained to me because the scripture that I have quoted to you states that. He did pre-exist as the logos. Anyway, I have to go for the night.
God Bless
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,16:09) “Before Abraham was, I am” doesn't mean “I was foreordained”. If you swallow that, then why not swallow that teaching that Jesus is God. After all the same technique of changing scripture to meet a doctrine is also used there.
ego {eg-o'} – I, me, my
eimi {i-mee'} – to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Hi T8,
How many times this verse has been debated you are aware. You are asking 94 to interpret 'I am' to 'Jesus is God'. In fact all the Trinitarians and some of the non-trinitarians who believe pre-existence can infer like that, it is easy for them not for a monotheist like 94 or me.
Jesus never told that he was existing as some being before Abraham, you and many in this forum are interpreting this verse in that way. Why don't you see whole Bible that there is only one God and there was none else (besides Him) when He created this universe. See Isa 44:24. You think that your interpretation is only correct but with that wrong interpretation you are proving God wrong that there was some body who helped God in creation.
As I have already told you can not believe two doctrines at a time.
Pease think on these lines.
AdamHi GM,
It matters less that Jesus was the man from heaven compared with his gospel of salvation.
But I believe the truth does reveal his unique origins.Quote (gollamudi @ June 07 2008,18:39) Jesus never told that he was existing as some being before Abraham
Jesus said “before Abraham, I am”.That is what he said, and I believe what he said.
Quote (942767 @ June 07 2008,16:30) It means he was fore-ordained to me because the scripture that I have quoted to you states that.
Yes he was fore-ordained, but when Jesus said “before Abraham, I am” he wasn't talking about that. He said “ego eimi” and all other uses of that phrase in the New Testament have nothing to do with fore-ordained from what I have seen.He was before Abraham and he was fore-ordained.
Obviously we should believe both rather than choosing one and throwing out the other.
OK, so lets just ignore the scriptures that talk of Jesus in the glory that he had with the Father for a few minutes.
Lets imagine that he came into existence as a man 2000 or so years ago and didn't come down from heaven and partake of flesh as it is written.
Given that scenario/doctrine/teaching the following predicaments appear:
- If Adam hadn't of sinned, then there would be no Jesus.
- If there was no Jesus, then there would be no creation that God created all things through.
- There would be no image of the invisible God, therefore God would never be represented fully in any one being.
- Probably Michael would be the highest being as he is leader of the angels.
So no sin, no Jesus. Jesus was created as a backup plan to save man. Yet scripture says that all things were made for him. Doesn't sound like a backup plan to Adam's failings to me, sounds like plan A.
But this teaching that denies that Jesus said “before Abraham, I am” can only mean that Jesus is not God's primary will, but Adam was.
So ask yourself why Adam is the original man (firstborn) and why Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and has preeminence in all things. I wouldn't say that Adam was firstborn of all creation would you?
OK, now that I have proved my point, you can go back to remembering the scriptures that talk of Jesus glory with the Father before creation when I click my fingers.
Snap!
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