Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:30) Hi WJ, The men of old were also led by the Spirit of God. But none was blessed like the man from Nazareth.. Acts 10 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. NH Exactly. Anointed. The Anointing oil was poured over him. Yeshua had the Spirit without measure at his birth. IMO

Hi WJ,
If so then why did John say he was GIVEN IT?

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

There is no record of such being given at his birth
or evidence of that Spirit being active in him till the Jordan.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:30) Hi WJ, The men of old were also led by the Spirit of God. But none was blessed like the man from Nazareth.. Acts 10 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. NH Exactly. Anointed. The Anointing oil was poured over him. Yeshua had the Spirit without measure at his birth. IMO Hi WJ, If so then why did John say he was GIVEN IT? 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. There is no record of such being given at his birth or evidence of that Spirit being active in him till the Jordan.

NH

Exactly. Inference says it was given to him at birth or the Jordan.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So what was GIVEN to him?
What difference did that GIVING to him make ?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Was the Holy Spirit GIVEN to him?
WAs he GIVEN an anointing or GIVEN another person in God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,11:03)

Hi WJ, Was the Holy Spirit GIVEN to him? WAs he GIVEN an anointing or GIVEN another person in God?

NH

The same Spirit that Yeshua speaks of here…

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jn 14:17

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Right and we do not share in a person of God do we?
We are united in Christ with God by His Spirit.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,03:48)

GM, Do you not know anything about the active voice or passive voice regarding Greek verbs?  You ought to learn it because you would see that a “plan” can not “exist” on its own action. I have written several posts on this, go back and read them. Do you not know that monogenes can be and typically is translated as “only begotten”? Do you not know that Theos is translated “god/God”. Do you not know that “monogenes Theos” is in the first chapter on John, specifically John 1:18? John 1:17-18 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, NASU Did you not know that John says that Jesus is the True Light? This is also in the first chapter of John, specifically John 1:9. Also see John 8:12-13 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, ” I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” NASU   Did you not know that Paul refers to the Heavenly Father's beloved Son as the Firstborn of all creation which means the first to be born and be alive? Did you not realize that the Light on day one of creation was the first-born of all creation in otherwords, the first to be alive of all creation? Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NASU Did you not realize that “let there be light” was the WORD in the beginning and actually the first word said by the Most High God in the beginning of Genesis?  Also see in John 1 that the word in the beginning was with God and was God and was the true light that became flesh. Do you realize that a true begotten God could never be a true unbegotten and always existing God and never be His equal and that the unbegotten God would ALWAYS be the only ONE TRUE Most High God? Do you not realize these things?   You must not have by what you say in your post.  No wonder you do not understand my interpretation. No, you do not hurt me personally but you hurt yourself and I am sorry for that, I tried to help you and so did John and Paul (the John and Paul of the book of John and Colossians). Quote I don't want to hurt you personally but your interpretations are going in wrong direction by creating another begotten God. I am not creating “another” begotten God, you overestimate my ability.   There is only one begotten God and that is the Son of the Most High God who became the Messiah.  I do not believe that He was created but instead He was born.  God begat God, hence, the begotten God.  God didn't begat trees, He created trees.  He didn't beget man, He created Him.  Man begets man. My children were born of me, I did not create them.  The Son of God was born of God, God did not create Him.  God had everything He needed to reproduce one of His own kind always within Himself.  That “reproduction” could never be the original or always existent like the original. Heb 1:3 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature… NASU The exact representation of the nature of something is a reproduction, and not the original, IMO. By golly, Golla, I want to be your friend that helps you and not one that does you harm, please believe me. God bless, LU

Hi lightenUp,
I don't know greek at all and I am also not thorough in grammer seeing active/passive voices like you have told. But I understand scriptures in God's Spirit that's why I don't complicate things like many as they are doing with human mind. That's why I see there is utter confusion here.
1.You say God created light first and you also say that Son of God was that light and was begotten not created-Is it not a confusion you created?
2.God begets God where from you got such concepts in which way?
3. You said God can not beget man also believe He has fathered man Jesus -is it not a confusion?
4. You say children are born not created- are not created things give birth to created things, are you not a created being?
5. One side you believe monotheism and reject Trinitarianism and other side you say God begot another begotten God (not created) then what is so different your doctrine from trinitarians?
   One thing you have to understand Jesus was not pre-existing as some being prior to his birth on this earth, like we all do, God foreknown everybody in His plan according to His purpose and He set time boundaries for everything(one) to take birth on this earth it also happened in case of Jesus our Lord (Gal 4:4). I don't believe all complicated things and confuse everybody.
Peace to you all
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,08:55)

What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him

Well, OK.

That would be like saying to Mary, “Hey lady, we just need to use your body for 9 months, OK?  You're going to give birth to the Son of God, but the only thing your going to contribute is skin.  The rest will have nothing to do with you.”

That doesn't sound like conception to me.

Either Jesus was conceived or he wasn't.

Scripture says he was!

His body may not make him “divine” but it sure is a part of who Jesus is. I cannot separate the flesh I walk around in from who I am – Jesus couldn't either.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,08:52)

I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed His conception either, but I do believe that the heavenly being with the spirit of the only begotten son did exist and was born of God Himself on day one of creation as I think you probably know by now.

Yes, we are on different paths.

You have a unique idea such as myself. We were both told these ideas from the Lord. It's interesting, isn't it?

It's interesting considering the ideas oppose one another.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:07)

I guess that the sperm from the Heavenly Father that fertilized Mary was the kind that he designed for man to have in them. He knows how to make a male sperm afterall. Just trying to reason this out.

And if you reason this out all the way out to the end…..you'll have to abandoned your preexistent theory.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,09:08)

The only difference in Yeshuas physical birth and ours is his was supernatural because the Father created the sperm to cause Mary to concieve without sin.

And tell me the reason you cannot take this idea through it's natural course and say it was the God's sperm, per se, in that he provided what was needed. And that in fact, Jesus is God's literal Son?

Could the reason be that it would cause problems with your current theology?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:13)

If He was eternal, He would be no one's son. He might be a partner but not a son. LU

Wow. Excellent observation.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,09:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,09:08) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:50) Adam was a pattern of the one to come. One is from heaven, the other from earth. There is a difference.  I keep trying to point this out, but noone believes me. Mandy Yes Adam was a pattern. However Adam failed. Yeshua was made physically like Adam, in the “Likeness of sinful flesh”, yet without sin because God bypassed the man from which sin is passed down through. The only difference in Yeshuas physical birth and ours is his was supernatural because the Father created the sperm to cause Mary to concieve without sin. Adam was a living soul, Yeshua is a quickening Spirit. Hi WJ, Jesus WAS MADE a life giving spirit. 1Cor15 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.   His anointing MADE HIM the source of the life giving Spirit for the sons of God. He was not the Holy Spirit but was given the Holy Spirit at the Jordan and he shares that Spirit of Christ with us.

I disagree that you think he became this lifegiving spirit at the Jordan. I don't think it happened until after he was resurrected!

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:35)

Colossians tells us that the Son of God was born before anything was IN heaven or ON earth. There s you scripture that makes Him a son before Mary.

Not a big deal, but if you have time can you elaborate on this for me? Thanks, Mandy

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:20)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,09:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,09:08) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:50) Adam was a pattern of the one to come. One is from heaven, the other from earth. There is a difference.  I keep trying to point this out, but noone believes me. Mandy Yes Adam was a pattern. However Adam failed. Yeshua was made physically like Adam, in the “Likeness of sinful flesh”, yet without sin because God bypassed the man from which sin is passed down through. The only difference in Yeshuas physical birth and ours is his was supernatural because the Father created the sperm to cause Mary to concieve without sin. Adam was a living soul, Yeshua is a quickening Spirit. Hi WJ, Jesus WAS MADE a life giving spirit. 1Cor15 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.   His anointing MADE HIM the source of the life giving Spirit for the sons of God. He was not the Holy Spirit but was given the Holy Spirit at the Jordan and he shares that Spirit of Christ with us. I disagree that you think he became this lifegiving spirit at the Jordan.  I don't think it happened until after he was resurrected!

Hi not3,
You are right in that he did not share his Spirit till then.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,08:55)

What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:03)

That would be like saying to Mary, “Hey lady, we just need to use your body for 9 months, OK?  You're going to give birth to the Son of God, but the only thing your going to contribute is skin.

Mandy

Isn’t that all that the woman contributes anyway?
Who does the creating? The woman? Who does the forming?
If Mary contributed 100% to Yeshua as a man then what did the Father do?

But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. Isa 43:1

Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isa 44:2

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:03)

That doesn't sound like conception to me. Either Jesus was conceived or he wasn't. Scripture says he was!

A woman’s body and the sperm doesn’t birth the soul and Spirit, which God breathes into the body and man becomes a living soul/spirit. If so why are there miscarriages and still deaths. The body is the temple, which the man lives in.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:03)

His body may not make him “divine” but it sure is a part of who Jesus is.  I cannot separate the flesh I walk around in from who I am – Jesus couldn't either. Mandy

Then how would the thief on the cross be with Yeshua in Paradise? Are there flesh bodies in heaven?

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:9, 10

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,09:08)

The only difference in Yeshua’s physical birth and ours is his was supernatural because the Father created the sperm to cause Mary to conceive without sin.

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:16)

And tell me the reason you cannot take this idea through it's natural course and say it was the God's sperm, per se, in that he provided what was needed.  And that in fact, Jesus is God's literal Son?

God doesn’t have sperm. God creates sperm. God doesn’t have DNA God creates DNA.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Heb 10:5

Compare…

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. John 8:23

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,15:16)

Could the reason be that it would cause problems with your current theology?

Could it be it causes problems with yours?

[Not3in1]

Hey Keith,

Quote

Isn’t that all that the woman contributes anyway? Who does the creating? The woman? Who does the forming?

Unless we are talking about the same thing we will never come to an understanding.  When talking about conception, we have to at least agree what conception is.  It sounds like we believe it means two different things.  Obviously a women doesn't just contribute SKIN.  Come on, now.  Give us more credit than that.  What we know of reproduction gives us a lot more credit than that!  

Quote

But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. Isa 43:1

Forming a nation of people is a little different than fathering a son.

Quote

A woman’s body and the sperm doesn’t birth the soul and Spirit, which God breathes into the body and man becomes a living soul/spirit

I disagree.  I believe that the union of the two parents provide all that is needed for the new individual – including their personality and spirit (life).  It gets pretty dicey when you want to take a human a part and ascribe “sections” of the human and who contributed what.  

Quote

God doesn’t have sperm. God creates sperm. God doesn’t have DNA God creates DNA.

This is perhaps true, however, it still doesn't negate God providing what was needed as the source of Jesus.

Quote

Could it be it causes problems with yours?

I won't lie to you, the scriptures say that Jesus is conceived and I believe them.  If for some strange reason I find out differently or find that the scriptures are wrong……I'll have a problem with that.
Thanks for the chat,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 03 2008,23:39)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:35) Colossians tells us that the Son of God was born before anything was IN heaven or ON earth.  There s you scripture that makes Him a son before Mary. Not a big deal, but if you have time can you elaborate on this for me?  Thanks, Mandy

Mandy,
If the term “firstborn” means the first to be born and it refers to God's beloved son and then it is said that by the beloved Son all things were created in the heavens and on earth, well, doesn't that make Him a Son that was born BEFORE anything was in heaven or on earth. That is simple to me, not confusing.

Col 1:13-16
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
NASU
Heb 1:2-3
in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
NASU

Lord please show your truth to us, gather your sheep into one flock and unite us in your love. Amen.
Kathi

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,17:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 03 2008,23:39) Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:35) Colossians tells us that the Son of God was born before anything was IN heaven or ON earth.  There s you scripture that makes Him a son before Mary. Not a big deal, but if you have time can you elaborate on this for me?  Thanks, Mandy Mandy, If the term “firstborn” means the first to be born and it refers to God's beloved son and then it is said that by the beloved Son all things were created in the heavens and on earth, well, doesn't that make Him a Son that was born BEFORE anything was in heaven or on earth.  That is simple to me, not confusing. Col 1:13-16 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, NASU Heb 1:2-3 in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. NASU Lord please show your truth to us, gather your sheep into one flock and unite us in your love. Amen. Kathi

How many times has this Scripture gone up and yet not to many seem to want to understand it. It seems so simple to me.
Not only Col. 1:15-16 but also Rev. 3:14 seems so simple to me.
I agree and hope that we will be united in the same understanding, that Jesus as the Word was with the Father before the world was.
John 1:1
Peace and Love Irene

[Author]

Posts