Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:01)

Hi WJ, How many times have you been born? At least twice? The Son we follow was born again.

NH

Scriptures please?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,17:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:46) I guess not.  What do you think it means? Anyway, I do believe that God is the source of everything (including his own Son, Jesus).  Because Jesus is human, he provided what was needed.  Pure and simple.  In my opinion, of course.   Mandy The creation of man was twofold. God formed him from the dust of the ground and then breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul/spirit. What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him, (Heb 10:5) which was purely physical. It is the Eternal Spirit which was with God. John 1:1 So Yeshua is the Word/Spirit which was made flesh or tabernacled among us. John 1:14, Phil 2:4-6 Blessings! Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU Hi LU There is no scripture that says Yeshua was a son before he was born a son. Sons of God in the Hebrew scriptures are said to be angels. This may explain why the JWs believe Yeshua was Michael. For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:2 John goes on to confirm in this Epistle who it is that was with the Father. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET Foot note. The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life. There simply is no unambiguous scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a begining. Blessings.

Hi WJ,
John 5:26-27
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
NASU

Please note:
He GAVE to the son also to have life in Himself. He didn't always have it if it had to be given to Him.

Peace,
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02)

Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit?

NH

The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

[Not3in1]

We have 5 Christians who are currently debating this topic.

We all have different ideas.
We all read the same book.
We all have the same Spirit.

Press on, brother's and sister's – press on!

Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,17:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:46) I guess not.  What do you think it means? Anyway, I do believe that God is the source of everything (including his own Son, Jesus).  Because Jesus is human, he provided what was needed.  Pure and simple.  In my opinion, of course.   Mandy The creation of man was twofold. God formed him from the dust of the ground and then breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul/spirit. What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him, (Heb 10:5) which was purely physical. It is the Eternal Spirit which was with God. John 1:1 So Yeshua is the Word/Spirit which was made flesh or tabernacled among us. John 1:14, Phil 2:4-6 Blessings! Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU Hi LU There is no scripture that says Yeshua was a son before he was born a son. Sons of God in the Hebrew scriptures are said to be angels. This may explain why the JWs believe Yeshua was Michael. For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:2 John goes on to confirm in this Epistle who it is that was with the Father. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET Foot note. The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life. There simply is no unambiguous scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a begining. Blessings. Hi WJ, John 5:26-27 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU Please note: He GAVE to the son also to have life in Himself.  He didn't always have it if it had to be given to Him. Peace, LU

Hi LU

The scripture you quote is post Incarnation and ambiguous.

The life in himself here in context is speaking of the natural life of man which he speaks of raising from the dead.

The reason Yeshua says the Father gave him life in himself is no other man had that power. Yeshua claims that he can raise himself from the dead.

The life of the flesh is in the blood. Yeshua had the power to lay down his life and to take it again. That commandment he recieved from the Father after he who was rich became poor for our sakes. Phil 2:4-6

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit? NH The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Hi WJ,
So he was not given that Spirit?
He was not MADE a life giving Spirit?
The Jordan account differs with that view.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:01) Hi WJ, How many times have you been born? At least twice? The Son we follow was born again. NH Scriptures please?

Hi WJ,
If we are told we must be born again and follow Christ
could it be be cannot follow him?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit? NH The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hi WJ, So he was not given that Spirit? He was not MADE a life giving Spirit? The Jordan account differs with that view.

NH

The Jordan account says nothing about Yeshua being filled with the Spirit.

It says the “Spirit as a dove sat on him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:01) Hi WJ, How many times have you been born? At least twice? The Son we follow was born again. NH Scriptures please? Hi WJ, If we are told we must be born again and follow Christ could it be be cannot follow him?

NH

This is such a straw.

How did Enoch and those before Yeshua follow God?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:22)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit? NH The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hi WJ, So he was not given that Spirit? He was not MADE a life giving Spirit? The Jordan account differs with that view. NH The Jordan account says nothing about Yeshua being filled with the Spirit. It says the “Spirit as a dove sat on him.

Hi WJ,
So it was just a ritual or a ceremony?

Funny that Lk 4 tells us that immediately after this event

“1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, ”

Nowhere before this time are such words said about him and this is when his ministry of power began

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The men of old were also led by the Spirit of God.
But none was blessed like the man from Nazareth..
Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit? NH The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hi WJ, So he was not given that Spirit? He was not MADE a life giving Spirit? The Jordan account differs with that view. NH The Jordan account says nothing about Yeshua being filled with the Spirit. It says the “Spirit as a dove sat on him. Hi WJ, So it was just a ritual or a ceremony? Funny that Lk 4 tells us that immediately after this event “1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,  ” Nowhere before this time are such words said about him and this is when his ministry of power began

NH

Inference.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The Son was uniquely blessed.
Jn 3
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,17:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:46) I guess not.  What do you think it means? Anyway, I do believe that God is the source of everything (including his own Son, Jesus).  Because Jesus is human, he provided what was needed.  Pure and simple.  In my opinion, of course.   Mandy The creation of man was twofold. God formed him from the dust of the ground and then breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul/spirit. What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him, (Heb 10:5) which was purely physical. It is the Eternal Spirit which was with God. John 1:1 So Yeshua is the Word/Spirit which was made flesh or tabernacled among us. John 1:14, Phil 2:4-6 Blessings! Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU LU Yeshua's sonship started here… And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Lk 1:35 The Holy thing that was to be born would be called the “Son of God”! In response to this I thought Is 1:18 had a good answer Here. “I don't mind replying. I don't hold that Yeshua was the perpetual Son. I think scriptures like Luke 1:35, Romans 1:4 and Hebrews 1:5 unmistakably bear out that the sonship of Yeshua relates to His earthly birth. That is not to say that He did not preexist the incarnation – He did! As the Logos”. Endure sound teaching….. http://bibletools.org/index.c….NT Blessings.

Hello again WJ,

I read this with a different emphasis:

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Lk 1:35

I think that this clears up any misunderstanding that might call the child the biological son of Joseph.

“…therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” and not the son of Joseph.

His sonship as Yeshua started with Mary.
Matt 1:21
21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus,
NASU

His sonship as the begotten God started before creation as the “firstborn of all creation”. He was the first to be BORN before the rest of creation. Always a Son of God. A firstborn lamb is also the first male to come out of the womb. The firstborn lamb sacrifice was an example of what the Son of God would be for us. Colossians tells us that the Son of God was born before anything was IN heaven or ON earth. There s you scripture that makes Him a son before Mary.

His sonship with power and authority started at His resurrection:

Acts 13:30-35
30 “But God raised Him from the dead; 31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. 32 “And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' 34 “As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ' I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'
NASU

With all due respect,
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:30)

Hi WJ, The men of old were also led by the Spirit of God. But none was blessed like the man from Nazareth.. Acts 10 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

NH

Exactly. Anointed. The Anointing oil was poured over him.

Yeshua had the Spirit without measure at his birth. IMO

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:31)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,10:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, What do you make of Jesus BECOMING a life giving Spirit? NH The second Adam was made a life giving Spirit because of the Word/Spirit that came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hi WJ, So he was not given that Spirit? He was not MADE a life giving Spirit? The Jordan account differs with that view. NH The Jordan account says nothing about Yeshua being filled with the Spirit. It says the “Spirit as a dove sat on him. Hi WJ, So it was just a ritual or a ceremony? Funny that Lk 4 tells us that immediately after this event “1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,  ” Nowhere before this time are such words said about him and this is when his ministry of power began NH Inference.

Hi WJ,
So the verse about his anointing in Acts 10 is false?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So he had the Spirit but was not that Spirit from birth?
So he was a vessel for God?

Evidence is slim that as an infant or child he did works of power.

You say he always had these innate abilities and God's anointing with the Spirit changed him not at all?

How can we follow such a God?
An anointed man we can follow.

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,18:18)

Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU[/quote] Hi LU There is no scripture that says Yeshua was a son before he was born a son. Sons of God in the Hebrew scriptures are said to be angels. This may explain why the JWs believe Yeshua was Michael. For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:2 John goes on to confirm in this Epistle who it is that was with the Father. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET Foot note. The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life. There simply is no unambiguous scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a begining. Blessings.[/quote] Hi WJ, John 5:26-27 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU Please note: He GAVE to the son also to have life in Himself.  He didn't always have it if it had to be given to Him. Peace, LU[/quote] Hi LU The scripture you quote is post Incarnation and ambiguous. The life in himself here in context is speaking of the natural life of man which he speaks of raising from the dead. The reason Yeshua says the Father gave him life in himself is no other man had that power. Yeshua claims that he can raise himself from the dead. The life of the flesh is in the blood. Yeshua had the power to lay down his life and to take it again. That commandment he recieved from the Father after he who was rich became poor for our sakes. Phil 2:4-6 Blessings

John 5:26-27
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
NASU

You say:
The life in himself here in context is speaking of the natural life of man which he speaks of raising from the dead.

I say:
So are you saying that the Father has the “natural life of man” in Himself. I do not agree with that.

LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,17:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:46) I guess not.  What do you think it means? Anyway, I do believe that God is the source of everything (including his own Son, Jesus).  Because Jesus is human, he provided what was needed.  Pure and simple.  In my opinion, of course.   Mandy The creation of man was twofold. God formed him from the dust of the ground and then breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul/spirit. What makes Yeshua Divine is not his body which the Lord prepared for him, (Heb 10:5) which was purely physical. It is the Eternal Spirit which was with God. John 1:1 So Yeshua is the Word/Spirit which was made flesh or tabernacled among us. John 1:14, Phil 2:4-6 Blessings! Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU LU Yeshua's sonship started here… And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Lk 1:35 The Holy thing that was to be born would be called the “Son of God”! In response to this I thought Is 1:18 had a good answer Here. “I don't mind replying. I don't hold that Yeshua was the perpetual Son. I think scriptures like Luke 1:35, Romans 1:4 and Hebrews 1:5 unmistakably bear out that the sonship of Yeshua relates to His earthly birth. That is not to say that He did not preexist the incarnation – He did! As the Logos”. Endure sound teaching….. http://bibletools.org/index.c….NT Blessings. Hello again WJ, I read this with a different emphasis: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Lk 1:35 I think that this clears up any misunderstanding that might call the child the biological son of Joseph. “…therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” and not the son of Joseph. His sonship as Yeshua started with Mary. Matt 1:21 21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, NASU His sonship as the begotten God started before creation as the “firstborn of all creation”. He was the first to be BORN before the rest of creation.  Always a Son of God.  A firstborn lamb is also the first male to come out of the womb.  The firstborn lamb sacrifice was an example of what the Son of God would be for us. Colossians tells us that the Son of God was born before anything was IN heaven or ON earth.  There s you scripture that makes Him a son before Mary. His sonship with power and authority started at His resurrection: Acts 13:30-35 30 “But God raised Him from the dead; 31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. 32 “And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise  to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' 34 “As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ' I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.' NASU With all due respect, LU

Hi LU

Still post incarnation as far as calling the Son a son of God before he was born a Son.

As far as firstborn, I dont have time to go over it now but your interpretation of it is ambiguous I believe.

As far as the scripture in Acts 13:30-35 is also ambiguous and gives no clear time frame when the Father says “This day thou art my Son” In fact it leans toward being post ressurection when Yeshua sat down at the right hand of the Father.

I will get back to the rest no time now!

Blessings  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,10:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2008,18:18) Hi again WJ, You say eternal spirit and this is one point where I disagree with you.  If He was eternal, He would be no one's son.  He might be a partner but not a son. LU Hi LU There is no scripture that says Yeshua was a son before he was born a son. Sons of God in the Hebrew scriptures are said to be angels. This may explain why the JWs believe Yeshua was Michael. For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:2 John goes on to confirm in this Epistle who it is that was with the Father. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET Foot note. The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life. There simply is no unambiguous scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a begining. Blessings.

Quote

Hi WJ, John 5:26-27 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU Please note: He GAVE to the son also to have life in Himself.  He didn't always have it if it had to be given to Him. Peace, LU

Quote

Hi LU The scripture you quote is post Incarnation and ambiguous. The life in himself here in context is speaking of the natural life of man which he speaks of raising from the dead. The reason Yeshua says the Father gave him life in himself is no other man had that power. Yeshua claims that he can raise himself from the dead. The life of the flesh is in the blood. Yeshua had the power to lay down his life and to take it again. That commandment he recieved from the Father after he who was rich became poor for our sakes. Phil 2:4-6 Blessings

Quote

John 5:26-27 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU You say: The life in himself here in context is speaking of the natural life of man which he speaks of raising from the dead. I say: So are you saying that the Father has the “natural life of man” in Himself.  I do not agree with that. LU

LU

No, I am saying just as the Fathers life is self-existent so was the Sons life as a man, self-existent. He had power over his own life. The power to lay it down and the power to take it again. No other man has this power.

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