Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 02 2008,16:20)

Mandy From where did God send Jesus from? John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the wrold to condemn the wrold……… Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Certainly Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God. I have shared my interpretation of this many times.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
We were not.
His origins are different but his choices led him to be just like us.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,16:32)

Hi not3, We were not. His origins are different but his choices led him to be just like us.

Correct!

Jesus is a new creation.
We will follow him.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
A second Adam.
But just a vessel for God as we are.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,16:32)

His origins are different but his choices led him to be just like us.

Actually I think you may have this a little backwards, imo.

Our origins are all the same. As you have recently said, we all come from God.

However, Jesus choices led him to be the opposite of us. He was sinless.

[942767]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 02 2008,16:20)

Mandy From where did God send Jesus from? John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the wrold to condemn the wrold……… Love Irene

Hi Mrs:

Quote

Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,16:35)

Hi not3, A second Adam. But just a vessel for God as we are.

Adam was a pattern of the one to come……

Jesus was more than just a vessel, he was his Son. I think you use the term “vessel” to loosely sometimes.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
His parenting by his Father taught him through suffering how to avoid sin.
He overcame sin in the flesh[Rom1]

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,16:37)

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 02 2008,16:20) Mandy From where did God send Jesus from? John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the wrold to condemn the wrold……… Love Irene Hi Mrs: Quote Jhn 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jhn 17:18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Excellent, 94. Thank you.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,16:38)

Hi not3, His parenting by his Father taught him through suffering how to avoid sin. He overcame sin in the flesh[Rom1]

He avoided it alright!

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,15:23)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2008,16:11) Hi 94, Good for you to actually look it up in the interlinear and see for yourself that John 1:18 says “only begotten God”.  It is good for you to pray about it.  I don't imagine that you will hear anything unless you put your notions on the altar and give Him reign to show you what He wants to show you. God bless you, 94 Hi Lightenup: I have mentioned elsewhere that as part of my morning prayer I ask God every day that if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or if I am doing anything that is not His will that he correct me. I certainly do not want to mislead anyone, and I am sure you do not either, and my concern is not seeking to prove everyone else wrong and to be right at the expense of the unity of the church. I am not a Greek scholar, and I am sure there are many who participate in this forum who are better educated than me, and perhaps, some that are more intelligent than me.  I have made many mistakes in my walk with the Lord and he has corrected me many times.   So then, God has shown me that he will use be as a bishop in the church not because I have never made a mistake but because I have endured correction.  In fact I have made some very stupid mistakes, but because of this in the position of a bishop perhaps the very fact that I have made mistakes like this it will keep me in the spirit of humility. Also, God has shown me to always approach someone with whom I have a difference in understanding of scripture with the attitude that maybe it is I that could be wrong.  If I am wrong, I want God to correct me quickly. Let me summarize what I believe that you and others are saying about the subject of pre-existence.  Correct me if I am wrong on any of this.  If I am going to be corrected, I have to begin by understanding what you believe. You say that the Logos cannot be a plan because it is a noun that is showing action rather than a plan that is being acted upon.  Others have said that the way that was is used in this scripture it denotes continuous existence.  Is this what you believe so far?  In essence what I understand you to say, is that the Logos was a begotten God who was present with God in the beginning. It was he who created everything in the universe for himself.  It was he who laid the foundation of the earth.  He was in the form of God and equal with God but did not let this equality with God go to his head.  As a Son of God he did not relinquish being God but humbled himself and was begotten of God as a man and obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God.  He is now at the right hand of God as God the Son in the position as head of the church. Is that what you believe?

Dear 94,
Bless you, 94, your post here has touched my heart. Having a spirit of correction is a rare and wonderful thing. I have been corrected in the past and one time was with my stand on the trinity which I have since given up. I told my little daughter (who likes to correct me alot) that I like it when someone else proves to me that I am wrong in my thinking because then I can know truth clearer. I love the truth and you seem to also. Praise God for your spirit in this.

I really appreciate that you care what I believe enough to take the time to write out what you think that I believe and want me to verify it. Thank you for caring!

I am exhausted from giving a party today so I hope that I can make sense to you. I will now attempt to give you my understanding in regards to what you think that I understand. Mind you, my understanding is just that. It is not meant to be a teaching to make anyone change their ways but perhaps if God has shown me something that you do not yet see, He may use my words here to spark a search within you bright enough to help you let go of a stronghold of incorrect thinking. I want to be willing for that to happen in my life as well. So, here goes…

Quote

You say that the Logos cannot be a plan because it is a noun that is showing action rather than a plan that is being acted upon.

Very close, 94, I say that the Logos cannot be a plan because (as the subject of the clause) it was doing the existing itself. If it were a plan or idea someone would have to cause it to have existed.

It is written in the “active” voice which means that the subject is doing the action. As opposed to the “passive” voice where the action is being done to the subject.

Quote

Others have said that the way that was is used in this scripture it denotes continuous existence. Is this what you believe so far?

No, I do not. I believe it is used in the general past tense.

Regarding John 1:1

In the beginning, was the word (logos)
and the word was with God,
and the word was God.

“Was” is the verb in each clause. “Was” is the English past tense form for the “state of being” verb-“to be”. In the greek, it is in the “imperfect tense.”

The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.”

NOW PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION HERE (remember “was is a form of the verb “to be”):
In the case of the verb “to be,” however, the imperfect tense is used as a GENERAL PAST TENSE and DOES NOT carry the connotation of continual or repeated action.
source:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=5713&tool=grk

Quote

In essence what I understand you to say, is that the Logos was a begotten God who was present with God in the beginning.

What I say is that the “LIGHT” was the begotten God who was present with God from the beginning of the seven days of creation.

The Son of God is not the spoken word (Logos) of God that is referred to in John 1:1 but He is what the spoken word (Logos) is declaring. In other words, He is the “light” of day one which the word of God declared when He said “Let there be light.”

I have given this illustration before:

Picture yourself in the audience of a play. At the beginning of the play the stage is already set with a background (this background happens to be the realm of heaven and a void earth.) Then the narrator says the first words of the play “let there be light” and then the curtain opens and on the stage we see the newly born Son of God who lit up the stage by his radiance. You see, He wasn't the word (logos) that the narrator spoke, He was the light that the narrator was referring to by the word (logos) He spoke. IMO

In the beginning was the word “let there be light”
and the light was with God,
and the light was the begotten God.

That is my understanding on “logos” in John 1:1.

Quote

It was he who created everything in the universe for himself. It was he who laid the foundation of the earth.

I understand that in Gen 1:1, the Most High God alone created the realm of heaven and the place called earth. The Most High God alone created the VOID earth. Then His only begotten son was born and was the”Light” and by Him all things were created which FILLED the VOID earth, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Quote

He was in the form of God and equal with God but did not let this equality with God go to his head.

He was in the form of God as the begotten God but did not consider holding on to the privledges He had as the begotten God so that He could make himself a bondservant.

Quote

As a Son of God he did not relinquish being God but humbled himself and was begotten of God as a man and obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God. He is now at the right hand of God as God the Son in the position as head of the church.

As a Begotten God, he could not stop being the begotten God just because He was put into a new body, one that was conceived in Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. Sort of like an actor can't possibly stop being who he really is while confined in a costume and playing a different character. He was the actual spirit of the begotten God placed in the “costume” of the human body of a man. A man that does not carry on the original sin because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not a fleshly man. He became the begotten God that took on the limits of a natural fleshly human baby and grew to be an adult, like us, until His resurrection.

During his time as a man, He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God. He is now at the right hand of God as the exalted begotten God with power, the Son of the Most High God, in the position as head of the church with the Most High God as His head.

I hope you can understand this. If you have any questions, let me know.

God bless you, 94

[gollamudi]

Hi LightenUp,
You are completely out of Bible in interpreting these scriptures like Jn 1:1 or Gen 1:1-3. By claiming the 'word' as separate being other than one God you are making yourself another trap of creating more than one God like JW. Please be careful in interpreting scriptures like this. Even a Trinitarian will laugh at your interpretation like you did above. Don't deviate from monotheism what Jesus taught us ” One God created us without any one's help”.
I don't want to hurt you personally but your interpretations are going in wrong direction by creating another begotten God.
Sorry to bother you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
So Paul lied when he said there are many gods and that Satan was the god of this world?

[dirtyknections]

Here are some scriptures I posted in another similar thread that show Jesus pre existence

Colossians 1:15

Phillipians 2:7

John 1:1-3

John 1:18

John 13:19

Daniel 3:25

1 Cor 10:4,9

Hebrews 11:24-26

Gen 1:26

John 1:15

Rev 22:16

Micah 5:2

Ephesians 3:8-11

Proverbs 8:1-32…

[GeneBalthrop]

dk…… out of all you list show me one that (says)..Jesus preexisted as a ( being) before he was born on earth. And I don't mean inferences but absolute says it. We have went over these scriptures 100's of times it Just is not there. every thing you gave can be taken as a (foreordained Plan) as Peter said He was.

IMO……………gene

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2008,17:44)

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,15:23) Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2008,16:11) Hi 94, Good for you to actually look it up in the interlinear and see for yourself that John 1:18 says “only begotten God”.  It is good for you to pray about it.  I don't imagine that you will hear anything unless you put your notions on the altar and give Him reign to show you what He wants to show you. God bless you, 94 Hi Lightenup: I have mentioned elsewhere that as part of my morning prayer I ask God every day that if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or if I am doing anything that is not His will that he correct me. I certainly do not want to mislead anyone, and I am sure you do not either, and my concern is not seeking to prove everyone else wrong and to be right at the expense of the unity of the church. I am not a Greek scholar, and I am sure there are many who participate in this forum who are better educated than me, and perhaps, some that are more intelligent than me.  I have made many mistakes in my walk with the Lord and he has corrected me many times.   So then, God has shown me that he will use be as a bishop in the church not because I have never made a mistake but because I have endured correction.  In fact I have made some very stupid mistakes, but because of this in the position of a bishop perhaps the very fact that I have made mistakes like this it will keep me in the spirit of humility. Also, God has shown me to always approach someone with whom I have a difference in understanding of scripture with the attitude that maybe it is I that could be wrong.  If I am wrong, I want God to correct me quickly. Let me summarize what I believe that you and others are saying about the subject of pre-existence.  Correct me if I am wrong on any of this.  If I am going to be corrected, I have to begin by understanding what you believe. You say that the Logos cannot be a plan because it is a noun that is showing action rather than a plan that is being acted upon.  Others have said that the way that was is used in this scripture it denotes continuous existence.  Is this what you believe so far?  In essence what I understand you to say, is that the Logos was a begotten God who was present with God in the beginning. It was he who created everything in the universe for himself.  It was he who laid the foundation of the earth.  He was in the form of God and equal with God but did not let this equality with God go to his head.  As a Son of God he did not relinquish being God but humbled himself and was begotten of God as a man and obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God.  He is now at the right hand of God as God the Son in the position as head of the church. Is that what you believe? Dear 94, Bless you, 94, your post here has touched my heart.  Having a spirit of correction is a rare and wonderful thing.  I have been corrected in the past and one time was with my stand on the trinity which I have since given up.  I told my little daughter (who likes to correct me alot) that I like it when someone else proves to me that I am wrong in my thinking because then I can know truth clearer.  I love the truth and you seem to also.  Praise God for your spirit in this. I really appreciate that you care what I believe enough to take the time to write out what you think that I believe and want me to verify it.  Thank you for caring! I am exhausted from giving a party today so I hope that I can make sense to you.  I will now attempt to give you my understanding in regards to what you think that I understand.  Mind you, my understanding is just that.  It is not meant to be a teaching to make anyone change their ways but perhaps if God has shown me something that you do not yet see, He may use my words here to spark a search within you bright enough to help you let go of a stronghold of incorrect thinking.  I want to be willing for that to happen in my life as well.  So, here goes… Quote You say that the Logos cannot be a plan because it is a noun that is showing action rather than a plan that is being acted upon. Very close, 94, I say that the Logos cannot be a plan because (as the subject of the clause) it was doing the existing itself.  If it were a plan or idea someone would have to cause it to have existed.   It is written in the “active” voice which means that the subject is doing the action.  As opposed to the “passive” voice where the action is being done to the subject. Quote Others have said that the way that was is used in this scripture it denotes continuous existence.  Is this what you believe so far? No, I do not.  I believe it is used in the general past tense. Regarding John 1:1 In the beginning, was the word (logos) and the word was with God, and the word was God. “Was” is the verb in each clause.  “Was” is the English past tense form for the “state of being” verb-“to be”.  In the greek, it is in the “imperfect tense.”   The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.” NOW PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION HERE (remember “was is a form of the verb “to be”): In the case of the verb “to be,” however, the imperfect tense is used as a GENERAL PAST TENSE and DOES NOT carry the connotation of continual or repeated action. source: http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=5713&tool=grk Quote In essence what I understand you to say, is that the Logos was a begotten God who was present with God in the beginning. What I say is that the “LIGHT” was the begotten God who was present with God from the beginning of the seven days of creation. The Son of God is not the spoken word (Logos) of God that is referred to in John 1:1 but He is what the spoken word (Logos) is declaring.  In other words, He is the “light” of day one which the word of God declared when He said “Let there be light.”   I have given this illustration before: Picture yourself in the audience of a play.  At the beginning of the play the stage is already set with a background (this background happens to be the realm of heaven and a void earth.)  Then the narrator says the first words of the play “let there be light”  and then the curtain opens and on the stage we see the newly born Son of God who lit up the stage by his radiance.  You see, He wasn't the word (logos) that the narrator spoke, He was the light that the narrator was referring to by the word (logos) He spoke.  IMO In the beginning was the word “let there be light” and the light was with God, and the light was the begotten God. That is my understanding on “logos” in John 1:1. Quote It was he who created everything in the universe for himself.  It was he who laid the foundation of the earth. I understand that in Gen 1:1, the Most High God alone created the realm of heaven and the place called earth.  The Most High God alone created the VOID earth.  Then His only begotten son was born and was the”Light” and by Him all things were created which FILLED the VOID earth, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. Quote He was in the form of God and equal with God but did not let this equality with God go to his head. He was in the form of God as the begotten God but did not consider holding on to the privledges He had as the begotten God so that He could make himself a bondservant. Quote As a Son of God he did not relinquish being God but humbled himself and was begotten of God as a man and obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God.  He is now at the right hand of God as God the Son in the position as head of the church. As a Begotten God, he could not stop being the begotten God just because He was put into a new body, one that was conceived in Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Sort of like an actor can't possibly stop being who he really is while confined in a costume and playing a different character.   He was the actual spirit of the begotten God placed in the “costume” of the human body of a man.  A man that does not carry on the original sin because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not a fleshly man.  He became the begotten God that took on the limits of a natural fleshly human baby and grew to be an adult, like us, until His resurrection. During his time as a man, He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God.  He is now at the right hand of God as the exalted begotten God with power, the Son of the Most High God, in the position as head of the church with the Most High God as His head. I hope you can understand this.  If you have any questions, let me know. God bless you, 94

Hi Lightenup:

I have said if I am wrong in everything that I do when I am corrected by God then I will be right, and so, I don't mind being corrected.

The scripture does tell us to study to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth.

But the simplicity of the Word of God is that there is a God and that He gave His Only Begotten Son Jesus as the propitiation for our sins that whosoever chooses to be reconciled to Him may do so by Faith in this Word and with a repentant heart.  As Christians, we then become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come to us from God through him in our daily lives.  Jesus said that he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.  Why the simplicity of this is so difficult for people, is hard for me to understand.  It is that simple.

I believe that you are making some assumptions that are just that “assumptions”, but I will try to answer what you have posted as your understanding perhaps next week-end after I have done a little praying for guidance from God my Father.

I want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.

God is Love.  God Bless you.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2008,06:32)

Hi GM, So Paul lied when he said there are many gods and that Satan was the god of this world?

Hi Nick,
Do you mean to say Jesus is also God in that way a socalled god? What is new in this understanding even a JW believes that. Please don't make Jesus some how God then we are deviating from knowing the only True God the Father and One Lord Jesus the Christ (the anointed).
Peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Only those committed to defending human doctrines muddy the water about gods.
It should be enough for us to say there is one true God, the Father.

[gollamudi]

Thanks for that brother
Adam

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 03 2008,12:17)

dk…… out of all you list show me one that (says)..Jesus preexisted as a ( being) before he was born on earth. And I don't mean inferences but absolute says it. We have went over these scriptures 100's of times it Just is not there. every thing you gave can be taken as a (foreordained Plan) as Peter said He was. IMO……………gene

Here is one..

Revelation 22:16 (niv)- 16″I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

What do you suppose “the root of david” means here?

Gen 1:26 (niv)-“let us make man in our image”

In a non trinatarian view..explain this…is this god speaking in some kingly “3rd” person or “plural” form as some study bibles suggest?…I say prove it thru scripture where God uses this type of speech elsewhere in scripture.

Micah 5:2 (niv)- 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times. [c]

Ancient times? From of old?…Yes jesus here obviously pre existed

John 1:18 (niv)-18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Remember Jesus had not been baptized and anointed by god spirits..niether had the “heavens been opened up to him” as the were at his baptism…So how then could he have seen God? Pre existence thats how

Proverbs 8-wisdom personified

I mean really..the bible says 'no one has ascended except he who descended”….

He was First born of all creation

He was Gods Master worker

He said Before abraham i am

He emptied himself and took a lower form

The scriptures are quite clear (to me) on the issue of pre existence…

There are over 100 prophesies in the bible relating to the comming messiah…the early church and the first century congregation knew, believed, and taught that Jesus pre existed his earthly birth. They knew as do as that John the Baptist spoke of Jesus Christ as being before him. There is another alteration to the ancient texts in the Greek Receptus or Received Text of the Reformation, and hence the KJV, as we see from this next section.

John 1:15-18 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

John clearly says Christ was before him. Yet John we know was six months older than Christ and it was physically impossible for Christ to have been before him. Thus, John speaks of a pre-existence. This pre-existence was as a god, an elohim, or theoi, as we know from the ancient texts and was altered in the Receptus. The Concordant Literal renders the texts as:

John is testifying concerning Him and has cried, saying, “This was He of Whom I said, ‘He Who is coming after me, has come to be in front of me,’ for He was first before me.” for of that which fills him we all obtained, and grace for grace. For the law through Moses was given; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him.

The text here shows the structure of the text regarding John saying Christ was before him. The text in John 1:18 is actually monogenes theos meaning only born God and this is demonstrated from Marshall’s Greek English Interlinear. (It is also seen from the Aramaic of the Peshitta). Dr Hort has written a learned treatise on the occurrence of this term monogenes theos . There is ample evidence that the term is correct. It is simply ignored by mainstream Christianity and the Binitarians who seek to deny the implications of the text.

Hebrews 1:1 in the KJV makes note of the creation of the world by Christ also.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (KJV, emphasis added)

In like fashion, this text has also been mistranslated because the word is aion and means age not the worlds as the English of the KJV tries to imply . Christ was made a little lower than the angels, but it was not always so. Hebrews 2:17 shows he was made like his brethren so that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest.

However, John 3:17 shows he was sent into the world by the Father thus demonstrating pre-existence.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (KJV)

The notion here of sent needs to be examined in the Greek. The word is SGD 649 apostello meaning to set apart or send out on a mission. The concept of dispatch is also involved and is the sense in the Concordant Literal New Testament. The word SGD 3992 pempo is also involved in the texts meaning to dispatch. The concept from the usage and forms conveys the concept to dispatch by orderly motion on a temporary errand.

This is the concept conveyed in the forms used concerning the actions of God in the human field.

Paul clearly states that Christ was in the wilderness with Israel in the Exodus.

1Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (KJV)

To suggest that Christ was there only as a notion in the mind of God, whom no one saw anyway, trivialises the use of language and metaphor in the Bible.

Notice this interesting piece of history:The Creed [381] of Ulfilas, Bishop of the Goths, 341-81

“I, Ulfilas, bishop and confessor, have always thus believed, and in this one and true faith I make my testament before my Lord: I believe there is one God, the Father, alone unbegotten and invisible, and I believe in His Only begotten Son, our Lord and God, Creator and Maker of the whole creation, not having any like unto Him-therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of our God-and in one Holy Spirit, an enlightening and sanctifying power-(as Christ says for warning to His Apostles: “Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but do ye dwell in the city of Jerusalem until ye be clothed with power from on high.” And again; “And ye shall receive power coming upon you by the Holy Spirit”)-neither [King, but] subjected and obedient in all things to [His] God and Father…through Christ …in the Holy Spirit.- C.A.A. Scott, Ulfilas, 109″

To deny the pre-existence of Christ is to seek to deny the capacity of the host to be brought down to the pit and to be resurrected. It seeks to place Christ on a separate level and effectively deny the position of humans to become co-heirs with Christ, and for God to become all in all.

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