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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2008,18:38) Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,07:47) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59) To all,
I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc. He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes? So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.) When the scriptures say:
1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUIn this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future. I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo. Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah.
It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.) and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc. He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off.
Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas.
Dear Gene,
Here is a post I made a week and a half ago referring to how God could say that He alone created things.Blessings!
LUQuote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59)
To all,
I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc. He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.Hi LU
I do not agree with your analogy because, there is not a neighborhood of “all things” or a neighborhood of “Universes” where there were other gods (contractors) that built universes in other neighborhoods. The Universe is exclusively God's. Creator and created.
I was in construction for many years and never once heard a builder say “By Myself” or “I Alone” built these houses.
He may say “I built a house or houses”. The owner of a house may say “I built this house”, when he did nothing except front the Money. But he would never say “I built this house alone”!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 44:24
Most of our English translations read Isa 44:24 like the KJV
The LXX reads…
Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.
The last I looked “Alone” means “Alone”.
Something else to consider is YHYW claims to be alone and by himself as God.
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:5, 6
Again, most of the English translations agree with the KJV including the LXX…
5 For I am the Lord God, and there is no other God beside me; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that there is no God but me. I am the Lord God, and there is none beside. LXX
Here is another…
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isa 45:21
If they will declare, let them draw nigh, that they may know together, who has caused these things to be heard from the beginning: then was it told you. I am God, and there is not another beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none but me. LXX
These scriptures are not the opinions of Isaiah but in fact is YHWH himself speaking.
How does these scriptures allow for a “begotten god” beside YHWY as a lesser god through whom YHWH created all things?
Blessings!
Hi WJ,
I presented my analogy as a kind of brainstorming with you all. None of us know how creation all came about actually. We just take some scriptures and try to let the Holy Spirit give us some understanding. Many of my opinions of what happened in creation are just opinions like everyone else except I was supernaturally clued into the light of the first day to be associated with the firstborn of all creation-the Son of God. If the Son is actually the first one born of all creation and He is God's only begotten son and He was the “light” of day one then Gen 1:1 when God made the heaven and the earth, He (the Most High God) was apparently truly alone, after that there was the Light with Him to fill up the h
eaven and the earth.If the Father is the Most High God, and He is the ONLY Most High God then He is alone in being the Most High God to do anything. Maybe His point of saying that He did it alone was to teach that there is no one who is even remotely equal to Him that was there or that was with Him.
Why don't you bring the family over and we'll watch a DVD of God creating the world. I'll provide the popcorn
Don't you wish it were that simple!!!Blessings, LU
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,18:52) Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,01:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,00:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born?
Hi Kathi,Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child?
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Do you think that He couldn't do that? Does it mention a Goddess who was God's partner? Does God need a mate, isn't He complete? If one accepts that God had a natural child that He created the world through and does not see any claims of another Goddess with God, then what else could it be? He is aware of asexual reproduction you know-He designed it for some of His creation.I can show you that He has a firstborn of all creation by whom He created all things in heaven and on earth. But you are aware of that scripture. Colossians chapter 1.
God bless,
Kathi
I asked if you could show me in the OT where God has said what you believe concerning his Son.
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,This, I believe is the best OT passage that I have found.
Proverbs 8:22-31 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Love, K
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,12:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,18:52) Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,01:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,00:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born?
Hi Kathi,Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child?
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Do you think that He couldn't do that? Does it mention a Goddess who was God's partner? Does God need a mate, isn't He complete? If one accepts that God had a natural child that He created the world through and does not see any claims of another Goddess with God, then what else could it be? He is aware of asexual reproduction you know-He designed it for some of His creation.I can show you that He has a firstborn of all creation by whom He created all things in heaven and on earth. But you are aware of that scripture. Colossians chapter 1.
God bless,
Kathi
I asked if you could show me in the OT where God has said what you believe concerning his Son.
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,This, I believe is the best OT passage that I have found.
Proverbs 8:22-31 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Love, K
Hi LU:I believe that God is speaking about Wisdom. Here is the whole verse in context:
Quote Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Pro 8:2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
Pro 8:3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
Pro 8:4 “To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
Pro 8:5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
Pro 8:6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
Pro 8:7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
Pro 8:9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
Pro 8:11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
Pro 8:12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
Pro 8:13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Pro 8:14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
Pro 8:16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.[fn1]
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
Pro 8:18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
Pro 8:21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[fn2],[fn3]
before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed[fn4] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
Pro 8:32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
Pro 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
Pro 8:36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”
When I read what Lightenup was saying about Jesus in Proverb 8:22-30 I knew somebody would come and say that it is speaking of Wisdom. I have heard that before. I have to ask myself tho, what is Wisdom? Is that a person? God who is all wise and knowing gave bvirth to Wisdom? Wow I always thought that it was something that a person is. Why would God have to create wisdom in the first place, when He Himself is all wise and all knowing. Seems somewhat ridiculous to say Wisdom is a being or a Spirit.
Peace and Love Mrs.Nice post Seek,
You are in right track as far as this concerned.
Please read my earlier post. It should provoke your thinking. I am not any trinitarian or oneness believer as you have wrongly quoted in your earlier post. Please don't get confused with certain verses only like Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Jn 1:1 etc. See the whole bible you will understand the concept of God in totallity not in fragments as many in this forum are doing and loosing the arguement. My words may be strong but there is truth in them. Misinterpretation of certain verses causes confusion in understanding God in full. You make Jesus' pre-existence to create a super being or angel or assexual son of God or even begotten God by some. What a utter failure in understanding simple characteristics of God which even a trinitarian like WJ will laugh at it.
Again my humble request to all of you read the bible with open mind not with preconceived ideas. I appreciate Gene, Mandy, Tim,94, adampastor etc. who are having broad mind to ponder into God's nature and understanding Jesus.
Peace to you all
AdamQuote (seek and you will find @ May 31 2008,13:17) When I read what Lightenup was saying about Jesus in Proverb 8:22-30 I knew somebody would come and say that it is speaking of Wisdom. I have heard that before. I have to ask myself tho, what is Wisdom? Is that a person? God who is all wise and knowing gave bvirth to Wisdom? Wow I always thought that it was something that a person is. Why would God have to create wisdom in the first place, when He Himself is all wise and all knowing. Seems somewhat ridiculous to say Wisdom is a being or a Spirit.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs:This is what God says:
Quote Pro 8:32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
Come on 942767,
Why do you question the explanation given by Seek, she in the right tack as far as prov 8 concerned. You have to understand that God is not the speaker here, it is the personified wisdom (a female) who is speaking in this passage.
Take care
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ May 31 2008,13:51) Come on 942767,
Why do you question the explanation given by Seek, she in the right tack as far as prov 8 concerned. You have to understand that God is not the speaker here, it is the personified wisdom (a female) who is speaking in this passage.
Take care
Adam
Hi Bro:Surely it is wisdom speaking here. However, one has to read from the beginning of the Proverbs to understand what is being said:
Quote Pro 1:1 ¶ The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise [man] will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.Quote Pro 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding;
Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightlyQuote Pro 5:1 ¶ My son, attend unto my wisdom, [and] bow thine ear to my understanding: Quote Pro 7:1 ¶ My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
Pro 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
Pro 7:3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.
Pro 7:4 Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:God Bless
Hi,
Wisdom is one of the graces of the character of Jesus.
He is more than wisdom.Wisdom imbues the creation of God.
Hi Kathi,
After reading everyone's response to your post regarding an OT response, I'd have to say I agree with the lot of them. I think it's a stretch.
In order to have such a solid belief in preexistence as you do, and other's, I would think you could come out of the OT with more than this vague (and hotly debated) passage.
Anything more clear? There seems to be a lot riding on this belief. I would want more evidence if I were you. But I'll take another cup of coffee, if you have time?
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,07:47) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59) To all,
I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc. He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes? So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.) When the scriptures say:
1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUIn this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future. I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo. Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah.
It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.) and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc. He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off.
Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas.
Dear Gene,
Here is a post I made a week and a half ago referring to how God could say that He alone created things.Blessings!
LU
Kathi,I like your story.
However God tells us that he used his OWN HAND to lay the foundations. I don't believe we could mistake this for a crew of hands, could we?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,11:02) If angels are different created beings than humans, which I believe they are, then if they are sons of God then that would mean that God has more than one type of son.
Very good point!I also wonder if satan was written out of the will? He started out being a “son” – right?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,18:38) Hi not3,
Has God got hands?
I guess so. It says as much in the OT.Isaiah 48:13 (among others)
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth…..
Yes hands, Nick,
Many times in O.T. 'hands' of God was mentioned. Why are you so surprised by that?
See 'hands of God' meant sometimes it was about angels and at times it was about His son, Jesus like you see in Isaiah 53.
AdamJesus said “before Abraham, I am”.
That is what he said.
It also offended some of the Jews who asked “Are you older than Abraham”?
Jesus slipped away at that time probably because they wanted to kill him.
Could it be that a spirit enraged those who heard him say this?
Could it be that same spirit that makes people either believe that Jesus is God or just a man. Either one is fine, just not the firstborn of all creation who has first place in all things.I have noticed that many people have a problem with Jesus saying that “before Abraham, I am”. It really provokes a response. It makes you wonder why sometimes.
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D) wrote the following:
For what says “The man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself” for the life and salvation of the world. Whosoever, therefore, declares that there is but one God, only so as to take away the divinity of Christ, is a devil, and an enemy of all righteousness. He also that confesseth Christ, yet not as the Son of the Maker of the world, but of some other unknown being, different from Him whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil. And he that rejects the incarnation, and is ashamed of the cross for which I am in bonds, this man is antichrist. Moreover, he who affirms Christ to be a mere man is accursed, according to the prophet, since he puts not his trust in God, but in man. (To the Antiochians, IV-V).
What do others think? If saying that Jesus is a man only, then is such a person putting their trust in man and therefore accursed?
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