Preexistence

[TimothyVI]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 30 2008,21:15)

So what else can you come up with to maybe convince He of that very important doctrine of Jesus being with the Father before all creation. After all firstborn means first in all and preeminence also means first in all. So what is the problem that some don't see what some do? Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs.
Why is that a very important doctrine.
Must a person believe that Jesus preexisted in
order to be given salvation?

Tim

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,00:48)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Do you think that He couldn't do that? Does it mention a Goddess who was God's partner? Does God need a mate, isn't He complete? If one accepts that God had a natural child that He created the world through and does not see any claims of another Goddess with God, then what else could it be? He is aware of asexual reproduction you know-He designed it for some of His creation.

I can show you that He has a firstborn of all creation by whom He created all things in heaven and on earth. But you are aware of that scripture. Colossians chapter 1.

God bless,
Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

lightenup …….but you have a conflict in scripture then, because God said He created the earth and all thats in it by (himself) in fact he used the word (MYSELF) which means no one was with him. How do you resolve that. Do you simply ignore those scriptures.

The (sum) of Gods word is truth, and why has no one who pushes preexistence shown any reason for God doing things that way, what sense would that make to take a preexisting perfect son and kill him and then kill him again. Pure nonsense.

IMO…………..gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 30 2008,11:23)

Nick……….Jesus was first in Place or rank. John went on the say because He is  preferred before me , showing John was Only talking about Rank not berth order. He even went on to say He wasn't worthy to lace His sandals. So it obvious he is talking about rank and position not age. If he was talking about age he wouldn't have said all the rest of what he was saying. He was showing position and authority, that all. Don't any of you realize that if Jesus was a preexisting Being before he came to earth, that He would have made that very clear and all the Apostles would have also. Can't you see it would not have benefited any of us for Him to have preexisted. But it greatly benefits us if he came into existence at the time of his berth from Mary. Why would it greatly benefit us?, Because we then have an exact copy of Us in every way and we can see what God the Father did through Him and it would far greater encourage us then if He preexisted as some kind of perfect super being. God did not take a preexisting perfect super creator being and kill him and reincarnate Him and affect and kill him again. Total nonsense. Can someone give me a reason God the Father would do that? What purpose would that serve. Pure trinitarian garbage. Nick start using you head quit forcing the text. peace to you …………..gene

Hi brother Gene, excellent post, I agree with that all.
No preexistence believer like Nick,Seek,T8,LightenUp etc will appreciate your reasoning. I am really thrilled by your repeated arguements with Nick to convince him. He can not understand the Spirit behind them.
Hi all understand Gene's in depth analysis about pre-existence myth. Why you people don't understand simple truths of God? Everybody wants to prove Jesus pre-existence to make him another supre being (celestial or angel) even begooten God. You are all under veil of trinitarianism you don't want to give up your strong orientation towards that mythology. You know in India our Hinduism says god Vishnu has taken Dasavatara (Ten incarnations) to save the good by killing wicked. For such belief in incarnation by god is common for us. Even I am able to give up my Hindu beliefs for accepting true nature of God and Jesus why not all of you? What so difficult for you. Hey Nick come out from that wrong concept of believing pre-existence of Jesus as Gene was repeatedly asking you.
Why all of you are blindly beating the same bush?
Sorry about my strong words. My heart is paining in agony seeing your blind beliefs.
Peace to you all
Adam

[seek and you will find]

Hmmmm Adam You know whatever you just wrote I could say to you also. You and others that belief in the trinity etc. don't understand that God is just a title. The Son of God is not greater then His Father and our Father in Heaven, He and we have said that too. But we and I can not ignore what Colosians and Rev. 3:14 say about what Jesus was before He came to earth as a Man. He had a glory with the Father before the world was. Reading in John 1:1 makes me aware again that before Jesus became man and was called Jesus, He was with the Father. Lets look at this verse.
John In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God(Father) Now listen what the next verse says
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made.
Then if you read in
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God(Father) the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION.

verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and are in the earth…….
All things were created through Him and for Him.

Now look at verse 18

And He is the head of the Body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.  

Preeminence means first in all. When you read this and really want to see the truth, there is no other way to see it, but that Jesus, who was the Word was with God the Father before all things were created. One more scripture in

Rev. 3:14 These says the Amen, the Faithful Witness the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD(FATHER)

Now tell me how else can you see this, if you do you are missing out on the truth. This is the way I see it.

And the Word became flesh and was born of Mary and is called Jesus.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mrs…….please answer this question, How could God the Father say He (ALONE) and BY (MYSELF) created everything then if Jesus did it.

Looks like we have a contradiction of scripture then right, please explain it to us.

I can see how Jesus was the first of the Human creation to become a son of God, and\ God raised Him from the grave and is sitting in the Kingdom of God with the Father, and how He is the first, of (MANY) brethren.

That makes sound sense to me and is not contrary to scripture.

peace to you……………gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59)

To all, I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc.  He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes?  So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.)  When the scriptures say: 1 Cor 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU In this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future.  I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo.  Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God.  The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah. It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.)  and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc.  He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off. Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas.

Dear Gene,
Here is a post I made a week and a half ago referring to how God could say that He alone created things.

Blessings!
LU

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,07:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59) To all, I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc.  He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes?  So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.)  When the scriptures say: 1 Cor 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU In this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future.  I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo.  Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God.  The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah. It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.)  and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc.  He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off. Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas. Dear Gene, Here is a post I made a week and a half ago referring to how God could say that He alone created things. Blessings! LU

Gen I agree with this. Just look up what preeminence means.
The problem is that, what I believe, you have made up your mind and it is closed to any other beliefs. Even if it is true. I know how hard it is to say, yes you are right and I was wrong, but that is exactly what I had to do, because I thought the Guy from the J.W. was crazy. But thanks to God He did not leave me in that unbelieve. Hopefully you too will see in the near future.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 30 2008,10:34)

lightenup …….but you have a conflict in scripture then, because God said He created the earth and all thats in it by (himself) in fact he used the word (MYSELF) which means no one was with him. How do you resolve that. Do you simply ignore those scriptures. The (sum) of Gods word is truth, and why has no one who pushes preexistence shown any reason for God doing things that way, what sense would that make to take a preexisting perfect son and kill him and then kill him again. Pure nonsense. IMO…………..gene

I would agree Gene, what sense would that make to take a pre-existing perfect son and kill him and then kill him again.

I do not know where you were told that and I have been reading posts for a while.

Wondering…LU

[942767]

Hi WJ:

Just an answer to the below statement of your post will answer it all:

You say:

Quote

In each one of the above scriptures Yeshua could have said “My Fathers word”, but in fact Jesus takes claim to the scriptures…

You have already indicated that Jesus does not speak of his own initiative.  

Quote

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

This scripture states that God has spoken to humanity through him.  

Jesus also said in addition to the scriptures that you have quoted about the word being his own:

Quote

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.   Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love

So then, although the commandments have come from God through him, they are also his in that he taught them and obeyed them without sin even unto death on the cross.

God Bless

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2008,17:12)

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2008,16:29) Hi Nick: I know of Only one God and One only begotten Son of God and many sons of God who are begotten of God by the spirit of adoption, but no, I am sorry, I don't know any begotten God.  If you want to believe that that is your prerogative.  Go right ahead. Hi 94, Then you must show us how the scripture in Jn 1.18 is wrong by other means than opinion.

Hi Nick:

First of all, there are two different translations, one saying “begotten God” and the other saying “the only begotten Son of God”, and so, unless both of them are correct one of them has to be wrong.

I said that I knew which one I believe is the truth and that is the one which states the “only begotten Son of God” because of the following scrptures:

Quote

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.   Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].   Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.   Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.   Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:   Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?   Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.   Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],   1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

And I don't believe the scripture which is translated “begotten God” because:

Quote

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?   Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:   Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.   1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.   Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.   1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

It must be line upon line and precept upon precept.  I don't see any other reference to a “begotten God”.

[942767]

Hi Nick:

I thought I would also post this from the NASB that states “begotten God”.  Aside from this scripture there is not other reference to a “begotten God”.

Quote

Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.}   Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.   Jhn 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.   Act 13:33 that God has fulfilled this {promise} to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'   1Jo 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him

The scripture also states: “in the bosom of the Father”. Is that the heart of the Father?  I know that he existed there in the beginning.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,07:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59) To all, I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc.  He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes?  So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.)  When the scriptures say: 1 Cor 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU In this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future.  I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo.  Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God.  The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah. It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.)  and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc.  He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off. Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas. Dear Gene, Here is a post I made a week and a half ago referring to how God could say that He alone created things. Blessings! LU

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,14:59)

To all, I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.  Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc.  He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood.

Hi LU  

I do not agree with your analogy because, there is not a neighborhood of “all things” or a neighborhood of “Universes” where there were other gods (contractors) that built universes in other neighborhoods. The Universe is exclusively God's. Creator and created.

I was in construction for many years and never once heard a builder say “By Myself” or “I Alone” built these houses.

He may say “I built a house or houses”. The owner of a house may say “I built this house”, when he did nothing except front the Money. But he would never say “I built this house alone”!

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 44:24

Most of our English translations read Isa 44:24 like the KJV

The LXX reads…

Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.    

The last I looked “Alone” means “Alone”.

Something else to consider is YHYW claims to be alone and by himself as God.

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:5, 6      

Again, most of the English translations agree with the KJV including the LXX…

5 For I am the Lord God, and there is no other God beside me; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that there is no God but me. I am the Lord God, and there is none beside.  LXX

Here is another…

Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?  have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isa 45:21

If they will declare, let them draw nigh, that they may know together, who has caused these things to be heard from the beginning: then was it told you. I am God, and there is not another beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none but me. LXX

These scriptures are not the opinions of Isaiah but in fact is YHWH himself speaking.

How does these scriptures allow for a “begotten god” beside YHWY as a lesser god through whom YHWH created all things?

Blessings!  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,09:06)

Hi WJ: Just an answer to the below statement of your post will answer it all: You say: Quote In each one of the above scriptures Yeshua could have said “My Fathers word”, but in fact Jesus takes claim to the scriptures… You have already indicated that Jesus does not speak of his own initiative.   Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds This scripture states that God has spoken to humanity through him.   Jesus also said in addition to the scriptures that you have quoted about the word being his own: Quote Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.   Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love So then, although the commandments have come from God through him, they are also his in that he taught them and obeyed them without sin even unto death on the cross. God Bless

Hi 94

IMO, Not good enough.

If God gives you his commandments and you keep them and teach others to do so, can you say…

“These are my commandments, if you continue in my words then are you my disciples indeed?”

Can any man take claim to the words Yeshua speaks as his own words?

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:50)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,16:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy God is the Father of all spirits. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that he is also the Father of the Angels, as they are all ministering spirits. He has Fathered many. But he has a begotten son too. God created sex for male and female to reproduce. God doesn't need to reduce himself to a creature if he wants to have a son. He can do what he wants even outside of his own processes. He is beyond creation itself and not subject to it.

Thanks, t8.

This sounds OK. It makes sense…… It's not what I've been thinking all along, but I'm trying to take my preconceived (no pun intended) notions and try on some new ones. I'm trying to look at things a bit differently to see if anything will click.

Perhaps a light will go on?
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 30 2008,21:15)

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,16:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy God is the Father of all spirits. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that he is also the Father of the Angels, as they are all ministering spirits. He has Fathered many. But he has a begotten son too. God created sex for male and female to reproduce. God doesn't need to reduce himself to a creature if he wants to have a son. He can do what he wants even outside of his own processes. He is beyond creation itself and not subject to it. t8 I know what you are saying is true, but you do not give Mandy any prove as how Jesus preexisted before the world was. I given all the scriptures, but still it makes no sense to Her. So what else can you come up with to maybe convince He of that very important doctrine of Jesus being with the Father before all creation. After all firstborn means first in all and preeminence also means first in all. So what is the problem that some don't see what some do? Peace and Love Mrs.

Sis,

I appreciate your eagerness to have me believe this truth that you hold. But God does the convincing. So don't worry, he will show me. Sometimes I can be stubborn (he knows this) but lately I've had a softening of the spirit and I feel the tug on my heart to listen…….so I am. He'll show me. He is the one who calls, and ultimately if I am seeking him with all my heart (as I am doing), he will give me what I lack.

Meanwhile, I sure could use some extra prayers!
Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2008,01:53)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,00:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy Hi Mandy, Do you think that He couldn't do that?  Does it mention a Goddess who was God's partner?  Does God need a mate, isn't He complete?  If one accepts that God had a natural child that He created the world through and does not see any claims of another Goddess with God, then what else could it be?  He is aware of asexual reproduction you know-He designed it for some of His creation. I can show you that He has a firstborn of all creation by whom He created all things in heaven and on earth.  But you are aware of that scripture. Colossians chapter 1. God bless, Kathi

I asked if you could show me in the OT where God has said what you believe concerning his Son.
Thanks,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,10:46)

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,16:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy God is the Father of all spirits. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that he is also the Father of the Angels, as they are all ministering spirits. He has Fathered many. But he has a begotten son too. God created sex for male and female to reproduce. God doesn't need to reduce himself to a creature if he wants to have a son. He can do what he wants even outside of his own processes. He is beyond creation itself and not subject to it. Thanks, t8. This sounds OK.  It makes sense……  It's not what I've been thinking all along, but I'm trying to take my preconceived (no pun intended) notions and try on some new ones.  I'm trying to look at things a bit differently to see if anything will click. Perhaps a light will go on? Mandy

not3

Hi

I do not think the writer of Hebrews meant for the term “Father of Spirits” to mean a blanket statement of “All Spirits”.

Satan is a spirit, but is he a Son of the Father of Spirits?

Jesus said…

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Jn 8:41-44

I do not know of any scripture where angels refer to God as their Father, do you?

If angels are different created beings than humans, which I believe they are, then if they are sons of God then that would mean that God has more than one type of son.

Blessings

[Not3in1]

OK, Keith. I'm gonna have to come back tonight and delve into your post because it raises some questions for me. Right now I have to get the BBQ going.

Thanks for this post, chat soon,
Mandy

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,10:45)

Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,09:06) Hi WJ: Just an answer to the below statement of your post will answer it all: You say: Quote In each one of the above scriptures Yeshua could have said “My Fathers word”, but in fact Jesus takes claim to the scriptures… You have already indicated that Jesus does not speak of his own initiative.   Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds This scripture states that God has spoken to humanity through him.   Jesus also said in addition to the scriptures that you have quoted about the word being his own: Quote Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.   Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love So then, although the commandments have come from God through him, they are also his in that he taught them and obeyed them without sin even unto death on the cross. God Bless Hi 94 IMO, Not good enough. If God gives you his commandments and you keep them and teach others to do so, can you say… “These are my commandments, if you continue in my words then are you my disciples indeed?” Can any man take claim to the words Yeshua speaks as his own words?

Hi WJ:

I believe one can say this if one, as Jesus did on many occasions, makes it clear that the commandments that he is  teaching are coming from God.  

He did not teach his own thoughts.  

Failure to understand this is why IMHO that you teach the “tinity” doctrine to avoid teaching polytheism.

There is only “One God” and we the church beginning with the head are subjected to God through His Word.

Well this thread is about pre-existence, and I got off the subject.

God Bless

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