Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

lightingup…..if you go to a trinitarian Greek translation what do you think you conclusions will be, Their translators were under the persuasions of that ideology. But the further back critical text scholars are going the more there finding that the texts have be altered and words added to the texts to push the trinitarian ideologies. I have two different Greek translations one leans toward the trinitarian view and one does not. They are different translations in several areas.

We have to remember it's the (SUM) of Gods word is truth. Not just some small area in the scriptures. We have to put it all together, and if there is a contradiction we need to be careful not to ignore it, and assume something
that is contrary to those contradictions.

peace to you…………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gb,
ReinCARNation is not relevant.
Jesus is not said to have a carnal body before one was prepared for him.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………..He said he was (Preferred) before Him, he was talking about RANK. Not a Berth at all. That has been throughly explained to you by me and others, why can't you get it. Even trinitarian Scholars don't us that for their proof's.
Because they know it talking about Rank not Berth.

If you are basing the for you belief on Jesus preexistence you have a very weak case.

IMO…………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Why do you need to ADD the word PREFERRED to scripture?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,13:14)

Hi GB, Why do you need to ADD the word PREFERRED to scripture?

Nick……….My NKJV…has it as preferred before me, but the margin says ranked. My Greek uses Ranked before me in both places.
as i told you even scholars don't use that text as a proof text of Jesus preexistence. So how much more proof you need.

Is truth really important to you or just holding on to you preconceived ideas. It becomes pointless to debate with you sometimes. You wont acknowledge anything no matter how much proof is produced.

Sorry brother but sometimes you have to admit things……..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Do scholars and scribes always find the truth?

AFTER it says PREFERRED in Jn 1.30 it says

WAS

Jn1
En
Number 2258
Transliteration:
en {ane}
Word Origin:
imperfect of 1510
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
was 266, were 115, had been 12, had 11, taught 1321 4, stood 2476 4, misc 41, vr was 1

Total: 454
Definition:
I was, etc.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,13:12)

Hi Gb, ReinCARNation is not relevant. Jesus is not said to have a carnal body before one was prepared for him.

Nick….> sorry i meant to say (incarnation) not reincarnated because if it was reincarnated that would mean he was carnal (flesh)before he was born by Mary. As a Fleshly or carnal being.

Jesus is not said to have (any) body of any kind before He was born By Mary. Because he did not exist. Except in the plan and fore knowledge of GOD< The Father.

IMO……………Gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So you say.
I disagree believing rather the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2008,19:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,05:18) Quote (ptr775 @ May 29 2008,02:06) I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist… Protos 1) first in time or place  a) in any succession of things or persons 2) first in rank   a) influence, honour   b) chief   c) principal 3) first, at the first Dear Oneness people: I am going to prove to you that this passage is not about a predestined plan as you say in verse John 1:18 and that the Son of God is called the Begotten God. Here is the passage in question, John 1:14-18.  I have included the Greek below two of the verses. 14. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' ” Iwannhv marturei (5719) peri autou kai kekragen (5754) legwn, (5723) Outov hn (5713) on eipon, (5627) O opisw mou erxomenov (5740) emprosqen mou gegonen, (5754) oti prwtov mou hn. (5713) 16. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato. Here goes: Now, referring to v. 15 and the words “He existed” The Greek word “hn” (Strong's#2258) is an imperfect form (or a past tense form) of the root word “eimi” (Strong's # 1510-to be, to exist, to happen, to be present) To be in conjugated as : is, am are, was, were, be, being, been.  As in the word “to exist” it would be: exist, existed, will exist.  In this verse “existed” is used because of how it is written in the Greek.  Now, because of how it is written and the context, we know that: This Greek word “hn” (He existed) acts as a verb in this sentence. Is written in the 3rd Person-that is why it says “He” and not me or you Is in the IMPERFECT TENSE which means PAST tense which is why it says existed and not exists. Is in the ACTIVE voice meaning the SUBJECT IS DOING THE ACTION and not written in the passive voice which would mean that the action is being done to the subject.  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  IF HE EXISTED AS A PLAN THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A “PASSIVE VOICE.”  You see, a plan cannot do its own existing, it has to be put into existence by someone.  A plan exists or existed in a passive way. It is in the Indicative mood. The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. And is Singular and relates to the singular subject-the Son of God.   Context is very important when trying to understand this verse.  The context tells us that John is speaking about Jesus as the “Begotten God” in verse 18 and again the “Only Begotten from the Father” in verse 14. Notice the Greek in verse 18 “monogenhv qeov” this means only begotten God not merely only begotten as in a heavenly son or human son.  qeov transliterated is theos which means god or God. So, to sum up… John is talking about the Son of God who actively, not passively as a mere plan, but actively existed before him (John the Baptist, who was actually conceived before Jesus).  Yes, the Son of God actually existed in an active way before His conception in Mary.  He existed as the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD and still is the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD. You can view this info at: http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk This is alot of info but it is important to settle this and to settle alot of the debating on this thread. God bless, LU LU Excellent post. We are very close in our beliefs. However when I have some real time I would like to go in depth with you concerning your bold post (I mean that in a positive way) in acknowledging Yeshua is God. I still have some questions for you? Blessings to you and keep up the good fight. You are an asset here.

Hi WJ,
Thank you for your great encouragement. I look forward to going more in-depth with you when you find the extra time.

I am short on time for a few days since I am planning, decorating and doing all the cooking for a graduation bbq on Sunday. I wish all at Heaven Net could come by for some pork bbq, swimming in the lake and volleyball on the coolest race horse farm around. Wouldn't that be fun…everyone could bring their families…yes that would be nice.

Till then,
God bless,
LU

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,14:14)

Hi GB, So you say. I disagree believing rather the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

Nick………No Jesus was one of a kind in berth, who was born like that?, no one, so indeed He is uniquely born, that not the point, your saying He preexisted as a being before he was born by Mary.

I am saying He existed only in the Plan and fore Knowledge of God, Like Jeremiah and Cyrus, and King David. And even we were foreordained before the foundation of the world also. But all of us came into existence as a being when we were born even though we were in the mind of God from the beginning.

peace to you……………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So monogenes relates to conception?
His conception was not different-scripture uses the same greek words used for the conception of John.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,14:38)

Hi GB, So monogenes relates to conception? His conception was not different-scripture uses the same greek words used for the conception of John.

Ncik any berth where God is involved is nonogenes so whats your point. Remember John berth was also unique if you remember scripture. My son was the same way I tried for years to have a son and finally I prayed and ask God for a son and even Ask the he would have a good heart, that very month My wife became pregnet and we had a Son and to this day He is known for His good and loving Heart. I call that unique and also nonogenes.

IMO…..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Would you define the greek word according to your opinion?
hmmm

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2008,16:32)

Kathi, It makes sense to me that if Jesus is God's Son through the conception with Mary, that he would be considered “God”.  He is from his Father, and his Father is God.   Growing up in the Assembly of God church, I heard many refer to Jesus as the “God-man”.  Of course this was their way of inferring that Jesus was both puny man and God Almighty at the very same time.  Keeping that straight perserved the trinity dogma. However you are not saying that Jesus is another “God” to be worshipped in his own God-right, you are merely stating that God refers to his son as “God” – meaning that Jesus is his boy.  Correct?  I realize you say it better, but I'm just trying to clarify. Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,

You are coming along but not quite getting what I am saying yet. Very soon, I hope:)

Can we pretend we are sitting at Starbuck's with our cappucinos and we are having a nice conversation-no kids, just the two of us? If that's okay with you, I will carry-on our conversation with you in mind:

I ask:

Mandy, would the Most High God need to have existed before anything else to have a title like “Most High God”?

If your answer is yes, then my next question:

If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born?

If your answer is yes, then Mandy, here is my next question:

Could God begat another of His kind?

If the answer is yes, then my next question:

So, God could begat another God?

If your answer is yes, and Mandy, I think so too!

Would that only begotten son also then be an only begotten God?

If you say yes then…

Could that only begotten God ever be the Most High God or equal to the Most High God?

If you say no, then Mandy you are doing well and following along quite nicely.

Is that a no because He did not exist before anything else and existing before anything else happens to be a requirement for one to hold the title of the Most High God?

This is where you would say yes.

Okay then so far so good…We then get interrupted by our kids calling on the cell phone and we have to hurriedly rush home but wishing we could continue soon. We agree to another cappacino in the near future.

Well, ok, I know that you would have ALOT more to say than yes or no (considering your 4000 and some posts) but I wanted to stay on topic:)

So, how did you like our conversation, Mandy?? LOL

I hope this gives you an idea of what I am thinking in a light hearted sort of way. More Starbuck's later if you can make it because I truly have to go for now.

I realize that I may have answered for you incorrectly. Let me know.

I thoroughly enjoyed our time together!!

God bless and God's love,
Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,14:01)

Hi GB, Do scholars and scribes always find the truth? AFTER it says PREFERRED in Jn 1.30 it says WAS Jn1 En Number 2258 Transliteration: en {ane} Word Origin: imperfect of 1510 Part of Speech: verb Usage in the KJV: was 266, were 115, had been 12, had 11, taught 1321 4, stood 2476 4, misc 41, vr was 1 Total: 454 Definition: I was, etc.

Nick……..your asking me that question, i know more then most people on this site they don't always have it right. But you don't either Nick.

AS i told you even Scholars don't use what your trying to us to prove preexistence. Because it obliviously won't support you theory.
But that doesn't matter you have it in your head and thats the way it is TO YOU>

IMO…………gene

[gsilva72]

Hi Lu,

I don't like the term “only begotten God, Because God did not have a begining. “only begotten Son is a more accurate term when referring to the man Christ Jesus. But when the fulness of the time had come, God sent forth his son born of a woman, born under the law. Gal 4:4

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41)

If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born?

Hi Kathi,

Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child?

Thanks,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
“He was before me..”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,16:48)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy

God is the Father of all spirits.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that he is also the Father of the Angels, as they are all ministering spirits.

He has Fathered many. But he has a begotten son too.

God created sex for male and female to reproduce. God doesn't need to reduce himself to a creature if he wants to have a son. He can do what he wants even outside of his own processes. He is beyond creation itself and not subject to it.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:50)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,16:48) Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,15:41) If that Most High God asexually reproduced ONLY ONE TIME and gave birth to His own child, could that child be considered His only begotten Son and His Firstborn and only born? Hi Kathi, Can you show me where in the OT God tells us that he asexually reproduced and gave birth to his own child? Thanks, Mandy God is the Father of all spirits. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that he is also the Father of the Angels, as they are all ministering spirits. He has Fathered many. But he has a begotten son too. God created sex for male and female to reproduce. God doesn't need to reduce himself to a creature if he wants to have a son. He can do what he wants even outside of his own processes. He is beyond creation itself and not subject to it.

t8 I know what you are saying is true, but you do not give Mandy any prove as how Jesus preexisted before the world was. I given all the scriptures, but still it makes no sense to Her. So what else can you come up with to maybe convince He of that very important doctrine of Jesus being with the Father before all creation. After all firstborn means first in all and preeminence also means first in all. So what is the problem that some don't see what some do?
Peace and Love Mrs.

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