Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…….John the baptist was talking about rank no berth order, the rest of the text proves that. In fact Jesus is before all except the Father Himself in position.

If you Just consider what Peter said, Jesus was (foreordained) before the foundation of the world (BUT) was manifested in our time. And don't forget to take the scriptures where Moses said The Lord shall raise up a prophet like unto Me from (YOUR MIDST) Also the linage given is purely a Human linage
and ends up with Adam (the son of God).

God know from the beginning what (HE) was going to do, God the Father Knows the end from the beginning.

Please tell me One reason or benefit for having Jesus be a reincarnated being.
Could you say He was exactly like you in every way if He was some super preexisting being, who came and walked perfectly on earth, what would that prove to us, a perfect being should walk perfectly, But If God the Father another Adam to be Born exactly like Adam in (every) way and perfect Him as He did the purely Human Jesus, that would show all of Us what He can do for us also.

Anyone who does not see Jesus (exactly) like them self is pushing Him away from Himself, and could never believe they could come to the (FULL) measure or Stature of Christ. Can't you see the example was someone exactly like us became perfect and lived a sinless life by the power of GOD. God's plan all along was for man to image Him, and Jesus is the first to achieve it.

What we need to conceder is who He did it, was it because he was this preexisting perfect Being or an ordinary Man who God the Father was with and caused Him to walk perfectly and overcome all sin. Remember Jesus admonition “who soever (overcomes) even as I Have shall sit with me in the Kingdom. So the (real)question is How Did He overcame , Being (exactly like us in every way.

The whole concept of preexistence destroys the realness of our complete likeness of Jesus Christ and is exactly what Satan wants people to believe, so they really won't relate with Him on a personal level. People today because of these false perceptions do not truly relate with Jesus at all. They don't really see Jesus as a true brother of theirs but as a preexisted GOD, with full powers of creativity AS the True God Has.

We all Know that the True God the Father is different from His creation and non of us conceder's ourselves His equal There is a difference between us and Him and the best we can hope to become is a image or reflection of Him and the (MAN) Jesus was His (The Fathers) demonstration of How we will someday image The Father and it will Be done EXACTLY the same as He Did it with our brother Jesus.

Nick……..don't let no one or thing seperate the likeness of Jesus from yourself.

peace to you and yours…………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So when he said HE WAS BEFORE ME he did not really mean that?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……You have to read it in context get a good Greek translation and read it.

peace……..gene

[gollamudi]

wonderful post my brother Gene. I fully agree with you.
Nick or any pre-existence believer will not appreciate your explanation.
Hi Nick, this is the right time you come out from this dilemma of believing two Gods as you always quote Phil 2:6 and claiming Jesus was some how God in Spirit prior to his birth as human.
I hope you will appreciate this
Peace to all
Adam

[ptr775]

I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist…

Protos

1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons

2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
b) chief
c) principal

3) first, at the first

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,16:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2008,06:29) This is why I believe that to reconcile all the Biblical data, the Trinitarian view best explains the scriptures. There it is right there. You said it yourself. You read scripture with a Trinitarian understanding because that is how you get some understanding of scripture. I have said before that this is how your mind works and now here you are agreeing with my words. As I have quoted before, “you can get vinegar from a sponge, so long as the sponge is first soaked in vinegar”. WJ, your understanding is soaked in Babylon thinking, so you will always get that same understanding from scripture. That is how all cults work. They give you the understanding, and then scripture is always seen in the light of the doctrine that you accept. Mormons, JWS, Trinitarians, Unitarians, and Binatarians can all read scripture with their understanding and not feel threatened by scripture at all. They all do the same thing. The difficult scriptures are overcome by ignoring them, believing a lame explanation for them, or by using a translation that best suits their predefined belief. But it is better to read scripture and let it give you the understanding. If you process everything through a formula, then you are relying on the formula and you will finish with the formula. Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

t8

One thing is for sure, there is no man that has all the truth.

But, there is one who is the arch-deceiver, his name is called satan, and his purpose is to kill, steal, and destroy. This can also be done through the words of humans. He also has many other names, one being “Accuser of the Brethren”.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I really don’t care what you think of my beliefs, but I do care what you think of me as a person who has repented accepted Christ as the Son of God and his shed blood and sacrifice for my sins.

It may be hard for you to understand how someone can be saved and still hold on to the Jesus they first believed in for 34 years, especially if they don’t agree with you and your own contrived doctrine.

I think it is shameful for believers making judgment and condemning others as to the sincerity of their convictions or beliefs.

Jesus said…
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. Luke 9:49, 50

In my opinion, patronizing, false accusations, condemning. Condescension, are not from the Spirit of God.

Jesus also said…

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt 10:16

So much dialogue here is not harmless as doves, and I will admit I have also been guilty. But I really do try not to let the debates become personal and start name calling or attacking the person, but rather attack what I believe as false without calling them ministers of satan or liars etc.

I think people do this because they cannot support their beliefs or are just frustrated.

Anyway you say…

Quote

WJ, your understanding is soaked in Babylon thinking, so you will always get that same understanding from scripture. That is how all cults work.

I have been here on this sight for going on 2 years with 1000s of post and have not seen you change anything in your understanding or beliefs.

How is it that you think that you have a corner on the truth?

What makes you think that your understanding of scripture is infallible?

There are millions who would disagree with you, and it is possible that they are right and you are wrong. Or have you come to perfect understanding and what you say or believe cannot possibly be wrong?

If I believe in Yeshua as the Son of God and claim Yeshua has saved me, then if you are saved that makes us brothers.

One promise the scriptures gives us concerning the accuser of the brethren is…

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:11

[Not3in1]

Keith,

I have to tell you that your post is one of the greatest posts I have ever read here on heavennet – and I've been here over a year now (also with 1000's of posts). Your spirit that shines through is truly the fruit of the One, Great Spirit that we all love. I believe your example is as close as we will ever get to unity with the Lord. God bless you, brother. R e a l G o o d!

Much love and thankfulness,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (ptr775 @ May 29 2008,02:06)

I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist… Protos 1) first in time or place  a) in any succession of things or persons 2) first in rank   a) influence, honour   b) chief   c) principal 3) first, at the first

Dear Oneness people:

I am going to prove to you that this passage is not about a predestined plan as you say in verse John 1:18 and that the Son of God is called the Begotten God.

Here is the passage in question, John 1:14-18.  I have included the Greek below two of the verses.

14. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' ”

Iwannhv marturei (5719) peri autou kai kekragen (5754) legwn, (5723) Outov hn (5713) on eipon, (5627) O opisw mou erxomenov (5740) emprosqen mou gegonen, (5754) oti prwtov mou hn. (5713)

16. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

17. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

18. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato.

Here goes:

Now, referring to v. 15 and the words “He existed”

The Greek word “hn” (Strong's#2258) is an imperfect form (or a past tense form) of the root word “eimi” (Strong's # 1510-to be, to exist, to happen, to be present)

To be in conjugated as : is, am are, was, were, be, being, been.  As in the word “to exist” it would be: exist, existed, will exist.  In this verse “existed” is used because of how it is written in the Greek.  Now, because of how it is written and the context, we know that:

This Greek word “hn” (He existed) acts as a verb in this sentence.

Is written in the 3rd Person-that is why it says “He” and not me or you

Is in the IMPERFECT TENSE which means PAST tense
which is why it says existed and not exists.

Is in the ACTIVE voice meaning the SUBJECT IS DOING THE ACTION and not written in the passive voice which would mean that the action is being done to the subject.  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  IF HE EXISTED AS A PLAN THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A “PASSIVE VOICE.”  You see, a plan cannot do its own existing, it has to be put into existence by someone.  A plan exists or existed in a passive way.

It is in the Indicative mood. The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

And is Singular and relates to the singular subject-the Son of God.  

Context is very important when trying to understand this verse.  The context tells us that John is speaking about Jesus as the “Begotten God” in verse 18 and again the “Only Begotten from the Father” in verse 14.

Notice the Greek in verse 18
“monogenhv qeov” this means only begotten God not merely only begotten as in a heavenly son or human son.  qeov transliterated is theos which means god or God.

So, to sum up…

John is talking about the Son of God who actively, not passively as a mere plan, but actively existed before him (John the Baptist, who was actually conceived before Jesus).  Yes, the Son of God actually existed in an active way before His conception in Mary.  He existed as the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD and still is the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.

You can view this info at:

http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na

http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na

http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk

This is alot of info but it is important to settle this and to settle alot of the debating on this thread.

God bless,
LU

[NickHassan]

Quote (ptr775 @ May 29 2008,18:06)

I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist… Protos 1) first in time or place  a) in any succession of things or persons 2) first in rank   a) influence, honour   b) chief   c) principal 3) first, at the first

Hi GB,
So he WAS FIRST in one or more of these ways.
How could he HAVE BEEN first if he did not exist?

[Not3in1]

Kathi,

It makes sense to me that if Jesus is God's Son through the conception with Mary, that he would be considered “God”. He is from his Father, and his Father is God.

Growing up in the Assembly of God church, I heard many refer to Jesus as the “God-man”. Of course this was their way of inferring that Jesus was both puny man and God Almighty at the very same time. Keeping that straight perserved the trinity dogma.

However you are not saying that Jesus is another “God” to be worshipped in his own God-right, you are merely stating that God refers to his son as “God” – meaning that Jesus is his boy. Correct? I realize you say it better, but I'm just trying to clarify.

Thanks,
Mandy

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,05:18)

Quote (ptr775 @ May 29 2008,02:06) I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist… Protos 1) first in time or place  a) in any succession of things or persons 2) first in rank   a) influence, honour   b) chief   c) principal 3) first, at the first Dear Oneness people: I am going to prove to you that this passage is not about a predestined plan as you say in verse John 1:18 and that the Son of God is called the Begotten God. Here is the passage in question, John 1:14-18.  I have included the Greek below two of the verses. 14. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' ” Iwannhv marturei (5719) peri autou kai kekragen (5754) legwn, (5723) Outov hn (5713) on eipon, (5627) O opisw mou erxomenov (5740) emprosqen mou gegonen, (5754) oti prwtov mou hn. (5713) 16. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato. Here goes: Now, referring to v. 15 and the words “He existed” The Greek word “hn” (Strong's#2258) is an imperfect form (or a past tense form) of the root word “eimi” (Strong's # 1510-to be, to exist, to happen, to be present) To be in conjugated as : is, am are, was, were, be, being, been.  As in the word “to exist” it would be: exist, existed, will exist.  In this verse “existed” is used because of how it is written in the Greek.  Now, because of how it is written and the context, we know that: This Greek word “hn” (He existed) acts as a verb in this sentence. Is written in the 3rd Person-that is why it says “He” and not me or you Is in the IMPERFECT TENSE which means PAST tense which is why it says existed and not exists. Is in the ACTIVE voice meaning the SUBJECT IS DOING THE ACTION and not written in the passive voice which would mean that the action is being done to the subject.  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  IF HE EXISTED AS A PLAN THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A “PASSIVE VOICE.”  You see, a plan cannot do its own existing, it has to be put into existence by someone.  A plan exists or existed in a passive way. It is in the Indicative mood. The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. And is Singular and relates to the singular subject-the Son of God.   Context is very important when trying to understand this verse.  The context tells us that John is speaking about Jesus as the “Begotten God” in verse 18 and again the “Only Begotten from the Father” in verse 14. Notice the Greek in verse 18 “monogenhv qeov” this means only begotten God not merely only begotten as in a heavenly son or human son.  qeov transliterated is theos which means god or God. So, to sum up… John is talking about the Son of God who actively, not passively as a mere plan, but actively existed before him (John the Baptist, who was actually conceived before Jesus).  Yes, the Son of God actually existed in an active way before His conception in Mary.  He existed as the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD and still is the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD. You can view this info at: http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk This is alot of info but it is important to settle this and to settle alot of the debating on this thread. God bless, LU

Hi Kathi! Very good Post and I do agree. Even without the Greek translation, I have proven to myself by looking at what
Col. 1:15-18 says and Rev. 3:14 says, besides what John is saying. We do have a Son of God and the Alnighty God. The Almighty God being above all, that is why we say that there is only One God. But when you read in other sciptures you will find that God is used aslo as the God of this World for instance being Satan. I truly believe we have to look at the big picture of all and see if it lines up with other sciptures. If it does, we have the true meaning. That is how I study and have seen that Jesus did exsist before the world was. As a Spirit being like the Father and all the Angels. How could He be the firstborn of all creation, if He was not there?
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,03:54)

Keith, I have to tell you that your post is one of the greatest posts I have ever read here on heavennet – and I've been here over a year now (also with 1000's of posts).  Your spirit that shines through is truly the fruit of the One, Great Spirit that we all love.  I believe your example is as close as we will ever get to unity with the Lord.  God bless you, brother.  R e a l   G o o d!   Much love and thankfulness, Mandy

Thanks not3.

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2008,05:18)

Quote (ptr775 @ May 29 2008,02:06) I agree, the greek word Protos does not simply mean that Jesus was created before John the Baptist… Protos 1) first in time or place  a) in any succession of things or persons 2) first in rank   a) influence, honour   b) chief   c) principal 3) first, at the first Dear Oneness people: I am going to prove to you that this passage is not about a predestined plan as you say in verse John 1:18 and that the Son of God is called the Begotten God. Here is the passage in question, John 1:14-18.  I have included the Greek below two of the verses. 14. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' ” Iwannhv marturei (5719) peri autou kai kekragen (5754) legwn, (5723) Outov hn (5713) on eipon, (5627) O opisw mou erxomenov (5740) emprosqen mou gegonen, (5754) oti prwtov mou hn. (5713) 16. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato. Here goes: Now, referring to v. 15 and the words “He existed” The Greek word “hn” (Strong's#2258) is an imperfect form (or a past tense form) of the root word “eimi” (Strong's # 1510-to be, to exist, to happen, to be present) To be in conjugated as : is, am are, was, were, be, being, been.  As in the word “to exist” it would be: exist, existed, will exist.  In this verse “existed” is used because of how it is written in the Greek.  Now, because of how it is written and the context, we know that: This Greek word “hn” (He existed) acts as a verb in this sentence. Is written in the 3rd Person-that is why it says “He” and not me or you Is in the IMPERFECT TENSE which means PAST tense which is why it says existed and not exists. Is in the ACTIVE voice meaning the SUBJECT IS DOING THE ACTION and not written in the passive voice which would mean that the action is being done to the subject.  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  IF HE EXISTED AS A PLAN THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A “PASSIVE VOICE.”  You see, a plan cannot do its own existing, it has to be put into existence by someone.  A plan exists or existed in a passive way. It is in the Indicative mood. The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. And is Singular and relates to the singular subject-the Son of God.   Context is very important when trying to understand this verse.  The context tells us that John is speaking about Jesus as the “Begotten God” in verse 18 and again the “Only Begotten from the Father” in verse 14. Notice the Greek in verse 18 “monogenhv qeov” this means only begotten God not merely only begotten as in a heavenly son or human son.  qeov transliterated is theos which means god or God. So, to sum up… John is talking about the Son of God who actively, not passively as a mere plan, but actively existed before him (John the Baptist, who was actually conceived before Jesus).  Yes, the Son of God actually existed in an active way before His conception in Mary.  He existed as the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD and still is the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD. You can view this info at: http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….5&nt=na http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ol=grk This is alot of info but it is important to settle this and to settle alot of the debating on this thread. God bless, LU

LU

Excellent post.

We are very close in our beliefs. However when I have some real time I would like to go in depth with you concerning your bold post (I mean that in a positive way) in acknowledging Yeshua is God. I still have some questions for you?

Blessings to you and keep up the good fight. You are an asset here.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……….Jesus was first in Place or rank. John went on the say because He is preferred before me , showing John was Only talking about Rank not berth order. He even went on to say He wasn't worthy to lace His sandals. So it obvious he is talking about rank and position not age. If he was talking about age he wouldn't have said all the rest of what he was saying. He was showing position and authority, that all.

Don't any of you realize that if Jesus was a preexisting Being before he came to earth, that He would have made that very clear and all the Apostles would have also.

Can't you see it would not have benefited any of us for Him to have preexisted. But it greatly benefits us if he came into existence at the time of his berth from Mary.

Why would it greatly benefit us?, Because we then have an exact copy of Us in every way and we can see what God the Father did through Him and it would far greater encourage us then if He preexisted as some kind of perfect super being.

God did not take a preexisting perfect super creator being and kill him and reincarnate Him and affect and kill him again. Total nonsense.

Can someone give me a reason God the Father would do that? What purpose would that serve.

Pure trinitarian garbage.

Nick start using you head quit forcing the text.

peace to you …………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
When was Jesus first in rank?

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………I guess Jesus didn't call the Pharisees, Snakes, Vipers, lairs, deceitfully workers,blind guides, wolves, and he didn't say He (HATE) the deed of the Nicholatians, and Jude didn't say all the things He said, right. And Peter didn't say the things He did either.

While Jesus didn't say He hated the Nicholatians personally, he did say he hated their teachings and deeds.

If you see the damage false doctrines do you cant help but Hate these teachings, I personally do that with your trinitarian teaching, but I absolute do not Hate you as a person. In fact i fell some what sorry for you and feel some day God will show you the errors of those teachings, and you will grow to Hate them also.

Yes you can truly Hate the way someone lives and what they do and are saying, but still love them. That is if you have God's spirit in you, Other wise you will Hate the person, and that is the same as a murder.

I respect the (RIGHT) of everyone to have an opinion , but I don't necessarily have respect for their opinion.

peace to you and yours WJ……………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,11:37)

Hi GB, When was Jesus first in rank?

Nick……He was positioned to have that rank before the foundations of the word, He was in God's plan and as it says, “at the right time He (God) brought Him Forth. Read Peter He explains it ” Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the world (BUT) was manifested in (OUR) time. Not (REINCARNATED IN OUR TIME)” Ask yourself why would Peter say it that way if Jesus preexisted.

Come on Nick use you head. There is no purpose for Jesus to have preexisted. Think about it.

Love and peace to you and yours……………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So he did not exist except in the plan of God?
John did not say that.

[GeneBalthrop]

John did not say Jesus existed as a being before He was born to Mary either So why would you assume it. I gave you what the original Greek says and there is nothing that give evidence of His preexistence as a being at all.

I will ask you again what advantage would it be if Jesus did Preexist, Please answer this question if you can, Give me One good reason for that.

I have already given you reasons for him not being preexistent and the benefits we receive from knowing that.

peace Nick………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
John said he WAS before him.
He did not say he IS before him though.
He did not say God's plan was that he would be before him.

[Author]

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