Preexistence

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2008,17:21)

Hi Lightenup: You say: Quote Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. Please show me this by the scriptures.  Thanks.

Hi 94,
Okay, I'll show you…

1 John 5:18 – 2 John 3

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols.
2 John
1:1 Walk According to His Commandments
The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
NASU

The above states in v. 18 that “He who was born OF God”. It doesn't say “He who was born TO God” as He when He came through Mary. At that time, He was born OF woman, specifically Mary, and born TO God.

Gal 4:3-4
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman
NASU

We are never told of God being sexual or of another goddess being involved, so I conclude that it was asexual reproduction. God did invent the concept asexual reproduction as well as sexual reproduction afterall.

Here it clearly speaks of Jesus as the only begotten God:
And yes, the Greek word is theos here.
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

Blessings!

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…….Show me one scripture that say Jesus the person was with GOD in the Beginning. Not in the form of a preordained Plan or purpose, Please don't imply it, show it specifically saying this > Jesus Christ alive was existing with GOD IN the beginning as a person or being of some kind. Then you will have convinced me of His origin. If not you only have suppositions and no legitimate proof.

And while your at it explain to us why God would take a already existing perfect Son of His Kill him and rebirth Him and watch him walk a perfect life. What kind of example is that to Us, a perfect person walks perfect, how are we supposed to relate to that. Common sense tell you thats not what happened . God didn't strip anyone of what He was, He Simply created another Flesh and Blood Adam an exact replica of the first Adam in every way and gave Him His spirit and perfected Him and Keep Him From sinning. He was the First to image God from mankind and the last of mankind will be the same as He, an image of God The Father. So he is what the first is, and the last to be will be. Jesus was a prototype of what God Had in mind from the beginning. If you see Jesus as different from ourselves then what hope can we have of ever coming to the full stature of Christ.

Jesus' preexistence would defeat the whole purpose of God's work in mankind.

IMO………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Indeed.
1Jn4
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

How could the unique monogenes son be sent into the world if he did not exist?

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
The Son chose to come.
He chose submission in humility[Phil2]
He chose to accept being stripped of his glory and taking the form of lowly man, indeed becoming flesh.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……..don't you see Satan wants us to think Jesus is different then we are, it a way of destroying Faith in God the Father. It subtle and very deadly because it works in the minds and hearts of people, and destroys their hope which in turn destroys their faith. It's very important we see Jesus exactly like we are with no advantages other then God was With Him, and it's the same with us.

May God help you to understand that………………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Jesus is no different.
He is an ordinary man changed by God's grace.
His origins are different but the end result is a man like us we can follow.

[942767]

Hi:

As I have stated, I have intepreted the following scripture, when God uses the word “us”, in the past to mean that He was talking to the spirit of his Son, but the scriptures do not tell us to whom He was talking.  He may have been talking to the angels.  Since He doesn't tell us to whom He is speaking, any opinion we give is speculation.  

God speaking to Job: NLT

Quote

Job 38:4   “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much.   Job 38:5   Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying?   Job 38:6   What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone   Job 38:7   as the morning stars sang together and all the angels[fn1] (Hebrew=sons of God) shouted for joy?

We know that man did not exist at this time because God is talking about making man in His image.  Jesus is a man, not just any man, but nevertheless a man, and he did not exist at that time, at least not as a man.  If you say that he existed before his advent on earth, convince me by showing me in what form he existed.  Otherwise, my understanding of the scriptures tells me that he was foreordained, but he did not exist prior to his birth of the virgin Mary.

There are many instances in the OT where God uses angels to speak to mankind.

Quote

Hbr 2:2  For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; Hbr 2:3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Quote

Hbr 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Hbr 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And so, God may have been talking to the angels about helping Him with making man in His and their image.

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2008,10:53)

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2008,17:21) Hi Lightenup: You say: Quote Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. Please show me this by the scriptures.  Thanks. Hi 94, Okay, I'll show you… 1 John 5:18 – 2 John 3 18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols. 2 John 1:1 Walk According to His Commandments The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. NASU The above states in v. 18 that “He who was born OF God”.  It doesn't say “He who was born TO God” as He when He came through Mary.  At that time, He was born OF woman, specifically Mary, and born TO God. Gal 4:3-4 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman NASU   We are never told of God being sexual or of another goddess being involved, so I conclude that it was asexual reproduction.  God did invent the concept asexual reproduction as well as sexual reproduction afterall. Here it clearly speaks of Jesus as the only begotten God: And yes, the Greek word is theos here. John 1:18 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.   NASU Blessings!

Hi Lightenup:

But your words is that he was born of God before the foundation of the world, I don't see the words “before the foundation of the world” in these scriptures.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
FOREORDAIN only occurs once in scripture in 1 Peter 1.20
Number 4267
Transliteration:
proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko}
Word Origin:
from 4253 and 1097
TDNT:
1:715,119
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1

Total: 5
Definition:
to have knowledge before hand
to foreknow
of those whom God elected to salvation
to predestinate

So it has nothing to say about origins but only the place of the SON in the plan of God.

[942767]

Hi lLightenup:

Also, these scriptures are referring to someone who has been born again.  Jesus was born again from the dead.  And we who are born again Christians have been also been born again from the dead.  

Also, You apparently used the NIV translation of 1 John 5:18.

The KJV translates this as follows:

Quote

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

but    [235]    alla  
he that is begotten  [1080]    gennao  
of    [1537]    ek  
God    [2316]    theos  
keepeth    [5083]    tereo  
himself,    [1438]    heautou

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,11:08)

Hi LU, Indeed. 1Jn4 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  How could the unique monogenes son be sent into the world if he did not exist?

Hi Nick:

He was sent into the world at the time that he was anointed for his ministry.

When God sent him he was His only Begotten. Following is the portion of the scripture indicating this from what you quoted:

Quote

God sent his only begotten Son into the world

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Is this sending shown in scripture or are you presuming it?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….94, is no more presuming it, then you are presuming He was sent from another place into the universe or something.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
He was in the world when he was sent into the world?
Scripture offers rather that he was begotten then brought into the world.
Heb 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels

[942767]

This is a Post that t8 made          Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?                    
——————————————————————————–I, 94 have made some comments relative to t8's comments.

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

(My response to the above is that Jesus came down from heaven in two ways.  First he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.  Secondly, the Word of God that obeyed came from God to humanity through him.)

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

(My Response to this is that he was foreordained. “1Pe 1:18  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you “)

 Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

( My Response:  The “before all ages” here may refer to God, but if it refers to Jesus the same answer as was given above and that is that he was foreordained.)

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

(My Response is that he was foreodained.)

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

(My Response is that God made every thing with him (Jesus in mind).  He did not create anything.  He is not the creator.  Jesus says:  Jhn 17:3  “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”   Gen 1:1 ¶ “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” )

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

(My response is that you misinterpret what Jesus said just like the Pharisees did. Here is what Jesus said in context:  Jhn 8:56  “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
Jhn 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

If Abraham “rejoiced to see my day”, that means that he did not exist at that time but that he would exist at sometime in the future.  Abraham saw this by faith in the promises that God had made to him.
Again, Jesus by saying “before Abraham was, I am” was saying that he was foreordained before Abraham was born.)

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

(My response is that he was born of the seed of David after the flesh and so, he is the offspring of David, but he is also David's Lord.)

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

(You say, “it appears that Satan  and his angels fell to earth before the birth of Christ as a man”.  I don't see where you get this assumption.  The scripture in Luke 10 follows in context:  Luk 10:17 ¶ :And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19  Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Again, us use the words “it appears” which is an assumption on your part.  Here is what Rev. 12 states:
Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

The devil was cast out of heaven because he was deceiving the whole world.  It doesn't say anything about before the birth of Christ into the world.  The following verses about the dragon relate to Herod when he tried to kill baby Jesus by killing all of the babies.

Rev 12:3  “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born” )

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

(My response is that it no one but Jesus who was foreordained.)

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and th
is is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

(My response is that Jesus was foreordained.  You “assume that Jesus gave the Law”.  How so?  It is said that God gave the Law to Moses.  Jesus said that he was Lord of the Sabbath because it is he who is the judge of whether or not someone is violating the Sabbath.  The disciples were accused of violating the Sabbath law, and his judgment was that they were not guilty.) 

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

(My response is sorry, the scripture states that they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them KJV

3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink;

The spiritual food and drink refers to the Ten Commandments tthat God gave to the Nation of Israel through Moses which Jesus stated that he came to fulfill.  And they are fulfilled in him.)

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

( My response: You say that about the above: “Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.”  Again, this is an assumption on your part.  How does the above suggest what you say?

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.)

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

(My response is yes he existed when he was born into the world.  And he was sent into the world by God as His Christ, His Apostle, meaning that he was sent by God, when he began his ministry.  And Jesus stated several times that he was sent by God.)

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

(My response is that the Apostle Paul's intention here was to instruct the church in humility.  The words “being in very nature God” is present tense, and Jesus was that as God's Christ.  No, it does not teach pre-existence.)

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

(My response is that he cannot be exalted any higher than being at the right hand of God, and being made the head over everything that God has created.   If you say he pre-existed, what position did he hold when he pre-existed?)

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

(My response is that the following verse clarifies what Jesus was saying:

Jhn 17:24  “Father, I will that they also, who
m thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”)

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

(My response is that Jesus is that Jesus did come down from heaven in two ways.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and his spirit the Word of God that God taught him by His Spirit came down from heaven.  Jesus in these scriptures is trying to explain to Nicodemus about being born again, and it leads to best known scripture in the NT, John 3:16.)

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

(My Response is that it may be interesting but it doesn't prove pre-existence.  There are other visions of the Lord in the OT, but God has also shown me visions of things to come.)

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

(My response is that he was perfected after he was born into this world and was the “express image of God” through the works that he did in obedience to God in this world.  Hbr 5:8   “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
Hbr 5:9   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

John 14:8   “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.  
Jhn 14:9   Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?  
Jhn 14:10   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” )

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

(My Response is that I don't believe that you have proven this.)  

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

(My Response is that yes, God created all things with him in mind as his heir.)

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

(Again, Jesus is God's heir.  God made everything that he made with Jesus in mind.)

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from vers
e 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

(My Response is that you yourself stated that these verses are talking about wisdom.  Wisdom comes through the understanding and application of God's Word.)

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

(My Response is “God” and the name of his Son is Jesus.  Jesus obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and so, this is definetly wisdom.  But all wisdom comes from God.  Jesus said that he did not teach or obey his own thoughts.  He taught and obeyed God's Word.)

Participate in a discussion called “Who is Jesus, The nature and person of Jesus”? ( My response:  And Jesus asked the disciples, Who do men say that I am?  And Peter replied: “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”  And Jesus said, “Blessed are you Simon bar Jona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but my Father who is in heaven”)

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I believe that explains it pretty good, thank you t8
Peace abd Love Mrs. (Well Mrs. I have given my comments with love 94)

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,12:05)

Hi 94, FOREORDAIN only occurs once in scripture in 1 Peter 1.20 Number 4267 Transliteration: proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko} Word Origin: from 4253 and 1097 TDNT: 1:715,119 Part of Speech: verb Usage in the KJV: foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1 Total: 5 Definition: to have knowledge before hand to foreknow of those whom God elected to salvation to predestinate   So it has nothing to say about origins but only the place of the SON in the plan of God.

Hi Nick:

The scripture says nothing about pre-existence, but as you say, it does say that Jesus was fore-ordained.

We know his origin. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
A body was prepared
for him.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,13:51)

Hi 94, Is this sending shown in scripture or are you presuming it?

Hi Nick:

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Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

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Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

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Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

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Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

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Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

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Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

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Jhn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work

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Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

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Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Jhn 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. Jhn 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Jhn 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. Jhn 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me. Jhn 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him. Jhn 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and [then] I go unto him that sent me. Jhn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

[Lightenup]

Hi 94,
Here are two versions of the same verse in 1 John 1:18:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

First of all lets look at the second phrase in both versions,

KJ: but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
NASB: but He who was born of God keeps him.

which one is accurate to the greek? Answer: The verb “gennhqeiv” is written in the aorist tense which is a past tense in Greek. So, “was born” is the correct translation. The NKJV attempts to correct this but still misses the meaning, imo.

Allow me to paraphrase to help portray my understanding:
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins (speaking of the born again believer still alive on earth); but He (the Son of God-Jesus) who was born of God keeps him (the born again believer), and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

The original author makes a distinction between the two who are born of God. One “is” born of God and the next “was” born of God. It is interesting that the NASB capitalizes the He in the second phrase.

It is the Lord Jesus that protects us from the evil one. We can know that by reading this passage:

2 Thess 3:1-4

Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord will spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you; 2 and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
NASU

I hope that I cleared that up for you.

Blessings!

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2008,17:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,15:33) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,20:52) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,10:36) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:42) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,08:28) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:04) Hi Mrs: The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows: Quote Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation.  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God.  He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead. My understanding is that God created everything that he created with Jesus in mind.  He created all that he created for him.  Jesus is God's heir, and Jesus is good enough to share with a us a portion of his inheritance. Quote Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Quote Gen 1:27  So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; God Bless Quote The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows: Quote Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation.  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God.  He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead. Hi 94, Excuse me for kinda jumping in here but I am trying to wrap my mind around your above quote.  You say that Jesus is the first of humanity to be born of God.  When do you see that having happened…as He was born from Mary or when?   I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Blessings! Hi Lightenup: No problem with you jumping in at anytime.  Firstborn of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, yes. God Bless Hi 94, Thank you for your answer.   Now regarding John 1:1 John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NASU Am I correct in thinking that you believe that John 1:1 is referring to Jesus in the beginning with God merely as a wonderful plan in the thoughts of God.  A plan that will come as a human that passes on God's word to others after He is born of Mary and was not active in any way before that? Still, trying to understand you, I hope you don't mind. Blessings Hi Lightenup: You can read what I believe about John 1:1 here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….john+11 God Bless Thank you so much 94 for your link.  I read through your thoughts and that helped me understand you a bit better.  So, you believe Jesus, in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, was merely an idea and not something or somebody that could actually do anything.  In fact, an idea doesn't act on its own but the person with the idea (who happens to be God in this case) must be the one doing the action to actually begin carrying out His own idea.  Would you agree to this? Please bear with me 94, this really is going someplace Hi Lightenup: Yes, I do agree with this.

Hi 94,
Thank you for your patience. Ok, so you agree that an idea does not act on its own but the one with the idea must be the one doing the action.

In the case of John 1:1-2:
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
NASU

Every time that you see the word “was” in the above verses, it is written in the Greek in an active voice which means the subject does the action and not as in the passive voice where the subject receives the action. So, I do not believe these verses are talking about an idea or a plan. As you agree, an idea can not do the acting. By the way, the subject in each of these phrases is the “word”.

Well, I have spent more time on this today than I can continue doing. G'nite 94, blessings to you!

Do you understand how to determine the active voice and passive voice in Greek verbs? Studylight.org i
s an online source that can tell you if the verb is active or passive and many other things about the Greek or Hebrew for that matter.
If you want me to take you through the steps to find that info on that site, let me know and I will be happy to show you.

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