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Hi GB,
God was not alone in the beginning of Genesis.
His hosts and His sons were with him.
That includes the firstborn.gsilva72…..> have you noticed your quote in Genesis 3:22, that another word has appeared in the writings, instead of Just God, the word LORD appears also. The Lord God (SAID). It means one person LORD (He Exists) GOD (with Powers).
The POWERS, of God in (MY OPINION) are the Seven Spirits of God that go to and fro thought the earth . And perform the one true WILL of the Only true God. “Hear “O” Israel the Lord (HE EXISTS) our God (POWERS) is (ONE), LORD. Not three triune beings or essences as taught by pagan ideologies.
IMO……gene
Isaiah 6:3 “And one cried to another and said:“ Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”
The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: “ Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”
I find the Holy,holy,holy in these scriptures pretty interesting.(Father,Son,Holy spirit) One God
Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,20:52) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,10:36) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:42) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,08:28) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:04) Hi Mrs: The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows:
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God. He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead.
My understanding is that God created everything that he created with Jesus in mind. He created all that he created for him. Jesus is God's heir, and Jesus is good enough to share with a us a portion of his inheritance.
Quote Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Quote Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;God Bless
Quote The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows: Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God. He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead.
Hi 94,
Excuse me for kinda jumping in here but I am trying to wrap my mind around your above quote. You say that Jesus is the first of humanity to be born of God. When do you see that having happened…as He was born from Mary or when?I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
Blessings!
Hi Lightenup:No problem with you jumping in at anytime. Firstborn of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, yes.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Thank you for your answer.
Now regarding John 1:1
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASUAm I correct in thinking that you believe that John 1:1 is referring to Jesus in the beginning with God merely as a wonderful plan in the thoughts of God. A plan that will come as a human that passes on God's word to others after He is born of Mary and was not active in any way before that?
Still, trying to understand you, I hope you don't mind.
Blessings
Hi Lightenup:You can read what I believe about John 1:1 here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….john+11
God Bless
Thank you so much 94 for your link. I read through your thoughts and that helped me understand you a bit better. So, you believe Jesus, in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, was merely an idea and not something or somebody that could actually do anything. In fact, an idea doesn't act on its own but the person with the idea (who happens to be God in this case) must be the one doing the action to actually begin carring out His own idea. Would you agree to this?Please bear with me 94, this really is going someplace
gsilva72……Again your adding words to the text, that what the trinitarian ideologies does it makes you presume things that are not said or implied.
Holy,holy, holy, means Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ?
the four living creatures are giving praise to (The Lord God Almighty) the Father no one else. “Hear “O” Israel the Lord our God is (ONE) Lord”.
gsilva72…> if you can get away from the trinitarian mind set, you may be surprised how much clearer scripture becomes.
have a good night…………….gene
John8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.I guess Abraham was just seeing things and Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he said before Abraham was, I am.
By the way, the Holy,holy,holy was written that way for a reason. Notice the first H in the first Holy is capitalized! Or maybe the scholars just don't know what they are doing.
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 19 2008,13:45) Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. Genesis 3:22″Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
Genesis 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.”
Isaish 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
All these scriptures when referring to God use the word us! Now someone must have pre-existed. He isn't just talking to a thought or an expression that some claim John 1:1 is saying!
Hi gsilva72:It is not clear why God uses “Us” in Genesis 1:26 saying: “Let us make man in our image”, but in the following verse states:
Quote 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. Genesis 1:26 implies God having help in “making man in our image”, but verse 27 states: “And God created man in his own image”. No help here. He did it by Himself. Verse 27 may be referring to the first Adam who was in God's image in that he was a living soul. The last Adam is perfected through obedience to the Word of God. In using the term “us” God may have been speaking to spirit of His Son. I have interpreted this that way in the past because of the following scriptures:
Quote 1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.In the following scripture God may have been speaking to the angels: “like one of us, to know good and evil”.
Quote Genesis 3:22″Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever Again, God may have been speaking to the angels in the following scripture:
Quote Genesis 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.” In the following verses it appears that God did not have any help that He did this by Himself:
Quote Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.The “us” in the final verse may be referring to God and his creation, angels and man.
Quote Isaish 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” You say:
Quote All these scriptures when referring to God use the word us! Now someone must have pre-existed. He isn't just talking to a thought or an expression that some claim John 1:1 is saying! I realize that the explanations for how God may be using the word “us” in these scriptures is speculation. God does not tell us to whom he is referring. I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed his birth of the Virgin Mary. I know that he exists now of that there is no doubt.
If Jesus pre-existed his virgin birth, in what form did he pre-exist?
This is a Post that t8 made Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
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John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.
Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoice
d in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Participate in a discussion called “Who is Jesus, The nature and person of Jesus”?
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I believe that explains it pretty good, thank you t8
Peace abd Love Mrs.to all…..> no where in all that T8 gave is there anywhere where Jesus ever said He preexisted as a being before His berth on Earth. Don't you think (IF) he did he would have made it absolute clear himself and don't you think the Apostles would have absolute affirmed it, Something so important a subject as that would have been. T8 says Jesus gave the law to Moses and was the angel that followed them and all kind of suppositions, but Jesus never said that and surely if such were the case, Jesus would at least let his disciples know that wouldn't He.
But Peter said He was forerdained from the foundations of the world, why did he use the word (foreordained) in stead of preexisted, because foreordained means He was Prophesied, in the plan and Will of God to come, but did not the exist, then He went on to say (BUT) was manifested in our time, the word Manifested means to bring into existence or appear.
And what do you do with all the scriptures that show where God said He (ALONE) Created the world and everything in it. The word (ALONE) means (NO ONE ELSE WAS THERE), right.
What do you do with Paul saying Jesus was the (Second) Adam, Not the incarnate being of a preexisting age you preexistences are implying.
So it looks like we have a (counter diction of scriptures) How do you preexistences explain that.
Preexistences are no more than (midway) Trinitarians , who haven't fully got all the trinitarian hog wash out of their minds.
If were going to discuss the issue at least look at all the scriptures that show there is Only One True God. Who upholds (All things) by the Power of His Might.
HEAR 'O' ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD., Not two or three Lord Gods, I mean come on people can't you understand that God plainly said in the commandments you shall have (NO) other GOD'S (BESIDES ME).
Jesus fully understood he could do nothing by himself, even the miracles were done by God not him. Jesus was an example of how we and Him are to be with respect to the Father and there is no difference between Him and Us, because He was and is just like us. We must see what God the Father can do through an ordinary Man who was and is exactly like we are, or your denying Him and GOD the Father also.
To see it any different is to deny Christ's work, and is Antichrist Period.
IMO……………..gene
To all,
I could see a general contractor of all the homes in a new subdivision as advertising that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. Eventhough, he used framers, plumbers, electricians, etc. He would be correct in saying that he was the 'only one' that built the homes in that neighborhood. He got the plans made, he gave the orders, he paid the subs and suppliers, he was in charge and it is he that the homeowners came to if there was something wrong, yes? So, I can certainly see how the Most High God could say that He alone created all things (there was no other 'general contractor' in other words.) When the scriptures say:
1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUIn this passage the General Contractor-the Most High God, is telling us who was the only subcontractor-the master craftsman who was by His Father's side-the Son of the Most High God, the one who was predestined to act as a Messiah in the future. I understand the Son of God's role as the Messiah is what was predestined but actually all the Son of God's roles were all predestined since He did not eternally exist, imo. Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. The role of the master craftsman of creation was carried out many years before His role as the Messiah.
It is possible for one person to wear many hats, so to speak. The only begotten God, the actual only Son of God, wore the hat of the master craftsman during creation, I tend to think he wore the 'hat' of a visible messenger at times to people in the old testament (possibly in the fiery furnace, speaker to Joshua, Yahweh to Abraham, etc.) and all that before he took on the 'hats' of a man to mankind, the Jewish Messiah, our Savior, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, etc. He was the Son of the Most High God in all those 'hats' and some of them He never takes off.
Again, this is my understanding and yes there are verses to support these ideas but I believe you won't understand them this way without God's enlightenment and without surrendering your established ideas.
Hi GB,
The Word who was with God in the beginning is the same Word, the man Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday today and forever, who comes at the head of his servants and the hosts of heaven to establish the kingdom of God in Rev 19.Nick…..again your making the word Spoken by John be Jesus instead of GOD the Father which is what John meant. Read it Just like it's written, don't change anything and think about the meaning of the word (WORD) then apply it, a word is not a person, it is an intellect. Go Back and look at all the Places in the beginning where God (SAID) thats words, and things came into being. Come on, it plainly says the Word WAS GOD. The word is part of what GOD Himself is. Don't change the words written, make whats written fit,don't change it.
If your trying to infer Jesus is the Spokesmen of God words i have no problem with that , but your not saying that your saying Jesus (IS) the Words He spoke, And i have a big problem with that.
Did Jesus not plainly say the word's He spoke were (NOT) HIS> but were the Fathers, then tell me how could he be them then, are we to assume scriptures contradicts here and if so please explain it.
This is the problem of trinitarians and preexistences they don't take into consideration the scriptures that contradicts what their saying in order to get the right balance.
If Jesus says the word he spoke weren't HIS, don't try to make it different from that then. Like i said before Jesus (IS) a SPOKESMAN, of (GOD”S) Words. , “for God spoke to US in times past (THROUGH) the prophets, has in these latter times (SPOKEN) to US (THROUGH) a SON> Now tell me who spoke was it Jesus or God, answer, GOD SPOKE.
In order for Us to have a balance we can't neglect text's that show US differences.
Peace to you and yours Nick……………………..gene
Hi GB,
A word is an intellect?
Are the words you speak now little intellects?
Are these intellects now with you having been spoken into existence?Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,15:33) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,20:52) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,10:36) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:42) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,08:28) Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:04) Hi Mrs: The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows:
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God. He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead.
My understanding is that God created everything that he created with Jesus in mind. He created all that he created for him. Jesus is God's heir, and Jesus is good enough to share with a us a portion of his inheritance.
Quote Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Quote Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;God Bless
Quote The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows: Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Which I believe is the correct translation. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God. He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead.
Hi 94,
Excuse me for kinda jumping in here but I am trying to wrap my mind around your above quote. You say that Jesus is the first of humanity to be born of God. When do you see that having happened…as He was born from Mary or when?I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
Blessings!
Hi Lightenup:No problem with you jumping in at anytime. Firstborn of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, yes.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Thank you for your answer.
Now regarding John 1:1
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASUAm I correct in thinking that you believe that John 1:1 is referring to Jesus in the beginning with God merely as a wonderful plan in the thoughts of God. A plan that will come as a human that passes on God's word to others after He is born of Mary and was not active in any way before that?
Still, trying to understand you, I hope you don't mind.
Blessings
Hi Lightenup:You can read what I believe about John 1:1 here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….john+11
God Bless
Thank you so much 94 for your link. I read through your thoughts and that helped me understand you a bit better. So, you believe Jesus, in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, was merely an idea and not something or somebody that could actually do anything. In fact, an idea doesn't act on its own but the person with the idea (who happens to be God in this case) must be the one doing the action to actually begin carring out His own idea. Would you agree to this?Please bear with me 94, this really is going someplace
Hi Lightenup:Yes, I do agree with this.
Hi Lightenup:
You say:
Quote Jesus was born of God (an asexual reproduction) before the foundation of the world and was born as the only begotten God. Please show me this by the scriptures. Thanks.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,08:29) Hi GB,
A word is an intellect?
—————————————————————–
Nick….> you don't know that? A word is an expressed intellect.
—————————————————————–
you said…..Are the words you speak now little intellects?
——————————————————————
If i Quote something Jesus spoke then they are not MY INTELLECTS are they.
——————————————————————-
You said…..>Are these intellects now with you having been spoken into existence? These words i have spoken are already in existence i am just quoting them, like Jesus was doing, Quoting the Fathers words to Us Just like He said He was. But you are trying to make Jesus the origin of the words He spoke right, big difference.IMO………gene
Nick why is something so simple giving you a problem, Jesus (IS) the Spokesman of (GOD”S) words. He wasn't speaking His own words. Surely you know that don't you?. Because if you don't know that we can go no where with this.IMO………….gene
Hi GB,
Yes the Word was the spokesman for God.
He was with God in the beginning.
He is coming again.
A vessel.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 20 2008,10:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,08:29) Hi GB,
A word is an intellect?
—————————————————————–
Nick….> you don't know that? A word is an expressed intellect.
—————————————————————–
you said…..Are the words you speak now little intellects?
——————————————————————
If i Quote something Jesus spoke then they are not MY INTELLECTS are they.
——————————————————————-
You said…..>Are these intellects now with you having been spoken into existence? These words i have spoken are already in existence i am just quoting them, like Jesus was doing, Quoting the Fathers words to Us Just like He said He was. But you are trying to make Jesus the origin of the words He spoke right, big difference.IMO………gene
Nick why is something so simple giving you a problem, Jesus (IS) the Spokesman of (GOD”S) words. He wasn't speaking His own words. Surely you know that don't you?. Because if you don't know that we can go no where with this.IMO………….gene
Greetings Gene…..A word is a part of an action…attributed to the act of speaking….It does not pertain to intellect….interlect is the knowledge and power by which you communicate using common language ( or words )…..The Eternal created by the utterence of a mere word…(eg. Let there be light )PS. Vulgarity is a use of words and cannot be attributed to interlect if any think the lack thereof…
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