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W.J. and Lightenup Thank you for your post. I do agree with you, I guess most of you know that. I also hope and pray that others will learn from your post and start believing what we think is truth. I need to take it easy and will only make short posts for awhile. Thank you again. Thank you for last night's talk on the Ventrilo Server.
With all my Love and peace to you and yours, Irene and GeorgPtr 745………You are right, there is only one Lord or Yahweh, whose name is (HE EXISTS) and some say Lord God which is to say (He Exists with powers). That the way the Hebrews would have understood it according to Jeff Benner's mechanical translation of the Hebrew language. . And Jesus said quoting from the Old testament, “hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord”. Not two or three triune beings existing in different forms and essences . And notice he said our God that included Him also.
gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,12:54) As I said before……the Trinity belief and preexistence share a lot in common. I wonder why that is?
Mandy! The preexisting of Jesus has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. If you believe just because it says in the beginning was the word and the word was God, that it proves the trinity. God is a title and there are many God's. Satan for one is called the God of this world.
I take the truth even from a J.W. if they can prove what they are saying is right. Or if some body believes in the trinity like W.J. If He can prove it to me, I will believe it.
One has to have an open mind, to let the Holy Spirit teach us through others. I have found that most Churches have some truths.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06) Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.Hi Lightenup.
I agree. Zechariah 14 as well as many other passages shows this to be true.
Isa 1:18 explains this very well.
How exactly does Zechariah 14 show this?
Isa 1:18 is God talking to man…
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If this is God talking to Christ, he is calling him a sinner, and we know this can't be the case.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
The Father is the Most High and the Son is from Him and not equal to Him.Equal in what way? In nature can you tell me how they are not the same?
For instance, if you have children are they any less human than you are?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that the Son didn't always exist but was the only one born directly of God before the foundation of the world as the Most High God's only begotten living heavenly son.
Is there a scripture for this?
Was the Father pregnant with the son? Nature would seem to contradict this. Besides if all things were created by or through Jesus and without him was not anything made that was made. (John 1:3), wouldn’t the all things include “Time, Space and Matter”, and if he created time then how could he have had a beginning?Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that in the Son's beginning, He was empty but became filled with all the fullness of God.Is there a scripture for this?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I also believe the Son to be the literal Spiritual Light that exposes the truth to mankind and visibly represents His Father, as a heavenly being that can take on different forms.Amen. But if he is less than the Father in nature, then his light would be less than the light of the Father. Is there a scripture that says Yeshua is a lesser light?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that the Son took on flesh, even emptied Himself and humbled Himself in a way necessary to become like man, even a baby.But did he diminish his nature before he came in the flesh? If he did then wouldn’t this mean he is not the same person that previously existed?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that the Son became a bondservant and was sacrificed and died for man's sins, and then rose again to be the first to return to the Father of all the dead.Did the Word/God the Spirit of Jesus die? Jesus was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, (1John 1:1-3) was he not? Did he not have Eternal life? Didn’t he say he had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again? If his Spirit was dead, how could he do this?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that the Son is the Head of the church and is worthy as I worship and praise Him as my Lord which ultimately gives pleasure, worship and praise to His/my Father.How does this work with a jealous God that says “thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shall you serve”?
See how muddy things get when you try and insert your own doctrine into scripture. By the way Christ was indeed dead, and we have to remember that most of what Jesus spoke were not his own words, but the words of the Father who dwelled in him through the Holy spirit…
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
and Jesus didn't raise himself up, he had faith that the Father would do that for him…..
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
1Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol – the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter explains that Ps 16:10 is a prophecy from David, not speaking of himself, but speaking of Jesus Christ….
ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God
, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades – the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.t8
I messed up and think I deleted this post.
I hope you can fix it. I couldnt copy it from cache.
Sorry!
Keith
For those reading the entire post is in Ptrs responce. I can piece it back.
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 04 2008,16:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,12:54) As I said before……the Trinity belief and preexistence share a lot in common. I wonder why that is?
Mandy! The preexisting of Jesus has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. If you believe just because it says in the beginning was the word and the word was God, that it proves the trinity. God is a title and there are many God's. Satan for one is called the God of this world.
I take the truth even from a J.W. if they can prove what they are saying is right. Or if some body believes in the trinity like W.J. If He can prove it to me, I will believe it.
One has to have an open mind, to let the Holy Spirit teach us through others. I have found that most Churches have some truths.
Peace and Love Irene
Of course I disagree.Both the trinity doctrine and the preexistence doctrines teach that Jesus is someone other than the Son of God.
Trinity says that Jesus is the second person of God, thereby equal in nature, and has been alive from the beginning. He was “incarnated” into a flesh body and called Jesus. But he was still the same “one” God. Makes no sense whatsoever. Although Keith writes pages and pages trying to do so. I admire the brother, I really do.
Preexistence (minus the trinity doctrine) says that Jesus was beget by God alone and lived in heaven until he was supernaturally placed inside a womb where he did not undergo true conception, but where the spiritual son grew side-by-side with Mary's humanity. She was a factory that popped out a “son” who had her skin on. But he was in fact, from a previous life. And you want to call this a human? I don't think so.
Each theory has it's problems, if you ask me. But to say one doesn't have anything to do with the other, well, that is OK by me if that is how you see it. But both believe that Jesus is someone other than a natural-born-son-of-his-father (who just happens to be God).
IMO,
MandyThe real issue is that scripture teaches that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and when he died here on earth he returned to that glory. It doesn't say that he entered into that glory for the first time.
He is also the offspring of David. But he is also the root.
He came down from Heaven and Jesus even says “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen”.
For me it is a matter of believing what is written rather than twisting that which is written to fit a predefined theology. If a scripture doesn't make sense to me, or contradicts what I may believe about something, then I do not ignore it or change its meaning. I believe it is better for me to change than try and change that which is inspired by God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06) Hi 745
My friend, did you even bother to click on the link I gave?
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1860
Is 1:18 is a person that post on this sight and he explains Zech 14 very well.
No, I didn't. My bad.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Can you show me where the “Eternal Spirit” of Jesus died? It was his flesh, his body that died as the sacrifice.Can you show me where it says that at before his resurrection, Jesus was eternal?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Jesus said…And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn 11:26)
Paul said…
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8)
Obviously Jesus is talking about after the resurrection, when we put on immortality, because if we are still in the flesh, we will surely die, of course except for those who while still alive, are changed into Immortal spirit at his coming….
1CORINTHIANS 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.As for what paul was talking about, if you die, you are dead, and know not a thing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), they return to dust and await the resurrection like everybody else. You very next waking moment is at this time, in the presence of God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Do you think that Jesus had the same “Eternal life” that he gives us when we are born again? If so, according to Jn 11:26 he would never die!Most people think we are born again when we accept Christ, but this is not so. We are born again in the resurrection to into immortal spirit bodies…
JOHN 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the SpiritWhen you are born again, you can move like the wind, appear and disappear at will, just as Jesus did after his resurrection. While we are still flesh, we are not yet “born again”.
As for John 11:26, read the previous verse, it is talking about the resurrection…
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
So what was Jesus doing when he left the Body?For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (Or alive in the spirit, footnote in NIV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Pet 3:18-20)
did this happen while Jesus' body lay in the tomb?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06) Didn’t Jesus say…
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43
Actually, that isn't what he said, the words have been twisted around in the English to twist what he was saying, to fit the doctrine of the English translators. This is what the greek says…
CLV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.”
He isn't telling them that today they shall be with him in paradise, he was telling them, that day, as in today I'm telling you something, that they would be with him in paradise. Jesus himself didn't go to paradise that day, he went to the grave didn't he, for three days and three nights, to give the sign that he was in fact the messiah…
Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06) Quote (Ptr745 @ May 04 2008,17:23)
and we have to remember that most of what Jesus spoke were not his own words, but the words of the Father who dwelled in him through the Holy spirit…John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Is it most of what Jesus spoke that were not his own words? Or is it all that Jesus Spoke is the Fathers word? The Father says and d
oes nothing without the Son, and the Son says and does nothing without the Father. They are inseparable. Jesus is the Word that was with God and was God.Jesus was not the Lord Eternal, he was his son, his word made flesh. And the reason I said most of what Jesus said was the words of the father, is because, not everything he said would have been of spiritual things, some things would have concerned the flesh, like “may I have some water” or something similar during his life, wouldn't he, and the Lord eternal has no need of physical things, the Lord eternal was the spirit dwelling in him, just as it does in us, though Jesus had it without measure.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
In fact all things were made by and through him and without him nothing was made that was made, and he was before all things and by him all things consist, and all things are upheld by the Word of his power.That is Jesus I am speaking of.
The jesus you are speaking of is the Jesus of the English translators
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06) Quote (Ptr745 @ May 04 2008,17:23)
and Jesus didn't raise himself up, he had faith that the Father would do that for him…..Ahh! But would you say Jesus is not telling the truth?…
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I will raise it up*. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (Jn 2:19-22) Notice the language John uses, “But he spake of the temple of his body”. Jesus like all of us lived in a flesh tent.
Again, most of what Jesus said were the words of the Father, not of himself.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Could it be also that Thomas remembered his words and said, “My Lord and My God” with the definite article? (John 20:20)When Thomas said that, it was after Jesus had been resurrected, and was now Elohim, part of the spirit family of God. Notice nobody called him God before his resurrection.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Jesus also said…Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17, 18) Notice the reaction of the people to these words in John 10:19-21).
And this is exactly why we are told to search the scriptures. Read the greek, it doesn't say he will raise himself again, it it says he lays down his life, but that he will get it back again…
CLV Jn 10:17 “Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father.”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
So do you believe Luke, Paul, or Peter? Or do you believe Jesus?When you understand that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is One God, then you will be able to reconcile the scriptures and believe them all, or you will have to get the white out and blot many scriptures out that testify to this. Or you can live with contradictions.
I believe them all. There is only a contradiction when you take for granted how it is tranlsated in English. It seems it should be you getting out the whiteout, since the scriptures say over an over again that before the resurrection of Jesus, God is one, and there is none else. It doesn't say, I am one, and there are three of us, there is none else beside me, except for the other two. Now if you want to talk contradictions, that's the mother of them all, and that is the kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to believe in the trinity. God is not the author of confusion, and if there were three in one, don't you think in all the pages of scripture, the Lord eternal would have at least said this once, and not the exact opposite over and over again?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Jn 5:19)The Word was/is with God and the Word was/is God!
If Jesus was God and not only the word of God made flesh, why did he say that at all? Why would he say it they are NOT MY WORKS, they are the works of MY FATHER. If Jesus was the Father, then they would have been Jesus' works, one and the same thing, wouldn't they? Why did Jesus say this was not the case? Why did he differentiate between the two? Have a bit of a think about that, and God bless.
Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,21:57) The real issue is that scripture teaches that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and when he died here on earth he returned to that glory. It doesn't say that he entered into that glory for the first time. He is also the offspring of David. But he is also the root.
He came down from Heaven and Jesus even says “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen”.
For me it is a matter of believing what is written rather than twisting that which is written to fit a predefined theology. If a scripture doesn't make sense to me, or contradicts what I may believe about something, then I do not ignore it or change its meaning. I believe it is better for me to change than try and change that which is inspired by God.
But what you believe to be wriiten is exactly that, something that has been twisted to fit a predetermined theology, by English translators.
That is right.
There is bias and or mistakes in all translations. But to discredit the bible verses that we have regarding this glory that Jesus had before the world was, you need to provide a sound argument for each and to say what these supposed supportive scriptures are really saying with backup from the Greek?Hebrew too.
It is easy to discredit anything in the bible using your excuse. I could make the argument that the bible actually teaches there is no God, it is just that believers got a hold of it and twisted all the atheistic scriptures.
But of course you would want to see some proof of such rather than just accept me at my word. Same goes for what you said.
t8……you said that those that say that Jesus didn't preexist as a being are twisting the text, when in fact those who say that Jesus (said) he preexisted are. where did Jesus ever say he (PREEXISTED AS A BEING) in any scripture, what you and preexistence's are doing is forcing the text to sound that way, when in fact it's not their, don't you think if Jesus meant to say He preexisted as a being he would have simply said it, and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, so who's twisting the text,
Jesus could have very easily been referring to His existence in the plan and will of God, in all these texts. Preexistence's say Jesus created the world & etc, But God said He did (BY HIS SELF) and no one was with him, when He used the term (ALONE) doesn't that mean no one else was there. So who's right and which translation are you going to believe the New testament which was translated by trinitarians trying to make a point of Jesus being God or the Old testament written by the Jews long before the New Testament was written, and it's believers believed in only one God, not two or three triune anything.
This whole idea of Jesus Preexistence falls into the idea of more then one God and was a pagan influence put into in such a way to causes people to be able to force the texts and it works. You see if the water is muddy people can read into it all they want to. No where does it say Jesus Preexisted as a Being and the text should not be forced to come out that way.
IMO…………gene
Quote The real issue is that scripture teaches that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and when he died here on earth he returned to that glory. It doesn't say that he entered into that glory for the first time.
T8, I appreciate you view. Again, I believe the bible is vague and lends itself to your view and mine. The scriptures talk about 2 different “glories.” We have the glory of the “only begotten Son”, and we also have the glory of God that he will “not share with another“. So I believe there are two types of glories, if you will.Quote He is also the offspring of David. But he is also the root.
I love this passage. How can Jesus be the root of someone he is also the offspring of? God is Jesus' father and as a father, God is the source or “root” of everything. Jesus comes from God. Doesn't it stand to reason that as God's Son he would have part of his Dad in him? t8, doesn't your son have your genes/dna/attributes/nature running through him? Why should Jesus be any different? He's not. Therefore, as the offspring of David (through Mary), Jesus is also the root (because he is his Father's son – and the Father is the root of everything).Quote He came down from Heaven and Jesus even says “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen”.
It's the “before all ages' that is the debate. Jesus could have “existed” in various forms that were not physical. We are told that Jesus has his “genesis” at birth – his “beginning” at birth. We are not told of his previous life at all. We are only given verses that folks can infer belong to their various theories. They are vague. No one speaks of Jesus' previous life in the gospels. No one is aware of his previous life.Quote For me it is a matter of believing what is written rather than twisting that which is written to fit a predefined theology. If a scripture doesn't make sense to me, or contradicts what I may believe about something, then I do not ignore it or change its meaning. I believe it is better for me to change than try and change that which is inspired by God.
This is too tidy. If we would only “read what is there and don't twist it”, we will see it as they do. Of course this is silly, no disrespect intended. If it were clear, then everyone would believe the same. Boards like this one would be abandoned altogether.Changing the meaning of scripture is done by everyone. Twisting scripture is done by everyone. Everyone has their own view of things and of course the bible seems to be such a chameleon that way, that anyone can find their doctrine in it's pages – and do!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2008,04:16) You see if the water is muddy people can read into it all they want to. No where does it say Jesus Preexisted as a Being and the text should not be forced to come out that way.
I agree with you, Gene!I will go a bit further and assert that the bible is muddy water. It seems designed that way? For all kinds of theories have come from it's pages. This has allowed me to put my bible on a shelf and read it as I would any other spiritual revealed texts. Funny how God still seems to speak to me, even without the bible…..
t8 Again I agree with you and not only are there these scriptures that you gave about now He was with God our Heavenly Father, but also Col. 1:15-18 again again nobody has explain what they believe about these verses. How Jesus was the first born of all creation, how Jesus was there with the Father when they created man. Let US IN OUR IMAGE, it says in Genesis. And also that He was the firstborn of the dead. Do you believe that He was first in all, that is what is says. So that He may have PREEMINENCE IN ALL. Unless you do not understand what it means to be first in all, I guess you would not understand. Strong language you say, yes it is.
God send Him to become a Man, so He had to be somewhere. If I would say to you, I am going to send you something from Germany, you would expect something from there, would you not, so why is it that when it comes to scriptures saying that, you do not believe.
This is so ridiculous to go over and over again, with the same scriptures which you can not explain. Oh, yes it is only in His plan which also is ridiculous.
Rev.3:14 is another scripture.
Peace and Love Irene
P.S. But ofcourse I do not believe you will believe what we are saying, you have made your mind up , just like our Son with the trinity.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,19:17) Quote (seek and you will find @ May 04 2008,16:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,12:54) As I said before……the Trinity belief and preexistence share a lot in common. I wonder why that is?
Mandy! The preexisting of Jesus has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. If you believe just because it says in the beginning was the word and the word was God, that it proves the trinity. God is a title and there are many God's. Satan for one is called the God of this world.
I take the truth even from a J.W. if they can prove what they are saying is right. Or if some body believes in the trinity like W.J. If He can prove it to me, I will believe it.
One has to have an open mind, to let the Holy Spirit teach us through others. I have found that most Churches have some truths.
Peace and Love Irene
Of course I disagree.Both the trinity doctrine and the preexistence doctrines teach that Jesus is someone other than the Son of God.
Trinity says that Jesus is the second person of God, thereby equal in nature, and has been alive from the beginning. He was “incarnated” into a flesh body and called Jesus. But he was still the same “one” God. Makes no sense whatsoever. Although Keith writes pages and pages trying to do so. I admire the brother, I really do.
Preexistence (minus the trinity doctrine) says that Jesus was beget by God alone and lived in heaven until he was supernaturally placed inside a womb where he did not undergo true conception, but where the spiritual son grew side-by-side with Mary's humanity. She was a factory that popped out a “son” who had her skin on. But he was in fact, from a previous life. And you want to call this a human? I don't think so.
Each theory has it's problems, if you ask me. But to say one doesn't have anything to do with the other, well, that is OK by me if that is how you see it. But both believe that Jesus is someone other than a natural-born-son-of-his-father (who just happens to be God).
IMO,
Mandy
Mandy…..I agree with you on this….> anyway Jesus is presented other then a purely Human being, changes our perception of Him, and makes him something other then exactly like us. It's a form of separation and altered what he did and makes it less Human. God did not take a perfect super being and make Him perfect , and then say he is like us in (every) way, that would be a lie. He brought into existence through Mary, a pure flesh and blood human being who was exactly like us, and Keep him and perfected him and empowered him to over come sin. Notice it says's He (BECAME) obedient unto death, even death on the a cross. If some (BECAME) obedient they were that before or they wouldn't have (BECAME) it.peace to you and yours……………gene
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 05 2008,08:42) nobody has explain what they believe about these verses
Actually I've watched while several people have given you their understanding of the verses you keep bringing up. I know it's hard to admit, but when you are so convinced of one way, it's difficult to hear another way. But folks have definitely answered you……several times!There are different ways to view the scriptures you list.
You just don't want to hear anything different, and so you don't.
It's OK. I'm like this on the conception idea. We all have our topics where we are set and nothing can move us.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2008,10:10) God did not take a perfect super being and make Him perfect , and then say he is like us in (every) way, that would be a lie.
We are flesh and blood.
Jesus was made like us.He was conceived of a women.
He was born.But he is also a “new creation”. So this leads me to believe that while he is made like us (he was born flesh and blood), he is also different from us. After all, we have human fathers who willed us into being. Jesus did not come into the world exactly this way.
This is really the only point that you and I are slightly off on, Gene. I can see your view in scripture as I do mine. So who is to say what the clear truth is? Either way, Jesus is our brother.
He ain't heavy, he's our brother!
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