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Quote You or I play no part in our salvation and are not given any glory for our salvation, that glory belongs to God ALONE and no one else. No where in the scriptures will you fine where Jesus every said He made the right choices on his own, but gave all the glory to God the Father. Gene;
Jesus said he always did all things that pleased the Father. He showed us the meaning of faith in God and commanded us to have faith in God.
We can only glorify God for our salvation because only God can save a soul, but God tells us to perform voluntary acts to be saved. Jesus said he that endures to the end would be saved. He also said that when iniquity abounds the love of many would wax cold. Why did their love grow cold? Did God stop giving them the power to love God? These are all areas where we are accountable to God.
Paul said we must all appear at the judgment and give an account of our lives. We can't tell God that we did not obey because he failed to give us power to obey him.
The scriptures teach salvation by grace not of works. What this means is that no matter how much we do for God, we can never actually be worthy of eternal life in ourselves because eternal life is so much greater than any act we can perform for God. Hence, we can never claim a bargained for exchange for our salvation.
The good news of the gospel is God does not require a bargained for exchange for our salvation. We present ourselves to God as living sacrifices daily and by his grace grow in faith until he comes again.
It's all God's plan and all the glory is his because God made it all possible through Christ.
Take Care
Steven
Hi Steve,
It is best to strive to enter the narrow gate and to seek the rest of God[heb4]. If we are born again of water and the Spirit we have already passed from death of life and have a seat awaiting us at the wedding feast. We do not face the judgement of sheep and goats but the tribunal of Christ where our fruit is judged. It is not our works that can save us but the righteousness of Christ. Love demands we do works of love as the fruit of the Spirit.Mr.Steve ……..> If you have the spirit of God in you (It) will produce the Fruits of the Spirit in your life , Thats God working in you not your work that is being done. You seem to think you play a part in God's cleansing and profecting work that He does, if that be the case you have some what to boast about. Rom 4:4…> now to him that works the reward is not reckoned by grace but what is due. If i work at makinging myself righteous by my (Free Will ) choices, God owes it to me and i have not recieved the gift of righteousness through Faith but through works and am not relying on the creating power of My God to create me righteousness, and this cannot be true for me ” For He (God) works in me to (BOTH) Will and do (HIS) good pleasure. Now if i choose to do the will of God it's because God who indwell me causes the right Choice i made.
Tell me Mr. Smith do you believe that God (ALONE) creates righteousness , do you believe Jesus said He could do nothing of Himself, but the Father in Him does the works. I wonder if you understand the power of God to get into the mind of a person and bring about his purposes.
Jesus said unto Peter, Simon who do you say i am, Peter response , you are the Christ the Son of the living God, Jesus response blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did not reveal that unto you , but the Father in Heaven has revealed it unto , and i say unto you, you art Peter (in other words Jesus was saying he reconized who Peter was also) , and upon this Rock, i shall build the church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Question, who was the Rock?, the Rock was the power of God to reveal truth in the mind of a person and this power was what was going to build the church. I see (NO) Free Will Here, only the power of God at work in the minds of people.
IMHO…………gene
Hi GB,
You say
” Question, who was the Rock?, the Rock was the power of God to reveal truth in the mind of a person and this power was what was going to build the church.”I think we should look to scripture for the meanings.
Rock=scriptural truth
We too are living stonesps
Luke 6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.pps
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Eph 2
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I think this is the more likely meaning as Peter was a living stone.
I find it interesting the tread is about the preexisting of Jesus and all you talk about is how you are saved.
Do all of you deny these scriptures that prove that Jesus did preexsist? What do these mean to you? Was Jesus created before the world began? Was He the firsborn of all creation? Did He have the glory with the Father before the world was? Did He have preeminence? Did God send His Son into the world, and where did the Father send the Son from?
Is anybody going to address these scriptures?
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 07 2008,13:56) Hi Mrs,
Not created but begotten of God in the beginning and through him all things were created..
That is not what it says. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. Yes and by Him all things were created. Through Him and for Him. He was first in all. And first born of the dead, so in all He will have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all.
You only took one sripture what about the rest and why is it so hard for all to understand that Jesus preexsisted. And what difference does it make to you if He did? Begotten means what? That He came forth from the Father. He was the only begotten Son of God, while we are the adopted Sons of God.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14 These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
Preace and Love Mrs.Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 07 2008,17:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 07 2008,13:56) Hi Mrs,
Not created but begotten of God in the beginning and through him all things were created..
That is not what it says. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. Yes and by Him all things were created. Through Him and for Him. He was first in all. And first born of the dead, so in all He will have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all.
You only took one sripture what about the rest and why is it so hard for all to understand that Jesus preexsisted. And what difference does it make to you if He did? Begotten means what? That He came forth from the Father. He was the only begotten Son of God, while we are the adopted Sons of God.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14 These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
Preace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs,
Why do you always misunderstand and think I disagree with you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,05:50) Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 07 2008,17:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 07 2008,13:56) Hi Mrs,
Not created but begotten of God in the beginning and through him all things were created..
That is not what it says. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. Yes and by Him all things were created. Through Him and for Him. He was first in all. And first born of the dead, so in all He will have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all.
You only took one sripture what about the rest and why is it so hard for all to understand that Jesus preexsisted. And what difference does it make to you if He did? Begotten means what? That He came forth from the Father. He was the only begotten Son of God, while we are the adopted Sons of God.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14 These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
Preace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs,
Why do you always misunderstand and think I disagree with you?
Sorry Sir, but it did not sound like that, that you agreed. I am happy you do and glad you see the truth.
I have to laugh tho when you say always.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote Hi Steve,
It is best to strive to enter the narrow gate and to seek the rest of God[heb4]. If we are born again of water and the Spirit we have already passed from death of life and have a seat awaiting us at the wedding feast. We do not face the judgement of sheep and goats but the tribunal of Christ where our fruit is judged. It is not our works that can save us but the righteousness of Christ. Love demands we do works of love as the fruit of the Spirit.Nick;
If you study the word judgment in scripture you'll find that it speaks of all of the various aspects apprehension to sentencing and execution. We break the term down much more today.
When Christ said we have passed from death unto life, he is referring to eternal life, in the event of death of our body. He is not saying that God will not continue to chastise his children to cause them to comply with scripture.
We are the sheep if we follow Christ. The goats are the unbelievers that will be damned.
Jesus taught his disciples to be accounted worthy to escape. There is no automatic escape just because we are saved. That is heresy. It is the lie that is lulling the church to sleep, causing the church to believe that the Day of the Lord is not an issue.
Mathew was a tax collector for the Romans. He knew all about coming to collect unexpectedly. That may be why he so absorbed all the parables that teach Christ will come to his church in an hour that they would not be looking for him. There is a judgment at the time in which it is decided who is taken and who is left, who is a wise virgin and who is a foolish virgin. This is the judgment that is at hand. It's not the Judgment Seat of Christ or the sheep and goats when he comes in his glory.
Steven
Hi Lightenup:
There is a lot of material to cover in this thread, and so, I will give my understanding here so that you won't have to read all of this at least not to get my understanding.
If Jesus pre-existed his virgin birth, I believe that we can safely say that he did not pre-exist as a man because the scripture states:
Quote Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Quote Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made F17 he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Quote 1 Co 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul From these scriptures, I believe that we can safely say that Adam or man that God created out of the dust of the earth was the first man and there was no man before him. Do you agree?
The following scripture says that Eve is the mother of all humanity.
Quote Gen 3:20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. And so, unless you can show me somewhere in the OT where Jesus existed as a man, I believe that we can conclude that he did not exist as a man before he was born of the virgin Mary.
And so, if he pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary, in what form did he exist?
Jesus is now a man who is a living person who has a body, soul, and a spirit. Did the body exist before his birth from a virgin? I believe that we have already answered that question. Did the soul exist before his virgin birth? It is by the breath of God that man becomes a living soul, and so, I believe that since we concluded that Jesus did not exist as a man that the soul could not have pre-existed his virgin birth. Did his spirit pre-exist his virgin birth. Yes, in that God knew what he would teach his Son in beginning, but Jesus had to learn to apply that Word to his daily life. The concept of conceiving a Son was with God in the beginning, and so the following scripture states:
Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And so, the scripture states:
Quote John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
It was God's plan in the beginning to make man in His own image, and Jesus is the express image of his person. He is the finished product that God had forseen from the beginning.
Quote 7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Quote 1 Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Quote 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
The following verse in the context that I have posted above means that Jesus is the man born again from the dead:
Quote Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Quote who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead Quote 2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. You quoted the following verse to justify your belief that Jesus pre-existed before he was born of the virgin birth:
Quote John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. First, in this verse the Jews understood him to say that he had seen Abraham, but he did not say that at all. He said,
Quote Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad God had promised Abraham that through his seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed, and so, Abraham believed God, and saw through the eye of faith the manifistation God's promise which was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus. The statement by Jesus saying, “
Quote Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. to me has been explained by the following verse:
Quote : 1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, And this is my assessment also of the other verses that you quoted saying that Jesus existed prior to his birth of the virgin Mary. He was foreordained. God had forseen from the beginning that he would conceive a Son, and that he would send him into the world to be the propitiation for the sins of humanity and to show by the example of his life how man was to live his life in order to be in right standing with God.
God Bless
Hi 94,
The heavenly beings existed before the earth was made and rejoiced to see it.Jb 38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So your argument about the non existence of the Word with God in the beginning lacks substance.
Hi 94,
Heb 1
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image[5481] of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Number 5481
Transliteration:
charakter {khar-ak-tare'}
Word Origin:
from the same as 5482
TDNT:
9:418,1308
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
express image 1Total: 1
Definition:
the instrument used for engraving or carving
the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimileSo it was not the human being of Christ that was the image
but he was the perfect reflection of the nature of God as shown through his vessel surely?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,13:15) Hi 94, Heb 1
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image[5481] of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Number 5481
Transliteration:
charakter {khar-ak-tare'}
Word Origin:
from the same as 5482
TDNT:
9:418,1308
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
express image 1Total: 1
Definition:
the instrument used for engraving or carving
the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimileSo it was not the human being of Christ that was the image
but he was the perfect reflection of the nature of God as shown through his vessel surely?
Hi Nick:The following verse shows that it is the life that he lived and lives that makes him the express image of God's person. God is a Spirit of Love.
Quote John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Quote Joh 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.God Bless
Hi 94,
I disagree.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.[2Cor5.19]
I believe the nature and powers of God were shown in the face of Christ.
He did not become like God by his striving but his vessel was overflowed with God by the Spirit.2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,15:19) He did not become like God by his striving but his vessel was overflowed with God by the Spirit.
Would it be fair to say that he became like God through choice, because he could have chosen otherwise.He was tempted like us in every way, (including Adam) and he didn't sin. He always did God's will even in place of his own.
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