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T8……> I think the senareo of Adam not sinning lacks understanding, Let me explain what i mean.
First of all it was impossible for Adam not to have sinned, God know all a long He would sin. Doesn't it say it is not within a man to direct His paths, and again the carnel mind is not subject to laws of God neither can be.
Jesus was the second Adam born with Holy Spirit, He had within Him the Spirit to guide His mind. That was the difference between the two Adams, one had the Holy Spirit the other didn't. And the first Adam, not having the Holy Spirit to guide Him could not have never sinned, In fact God used a catalest i.e.(SATAN) to speed up the process, It would have happened anyway, it just might have taken thousands of years to happen so God introduced a Catalest.
The whole picture of salvation is the need to have God in Us, So we have the gudience in Us i.e. Holy Spirit, and thats what Jesus Had to guide Him. Didn't He say the Father in me (HE) doth the works, And that he could do nothing of Himself.
I have presented Scripture showing that God Said , He created the Heavens (ALONE) and spread out the Earth by (HIMSELF) Now if you believe scripture then why say He did it by anyone else or through anyone else.
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.
And another thing, Jesus is called the First (BORN) of Many brethern and He is the first created Son of God also, But not the only created Son of God. When Jesus was on the earth He was the only Begotten Son , but when the day of Pentecost came that changed, because there were many more begotten of God, when they recieved the Holy Spirit . Then Jesus was the first born into the Kingdom of God. And He will continue to be that until the reserection, and even those born are concedered First born into the Kingdom also being of the first fruits of the Spirit,along with Jesus.
IMO…….gene
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Nov. 01 2007,11:04) Quote Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Was THIS Adams spirit, come to do his will)? Charity;
We know that it was 'not' Adam's spirit or Adam because Adam wasn't involved with creation. That is, there is no scripture that says by him the world was made and without him was not any thing made that was made. Those verses in John are only attributed to Christ. Also in Colossians and Hebrews. John identified this man that made all things as the Son of God John 1:34.
Take Care.
Steven
thankyou Mr steve, GOOD NEWS 2Sa 22:17 He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2007,13:53) T8……> I think the senareo of Adam not sinning lacks understanding, Let me explain what i mean. First of all it was impossible for Adam not to have sinned, God know all a long He would sin. Doesn't it say it is not within a man to direct His paths, and again the carnel mind is not subject to laws of God neither can be.
Jesus was the second Adam born with Holy Spirit, He had within Him the Spirit to guide His mind. That was the difference between the two Adams, one had the Holy Spirit the other didn't. And the first Adam, not having the Holy Spirit to guide Him could not have never sinned, In fact God used a catalest i.e.(SATAN) to speed up the process, It would have happened anyway, it just might have taken thousands of years to happen so God introduced a Catalest.
The whole picture of salvation is the need to have God in Us, So we have the gudience in Us i.e. Holy Spirit, and thats what Jesus Had to guide Him. Didn't He say the Father in me (HE) doth the works, And that he could do nothing of Himself.
I have presented Scripture showing that God Said , He created the Heavens (ALONE) and spread out the Earth by (HIMSELF) Now if you believe scripture then why say He did it by anyone else or through anyone else.
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.
And another thing, Jesus is called the First (BORN) of Many brethern and He is the first created Son of God also, But not the only created Son of God. When Jesus was on the earth He was the only Begotten Son , but when the day of Pentecost came that changed, because there were many more begotten of God, when they recieved the Holy Spirit . Then Jesus was the first born into the Kingdom of God. And He will continue to be that until the reserection, and even those born are concedered First born into the Kingdom also being of the first fruits of the Spirit,along with Jesus.
IMO…….gene
GBYou say…
Quote
Jesus was the second Adam born with Holy Spirit, He had within Him the Spirit to guide His mind. That was the difference between the two Adams, one had the Holy Spirit the other didn't. And the first Adam, not having the Holy Spirit to guide Him could not have never sinned, In fact God used a catalest i.e.(SATAN) to speed up the process, It would have happened anyway, it just might have taken thousands of years to happen so God introduced a Catalest.So in other words God made the first Adam incomplete and purposly caused Adam to fall (When all he needed was the Spirit) and allowed all this human suffering, evil, and death to come into the world so he could bring Jesus in the world, another man but this time give him the Spirit to die for us, and then give it all to Jesus?
I dont think so.
You have the Spirit dont you GB? Do you still sin?
If Jesus was like you in every way then what kept him from sinning?
GB
You say…
Quote
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.Only a Trinitarian view can solve this one!
[So in other words God made the first Adam incomplete and purposely caused Adam to fall (When all he needed was the Spirit) and allowed all this human suffering, evil, and death to come into the world so he could bring Jesus in the world, another man but this time give him the Spirit to die for us, and then give it all to Jesus?
I don't think so.
You have the Spirit don't you GB? Do you still sin?
If Jesus was like you in every way then what kept him from sinning?
QUOTE]
Very good point, Jesus was born of the Father and therefore has all the truths already in His mind that when He became flesh, He would not Sin, or I belief could not Sin, He had Gods Spirit in full strength. He had to be like that to save mankind. He was tempted in every way we were, tho. God so loved the World that HE SEND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH, BELIEVETN IN HIM. Notice send His Son, send Him from where? He was with the Father before the World was it says.
Peace and LOVE Mrs.
Quote GB You say…Quote
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.
Only a Trinitarian view can solve this one!
GB;
The doctrine of the trinity says that Christ and the Father are eternally equal and co-existent. That contradicts the scriptures and creates confusion. Moreover, some trinitarians say that Christ did not pre-exist, then in the next breath say he is eternally co-existent with the Father. Their own doctrine contradicts itself.
Christ said that he could do nothing of himself but worked by the power given to him of God so he gave complete glory to God the Father. Every time he declared that God was his Father he declared the inherent truth that his origin was from God. God gives his power to his sons just as Christ gave the authority to his disciples to heal the sick and cast out devils. It's knowing where the power comes from that glories God.
Quote 2Sa 22:17 He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.Charity;
Wonderful truths. I like the verse in psalms you quoted to (40:8) that is quoted by Paul in Hebrews of Christ.
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Nov. 02 2007,06:49) Quote GB You say…Quote
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.
Only a Trinitarian view can solve this one!
GB;
The doctrine of the trinity says that Christ and the Father are eternally equal and co-existent. That contradicts the scriptures and creates confusion. Moreover, some trinitarians say that Christ did not pre-exist, then in the next breath say he is eternally co-existent with the Father. Their own doctrine contradicts itself.
Christ said that he could do nothing of himself but worked by the power given to him of God so he gave complete glory to God the Father. Every time he declared that God was his Father he declared the inherent truth that his origin was from God. God gives his power to his sons just as Christ gave the authority to his disciples to heal the sick and cast out devils. It's knowing where the power comes from that glories God.
mr steveDid Yeshua have flesh in heaven before he was born of Mary?
Was he a man with God in the beginning?
If you believe this then you also believe that God made all things through a man.
However John 1:1-3 cotradicts you for it says…
Jn 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Do you notice the… without him was **not any thing made** that was made.
Did he create himself? For nothing came into existence without him!
He was before all things and by him all things exist! Col 1:17
Why do you not accept the following scriptures that confirm Jn 1:1? Why do you twist them to fit into your Arian belief?
Like Henotheism and Unitarianism you are teaching a man made doctrine.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Job 9:6
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.The scriptures above need no special interpretation, for they bear witness for themselves.
Matt 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2007,10:29) Did Yeshua have flesh in heaven before he was born of Mary? Was he a man with God in the beginning?
If you believe this then you also believe that God made all things through a man.
Marred in countenance. “thoughts”All the Marred clay creation lived between Adam and the first born of the new creation, born of a woman, found faithful, loved by God, cursed to return to the dust, any Preexistance,Flesh life before the womb of Mary was cursed to dust, corruption, having only the covenent of sure mercy, that their soul would live and walk the earth again, In prepared bodies, after the messiah, whom also prevails to prolong his life.
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
The prophets of the OT, teach quite a different gospel to that which we have all been associated with.
He is a Servant of God, first, unto exalted to to be on very high, His soul is made and offering, to justify many, not all? Elijah leads his way, as John the baptist, under the Law of the gospal gravity and preexistance, born of woman, made again seeming good, from the potters hand.Isa 52:13 ¶ Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
His counternance, Marred more than the Sons Of Men, (Damaged Identiy?) seen by looking backwards to the fathers
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay (From dust) was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
First fruits, first born
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of “them that slept”.(perished) For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
To All…..> there seams to be some indeference to me saying Adam could have never of not sinned. One thing we need to think about is why would God ever allow evil at all. Tell me how could you know what evil was if there was no Good and How could you know what good was if there was no evil. God could have made man where they would never sin Just by programing thier minds like the rest of the animal kingdom.
But our Father did not want robots, he wanted individual thinking childern, So He gave us each an individual soul with our own personality. Because He wanted to have a special relationship with Us. And He wanted us to be a image of Him to reflect Him in our lives, So inorder for that to happen man had to be exposed to Good and Evil.
Remember when He said Look man has become as we are to know good and evil. The word Know here means more than Just knowledge, it means a initmate experience with. Why?, how else could we come to really know right from wrong, with out experiencing it.
Man is a work in progress, we are not complete when we are born to live in a real relationship with God because to WILL is present in Us, and until our Wills are subdude we are unable to have a right relationship with the Father, The man Jesus subjected His Will to the Will of the Father, and told Us we need to Put our Wills to death also. This is done by following God”s Will just like Jesus Did. And the Father Gives us His Spirit to help us Do it, Just like He did Jesus also.
The only difference between us and Jesus is that Jesus was never infected with Sin as we were because the Father kept Him, He was you might say sealed by the Father and was kept from sinning by the Spirit that was in Him. The same Spirit we also recieve when were baptised with it.
Every thing that was done from the beginning of the creation to the end is done by ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. And it wasn't by Jesus the Second ADAM. It was all by His God and our God His Father and our Father.
To credit anyone else for doing it is Idolatry. Preesistenest and Trinitarianest both advance Forms of Idolatry.
IMO………..>gene
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,19:27) Mandy Me scolding you? Well I could be your Mother. I just feel so strongly about this, how Jesus and the Father created us. And other scriptures. I know others don't agree either, but that is alright. I do not mean to be rude, so if you think I was, I apologise.
I love you Daughter and all of you, I think I am going stop at this debating, I am not good at it. I just wish Jesus would come and straighten everything out. Lord Jesus come……..Peace and Love Mrs.
Sister,No, I was just teasing you when I said I felt like you were scolding me!
I don't think we debate as much as we just share what is on our hearts and what our convictions are – and you are wonderful at doing that. Never leave, OK? I would miss you too much.
I'm feeling better today. I am taking a pill tonight and going for a blood test in the morning…..this pill is supposed to show them something? Who knows? I'm trusting the Lord and my life is in his hands. How are you?
Love, Mandy
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2007,03:51) GB You say…
Quote
And what do you do with scripture that say's God gives His Glory to No Man. But preexistenest give the Glory of creation to the Man Jesus. But Jesus said if He Glorified Himself His glory was nothing.Only a Trinitarian view can solve this one!
Jesus didn't have glory as God, he had glory as the one and only Son of God. Two different glories…..Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 02 2007,06:04) I belief could not Sin, He had Gods Spirit in full strength. He had to be like that to save mankind. He was tempted in every way we were, tho.
What good is it for someone to be tempted when they cannot feel completely the weight and pull of temptation. Or better still, the option to give in to the temptation?Right one Mandy the Son of God is second in command and is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords and deserves all Honor and Glory, but all Respect and Honor and Glory goes to our Heavenly Father, so you can say that the glory that Jesus has is different from the Fathers. We do not worship Jesus, we go through Jesus to go to the throne of God to ask for the forgiveness of Sin or anything that we desire and need in our lives. The Father is the sustainer of us all. He is all powerful.
Teasing me, Ha your louse.
Mandy I am glad that you are feeling better, I hope and pray everything goes well with you today. It is 12:30 A.M. here.
Peace and Love always Irene Wow, you're a night owl like I am. I need to start getting in the habit of going to bed earlier. It's hard though with this insomnia. I'm praying it goes away with the other symtoms I'm experiencing from the brain tumor.
Glad you're here…..
MandyMandy Yes I am night Owl, age I think has to do with it. But I hope you get sleep somehow. Do you sleep during the day? Can you take a nap? I sleep when ever I can. But you have Children and a husband to take care of, so don't over do it. Sleep when ever you can, you need it. And good luck for today, my Love and Prayers go with you
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2007,03:51) Only a Trinitarian view can solve this one!
Yeah right.Next I suppose you will say that Jesus and the Apostles were Trinitarians.
Well Trinitarians owe there existence to Binitarians, who's foundation was a certain creed before the Holy Spirit was tacked on to create a Trinitarian creed.
And before Binitarians, the important thing was that there was one God.
That is why we need to reject the effect that paganism has had and embrace only the truth. This requires a rejection of much baggage/tradition that has been collected through out the centuries.
We need to be pure and holy and let scripture teach and the Spirit teach is the true doctrine of Christ.
If any of us are noble, then we should judge what teachers are saying to see if such things are written. If not, then those who teach that which is NOT written should be held accountable. That includes you WJ.
You teach people things that are not scriptural, rather the traditions of men. You should know that teachers will be judged more severely. You cannot make the excuse that you didn't know this.
I pray that people will be able to discern the truth. But God will hand each person over to the desire of their heart, whether that is good or bad.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2007,13:53) First of all it was impossible for Adam not to have sinned, God know all a long He would sin. Doesn't it say it is not within a man to direct His paths, and again the carnel mind is not subject to laws of God neither can be.
If that is the case, then it means that Adam didn't have free will. He was destined to sin whether he wanted to or not.So when God said “Be fruitful and multiply”, he must have been thinking something like “yeah right, sure you will”.
But this is another topic of course.
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