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IM4truth……> if you start with Prov 8:1- 22 it's plain that Wisdom is an atribute and is portrayed as a women not a man. Also it says wisdom gives understanding to men. No where does it say wisdom is the man Jesus, or the son of man . You are forcing the text to mean what you want it to. How can it be used as some type of proof of Jesus' preexistence.
Where does it say Jesus was born before the world was. While He might have been in the plan of God before the world was He was not born .
The word (BORN) means through a BERTH PROCESS. That happened when Jesus was (BORN). If it said He was created before the world was you might have a point, but it dosn't say that. Jesus came into existence through a creative berth process, i.e. born. And He then became the first(BORN) Son of God, not the first created son of God, like other heavenly beings were. Even Adam and eve was not Born but were created beings, Adam himself is called a son of God also.
Because Jesus was (born of a women) and (begotten of God) He became the First(born) Son of God. And at that time the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God untill the giving of the Holy Spirit and From that time He became not the only, but the first begotten son of God. The first begotten of (MANY) brethern.
We need to not steal glory that belongs to the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD. Jesus gave all the glory to the Father because it was the Father doing it all.
IMO……..>gene
Gen I did not start out with Proverb. You did not read the whole article then.
I started out with
Colossians 1:15 ” ;Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of thew dead, that in all He may have preeminence.
Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the creation of God..”
What else can you say about these verses then what it says. Do you have any Idea how many times I have written these scriptures down for YOU, PLURAL. What I cant understand that you all are denying them. What else could they say, but what they do say. Does it say the firstborn of all creatures? yes or no? yes.
John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. Your problem is because it says God. Well if you would understand that God is a title and that the word is not the Almighty God, because that would contradict Ephesians 4:4-6.
Gen. 1:26 Let us make man in our image. Who is us and our image? Let me answer that it was the Father and the Son. He was not an Angel, because He created all including the invisible angels. He was brought forth by the Father, how that was not revealed. Nothing is impossible with God.
People this is the last time I am going to write this scriptures down.
Steve and t8 have given you also good post about this subject. Why you don't want to belief this, I do not understand.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 30 2007,14:50) Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,05:08) Mandy How can that be. In col. 1:15-18 It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. That means that He was there. Whether He was called the Word or the God Spoken Word or just God, what difference that does make, He was there,.We know that He was not the Almighty God, the Father is greater then the Son, is and always will be. But Col. tells us that He was there, before the world was. Otherwise scriptures would contradict, and that I do not belief it does.
Col. 1:15,16,17,18
Rev.3:14
Gen.1:26
Prov. 8:22-30 read it in the James Moffatt it explains it better.
Let us make man in our image. He was with the Father there.
I just can't understand how you go around these scriptures that are so clear cut. How can you read anything else out of it. If you do, you are adding to it. And you should know diffreent, Mandy.
No offence.
Peace and Love
Hi Irene,I just got home from running errands and I'm checking in real quick and then I'll respond later tonight in more depth.
But I wanted to say that there are TWO CREATIONS. One will pass away and the the other one will stand until eternity. Could it be that Jesus is the “firstborn” of the SECOND creation (the new birth)? I think he is. He is the firstfruit from the dead and we will follow.
Now you're catching on
. The New Testament means more than just a new covenant, it also means a new creation!Quote Posted: Oct. 31 2007,13:34 ——————————————————————————–
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 30 2007,14:50)
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,05:08)
Mandy How can that be. In col. 1:15-18 It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. That means that He was there. Whether He was called the Word or the God Spoken Word or just God, what difference that does make, He was there,.We know that He was not the Almighty God, the Father is greater then the Son, is and always will be. But Col. tells us that He was there, before the world was. Otherwise scriptures would contradict, and that I do not belief it does.
Col. 1:15,16,17,18
Rev.3:14
Gen.1:26
Prov. 8:22-30 read it in the James Moffatt it explains it better.
Let us make man in our image. He was with the Father there.
I just can't understand how you go around these scriptures that are so clear cut. How can you read anything else out of it. If you do, you are adding to it. And you should know different, Mandy.
No offence.
Peace and LoveHi Irene,
I just got home from running errands and I'm checking in real quick and then I'll respond later tonight in more depth.
But I wanted to say that there are TWO CREATIONS. One will pass away and the the other one will stand until eternity. Could it be that Jesus is the “firstborn” of the SECOND creation (the new birth)? I think he is. He is the first fruit from the dead and we will follow.
Now you're catching on . The New Testament means more than just a new covenant, it also means a new creation!
That is what we should know, but that is not what we are discussing
Peace and Love Mrs.
Colossians 1:15 ” ;Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of thew dead, that in all He may have preeminence.
Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the creation of God..”
What else can you say about these verses then what it says. Do you have any Idea how many times I have written these scriptures down for YOU, PLURAL. What I cant understand that you all are denying them. What else could they say, but what they do say. Does it say the firstborn of all creatures? yes or no? yes.
John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. Your problem is because it says God. Well if you would understand that God is a title and that the word is not the Almighty God, because that would contradict Ephesians 4:4-6.
Gen. 1:26 Let us make man in our image. Who is us and our image? Let me answer that it was the Father and the Son. He was not an Angel, because He created all including the invisible angels. He was brought forth by the Father, how that was not revealed. Nothing is impossible with God.
People this is the last time I am going to write this scriptures down.
Steve and t8 have given you also good post about this subject. Why you don't want to belief this, I do not understand.[/QUOTE]
That is what we are discussing
Peace and Love Mrs.
Im4truth……> if you finish reading Rev 3:14 to the end you will find Its the SPIRIT speaking. Dosn't it say who so ever has ears to hear let Him hear what the Sprit say's to the Chruches. Your confusing the Spirit of God with Jesus the person.
And again you are giving credit to Jesus and not the The Father who was giving Jesus the word's to speak to the churches. Remember Revalations is what God Gave to Jesus to Show unto His servants the things to come.
And as far as the Image of God goes God created all mankind to be comformed to His Image, only Jesus was the first to obtain it. God was showing Us that the only way we could be in His true Image was if He came and indwelled us as He did His First Born and begotten son Jesus. And this was God's plan all along from the foundations of the world, It was (ALL) the Father's doing from the Start to the Finish and No one else's.
So who gets (ALL THE CREDIT) it's the FATHER ONLY.And start reading From Col 1:12 and you will find its the Father thats being referenced. The word (for ) Col 1:15 should be rendered (BECAUSE) another word BY God all things were created in Heaven and Earth. Again your misapplying the text.
Why try to give creative Power to anyone but The Our Heavenly Father. Jesus never said He created any thing, but said He could do (NOTHING) of His self. But your saying He did it all. Interesting?
.IMO…..> gene
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 31 2007,13:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 30 2007,14:50) Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,05:08) Mandy How can that be. In col. 1:15-18 It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. That means that He was there. Whether He was called the Word or the God Spoken Word or just God, what difference that does make, He was there,.We know that He was not the Almighty God, the Father is greater then the Son, is and always will be. But Col. tells us that He was there, before the world was. Otherwise scriptures would contradict, and that I do not belief it does.
Col. 1:15,16,17,18
Rev.3:14
Gen.1:26
Prov. 8:22-30 read it in the James Moffatt it explains it better.
Let us make man in our image. He was with the Father there.
I just can't understand how you go around these scriptures that are so clear cut. How can you read anything else out of it. If you do, you are adding to it. And you should know diffreent, Mandy.
No offence.
Peace and Love
Hi Irene,I just got home from running errands and I'm checking in real quick and then I'll respond later tonight in more depth.
But I wanted to say that there are TWO CREATIONS. One will pass away and the the other one will stand until eternity. Could it be that Jesus is the “firstborn” of the SECOND creation (the new birth)? I think he is. He is the firstfruit from the dead and we will follow.
Now you're catching on. The New Testament means more than just a new covenant, it also means a new creation!
Praise God Mandy… KejonnThe New testament is trying TO tell us how!… perception …AND its merchandise of the Good news…and how the New creation shall fill the earth, and subdue the earth!
All are born again of a good seed or corruptible seed.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Not so much as anything you can do of yourself, but more so believing what has already been done
To Rise the dead, the great commission, by faith
Love God with all your heart and Mind
charityQuote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,10:15) That was not wisdom. Wisdom is what a person has, not is. I know that is what you have said before.
Actually I've never said this before. You must be confusing me with someone else. I know I've never said it because I don't believe it's trueI don't think I got a response on this:
Ok, I looked up that word myself. I'm not used to strong's concordance, but it is #3784 for those who care or know what that means.
Hbr 2:17 Wherefore [3606] in [2596] all things [3956] it behoved him [3784] (5707) to be made like [3666] (5683) unto [his] brethren [80],
That number or word apparently means:
1. to owe
1. to owe money, be in debt for
1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill dueHow can a plan “owe” or how could a plan be “behooved” to do this?
A person can be obligated or behooved to do something.
this is the way NAS translates that word in various places:
had 1,
have 1,
indebted 2,
must 1,
obligated 3,
ought 15,
owe 4,
owed 4,
owes 1,
responsible 1,
should 2And, here's how the KJ translates that word in various places:
ought 15,
owe 7,
be bound 2,
be (one's) duty 2,
be a debtor 1,
be guilty 1,
be indebted 1,
miscellaneous 7How can a plan “ought” to do anything? How can it be obliged or behooved to do something? How can it be bound or responsible to do anything?
A person can be any of these things. A plan cannot.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 31 2007,05:08) How can you read anything else out of it. If you do, you are adding to it. And you should know diffreent, Mandy.
I feel like I've just been scolded by my mother! Sis, Irene – I am not adding to anything. However, I do have a different opinion than you do. There are many ways to interpret the scriptures that you have been faithful to recount for us, with all due respect. That is why we keep discussing the same topics over and over again…..the scriptures lend themselves to various view points.
I'm getting a cold tonight and so I'm not up for lengthly explainations, however it looks like Gene, KJ, and Charity have added some good things to your questions of me. I apologize for not being on top of things tonight but I'm worn out and very tired. I think I will read a little here and then turn in.
Hope you're feeling better, Sis. Rest easy tonight.
Love,
MandyMandy Me scolding you? Well I could be your Mother. I just feel so strongly about this, how Jesus and the Father created us. And other scriptures. I know others don't agree either, but that is alright. I do not mean to be rude, so if you think I was, I apologise.
I love you Daughter and all of you, I think I am going stop at this debating, I am not good at it. I just wish Jesus would come and straighten everything out. Lord Jesus come……..Peace and Love Mrs.
Mandy I hope you will feel better. I have a Doctors appointment today. Have been praying for you.
Love Irene
Morning song
Sign of the potter and the clay
Zec 2:10
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.Preexistence..Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
Hbr 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.My signature scripture
O Israel so many Can you not perceive the days and times, least you look back and see what he has doneDavid made of marred clay.said this of himself….concerning his resurection from the dead.. Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Pauls plee…Act 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? (Clay Marred re fromed}
…Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Quote Why try to give creative Power to anyone but The Our Heavenly Father. Jesus never said He created any thing, but said He could do (NOTHING) of His self. No, Jesus didn't create the world by himself, he did it with his Father.
What the scriptures say is that the Word was with God and was God. Then it says all things were made by “him” and without him was not any thing made that was made. In short, God didn't make any thing without Jesus.
Then John says he came to bear witness of the Light. Then of the Light he says, “He” was in the world and the world was made by “him” and the world knew him not. Then John says he came to bear witness of the Light. This person he calls the Light is the one he said was involved in creation. He says that those that received him and believed on his name (the name of Jesus the Son of God) he gave power to become Sons of God.
When he finally sees Jesus he declares that this is the one of whom I spake, “he” it is who is preferred before me because he was before me. John is declaring that this person is the Lamb of God and then goes on record that this person is the Son of God. Andrew who heard John speak then left John the Baptist and followed Jesus and found his own brother Peter and said we have found the one of whom Moses, the Law and the Prophets did write about, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.John 1:1 does not tell us that the Word is Jesus. You have to follow the chapter through to understand that truth. John 1 really doesn't even reveal how the Son of God and God exist together; the remainder of John, particularly in chapters 5 through 8 is where Jesus reveals the nature and the relationship with God his Father.
For instance, God gives all to the Son. The Son can do nothing of himself. The Son lives by the Father. Jesus describes a relationship with his Father whereby his Father gives him his very life. Jesus says he has come in the name of his Father, indicating that he can only speak because the Father has given him the authority to do so. Jesus said the Father sent me, indicating that the Father is pre-eminent in their relationship. Jesus of course is emphatic that he came down from heaven and will return to where he descended. After his resurrection he says he is returning to his God and Father who is also our God and Father.
These remarkable truths give us insight into the relationship of Christ with his Father that are not characterized in scriptures like John 1:1 and John 20:28.If God the Father is the God of Christ as Christ says, then his very origin can only be from God. Paul writes this over and over in the epistles, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul never says blessed be the God Jesus Christ, but always shows the Father is the Father of Christ and his God.
Now these truths do not unfold to a believer overnight so if there are those who like to proclaim Jesus is God we should succor them and pray for their growth. Paul said when I was a child I space as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things. God bless the children, they are so dear in God's eyes. We should be praying for all the babes in Christ to grow, as I'm sure Thomas did and realized that Jesus was the Son of God and had his life from God. Indeed, all Christ had to give us came from his Father.
Thank you Father for giving your all to Christ so he could give it to us, too.
Quote Where does it say Jesus was born before the world was. While He might have been in the plan of God before the world was He was not born . Do you see any of the apostles making the claims of Christ? We existed in the foreknowledge of God, but do the apostles say they came down from heaven, or they were returning to where they were before? Paul says we see through a glass darkly. Jesus says I know from whence I came and that's where I'm returning. He could return there if he wasn't there prior. Let me make a suggestion to you. Suspend your current belief and ask God to reveal this truth to you by his word if what I am asserting is true. If you still see nothing in the word after a few days of study I'll be surprised.
Lets not dismiss the truth merely because there are similarities in doctrines we know are false. For instance, I'm sure you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The trinitarians do, too. So it's how you believe in them is what makes the difference. Just give it a chance. I sense you are sincere.
Take care
Steven
The other point is that to those who believe that Christ is a man who started his existence in the womb of Mary, then it causes this confusion.
God created all things through and for Christ.
God creates Adam.
Adam falls.
Jesus comes as the Christ and the second Adam.Now what would happen if Adam hadn't sinned?
Then there would be no need for a second Adam and why would Jesus be needed at all?Then you have to ask yourself why God would make all things with his son in mind, and then create Adam before him.
The only conclusion would be that God intended all things for Jesus, but in the interim, he created a son called Adam and predestined Adam to fall, in order to keep his plan for creating all things with Christ in mind.
Not that this reasoning proves that he pre-existed. No there are enough scriptures that speak of this. But something that is not true will create confusion somewhere along the track, when you look at all the scriptures. I think that is what we see.
Adam was the first man.
But Jesus was not the firstborn among men, but the firstborn of all creation, which obviously includes men.Firstborns are literally the firstborn unless a literal firstborn looses or gives his status away to another.
The word firstborn has 2 sides to it. Firstborn is a self explanatory word meaning the first born as in eldest, and with that there are certain privileges.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2007,09:24) Now what would happen if Adam hadn't sinned?
Then there would be no need for a second Adam and why would Jesus be needed at all?Then you have to ask yourself why God would make all things with his son in mind, and then create Adam before him.
The only conclusion would be that God intended all things for Jesus, but in the interim, he created a son called Adam and predestined Adam to fall, in order to keep his plan for creating all things with Christ in mind.
Not that this reasoning proves that he pre-existed. No there are enough scriptures that speak of this. But something that is not true will create confusion somewhere along the track, when you look at all the scriptures. I think that is what we see.
Adam was the first man.
But Jesus was not the firstborn among men, but the firstborn of all creation, which obviously includes men.Firstborns are literally the firstborn unless a literal firstborn looses or gives his status away to another.
The word firstborn has 2 sides to it. Firstborn is a self explanatory word meaning the first born as in eldest, and with that there are certain privileges.
…t8….Now what would happen if Adam hadn't sinned?
Then there would be no need for a second Adam and why would Jesus be needed at all?..Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
Adams relationship to christ?…this time a quickning spirit..that quickning spirit… is it christ??
Another vessel is a new body..new creation…and we have the first born of the dead?
David made of marred clay, made of the seed of Adam, whom Adam had no mother to leave…..said this of himself….concerning his resurection from the dead.. Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Hbr 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Was THIS Adams spirit, come to do his will)?
Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.…Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Quote Now what would happen if Adam hadn't sinned?
Then there would be no need for a second Adam and why would Jesus be needed at all?Then you have to ask yourself why God would make all things with his son in mind, and then create Adam before him.
That's a very good point T8.
Quote Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Was THIS Adams spirit, come to do his will)? Charity;
We know that it was Adam's spirit or Adam because Adam wasn't involved with creation. That is, there is no scripture that says by him the world was made and without him was not any thing made that was made. Those verses in John are only attributed to Christ. Also in Colossians and Hebrews. John identified this man that made all things as the Son of God John 1:34.
Take Care.
Steven
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