Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Wj…….> a plan is the result of a mind. and Jesus is the result of God's plan. (For whom He forknow He predestined to be conformed to a Son). ( foreknow,) is the same language it says about Us.We were also Forknown, but were we preexistent beings , No, at least as far as I know. So how can you apply the same language to Jesus, but not to us.

And your right a builder gets His plans from and architect, But who is the architect and creator of all things, is it not God Himself.

The bottom line is you don't want to believe that God is the only true God and there is no other. Not me, you, nor Jesus. Jesus it's said is our Brother and if He is our brother then He isn't our Father, He can't be both. No were does God call us His brother does He.

All who have God in them are true son's of God.

You mentioned about not sinning after we have recieved the Spirit of, Paul said It is no longer I who sin But sin that is in my body, So with I serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin and death, why? because sin has already infected us, So even if its not accounted to us we still have this infection in our bodies, but when we will recieve our new bodies we won't be infected with sin and we will no longer have sin in Us.
WJ….> dont you think God Could have prevented sin from infecting Adam and Eve if He wanted to.
So ask youself why did He permit it, what was His reason for allowing sin in the first place. And why create Man in a physical body that would need to die.
God had a plan all along even sin was part of that plan. He know Adam and Eve would sin and even added a catalast to speed up the reaction Satan, or it might have taken 1000's of years before it happend but God know it ultimately would have happened. So he wanted us to experience both good and evil inorder to have first hand experience and shortened the time to as short as possible to learn about Good and evil. Even Jesus experenced Good and evil first Hand didn't He.

Now look at the people in the mellianium When Jesus and the Saints are rulling on earth and the evil influence is taken away and all the earth walkes in God's way under the guidence of Jesus and the Saints, what happens at the end when satan is relaeased He immediately goes out an causes the nations to come to battle against the Jesus ans the Saints, Why, what was the difference between the People and Jesus and the Saints. Only one thine the people did not have God's Spirit in them to see through the deception of Satan.

Now what does that show us, this, with out God in us it's impossible to please God and to remain in fellowship with Him.

You might say The Father in Us, For ever, is our Gyroscope or Guidence system that will guide us for ever.

So the plan and purpose was from the beginning and it's to develop true Son's and Daughters with Us having only one Father even God Himself. And this holds true even with Jesus our brother also. He may not have sinned but he certinly experenced sin and good and evil also.

It's only one God who will be in all and through all when it's all done. IMO……gene

[Towshab]

Why are you all debating whether Jesus pre-existed? Shouldn't you be validating whether or not he existed in the first place?

[david]

Quote

David…..> you say a plan cant owe anything, no, But the Creator of the plan can, and How do you know that God didn't felt he owed it to Us to show us whats possible for us.

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong here. Yes, maybe the Creator of a plan can feel obliged to do something, behooved, etc.

But it doesn't say that the creator of Jesus or a plan felt this way. It says:

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore [3606] in [2596] all things [3956] it behoved him [3784] (5707) to be made like [3666] (5683) unto [his] brethren [80],

Are you saying that the “him” here is God?

Because it isn't. It is clearly Jesus, or as you believe, God's plan.

So, can God's plan feel obligated to do something?
God has a purpose for the earth. Does God's purpose get sad? Does God's ideas feel anything? God feels things. His plans do not. At least, not according to my understanding of every definition of the word plan.

[david]

Quote

Why are you all debating whether Jesus pre-existed? Shouldn't you be validating whether or not he existed in the first place?

I'm sorry Towshab, but if you died today, it would be easier for me to prove that Jesus existed than that you did.
For someone that didn't exist, he sure changed the world in tremedous ways.

[david]

Quote

Wj…….> a plan is the result of a mind. and Jesus is the result of God's plan.

Right. God's earth is the result of God. The universe is the result of God. All inanimate things, material, energy etc is the result of God.

Do any of these in-animate (non-personal) things feel obligated to help mankind?

Nope.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2007,15:18)

Quote Why are you all debating whether Jesus pre-existed? Shouldn't you be validating whether or not he existed in the first place? I'm sorry Towshab, but if you died today, it would be easier for me to prove that Jesus existed than that you did. For someone that didn't exist, he sure changed the world in tremedous ways.

But I have legitimate birth records,credit records, pictures, a will, employment records, etc. and many others with the US government. Jesus was never mentioned by any historian during his time period. Pretty amazing for someone who was supposed to be the “King of Israel”.

[david]

Quote

Pretty amazing for someone who was supposed to be the “King of Israel”.

I don't remember anyone making him the “king of Israel.” What scripture is that? Or are you talking about the mocking way those who killed him inscribed that on the stake?

What I do remember is some trying to make him king, and him fleeing.
JOHN 6:15
“Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”

historian Will Durant argued: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably? The reference work The Historians’ History of the World observed: “The historical result of [Jesus’] activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the chief civilisations of the world, dates from his birth.”

Yes, think about it. Even calendars today are based on the year that Jesus was thought to have been born. “Dates before that year are listed as B.C., or before Christ,” explains The World Book Encyclopedia. “Dates after that year are listed as A.D., or anno Domini (in the year of our Lord).”

Critics, nevertheless, point out that all that we really know about Jesus is found in the Bible. No other contemporary records concerning him exist, they say. Even H. G. Wells wrote: “The old Roman historians ignored Jesus entirely; he left no impress on the historical records of his time.” But is this true?

Although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are meager, such references do exist. Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: “The name [Christian] is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.” Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

The New Encyclopædia Britannica thus concludes: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

[david]

While there are many who may doubt that Jesus is who the Biblical account says he is, there are very few, in my opinion, who doubt that he existed.

Wall Street Journal editorial in December 2002 stated: “Science Can’t Ignore Jesus.” Its writer concluded: “Most scholars, barring the stray atheist, have already accepted Jesus of Nazareth as a historical person.”

“It would require much exotic calculation,” Time magazine reported, “to deny that the single most powerful figure—not merely in these two millenniums but in all human history—has been Jesus of Nazareth.” It added: “A serious argument can be made that no one else’s life has proved remotely as powerful and enduring as that of Jesus.”

References to Jesus by Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and at least one by Flavius Josephus, are generally accepted as proof of the historical existence of Jesus.

[david]

I'm sorry Towshab. This is the wrong thread for the historicity of Jesus. I'll try to find another thread.

[david]

Quote

But I have legitimate birth records,credit records, pictures, a will, employment records, etc.

Towshab. So, what was Jesus “credit” record like? Obviously, a will, “pictures”, employement records, etc, weren't really in fashion back then.

Still, I would have a much easier time proving to someone that Jesus existed then that you, Towshab, exist. I know that you, while you're alive would have an easy time to prove that you exist, that wasn't what I said.

david.

I'll find a better thread.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,15:50)

Hi Not3, The god of this world had a secure squatters kingdom established here among men with an order of authority down to the demons. Only God could break it down. God needed a vessel for His Spirit to do this work as He does not come to tiny earth. He found a willing servant in heaven, His monogenes Son, whao agreed to come knowing opf his future rewards, and He sent him here guiding his growth and at the age of 30 human years empowered him eternally to do this victorious work. We continue it till they return.

I started reading at the beginning of the thread and found this post of Nick's. He has an interesting theology. What I find interesting is this notion of God looking around heaven to find a willing servant to volunteer for the role of Savior. Thoughts?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2007,15:20)

Quote Wj…….> a plan is the result of a mind. and Jesus is the result of God's plan. Right.  God's earth is the result of God.  The universe is the result of God.  All inanimate things, material, energy etc is the result of God. Do any of these in-animate (non-personal) things feel obligated to help mankind? Nope.

Thanks David!

But, the lies of satan will do anything and twist any scripture to deny that Yeshua came down from heaven litterally.

Its a huge lie that says Jesus was just a thought or plan of God. Its ludicrous to say that Jn 1:1 should be interpreted as the “Thoughts and plan” is God.

This truly is changing the text and denying the many translations and 100s of scholars that interpret the verse meaning a person (Yeshua) was with God.

Here lies one of the origins of this heretical doctrine that denys that Yeshua came in the flesh.

Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang….ion=kjv

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,19:22)

denying the many translations and 100s of scholars that interpret the verse meaning a person (Yeshua) was with God.

Scholars translate the WORD as being the person Jesus? Where? Is that in a study note or something? I've always understood John 1:1 to be open to interpretation. It certainly has many interpretations as we have seen from participating in this forum.

[kenrch]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 24 2007,07:19)

Quote Wow Steve that's good.  So are you saying that Jesus did not have a spirit of His own as a son of Man?  But only the Spirit of God? Kenrch; You've raised a question that I haven't considered but I will make an attempt.  When God lights every man that comes into the world he gives that person a spirit.  When that person dies that spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes.  The spirit is the means by which we commune with God so Christ must of had a spirit of his own given to him by the Father to communicate with God.  So my answer to your question would be that he had his own spirit as the Son of Man.   The person of Christ or what may be called the soul of Christ is what pre-existed because that was who Christ was as the Son of God.  His body was created.  He had the DNA of Mary in his body.  What is conceived in the woman is flesh, God provides the spirit.   I'm not sure why no one has brought this out (at least I've never heard it espoused by anyone in the 35 years I've been a Christian), but the truth has been staring us in the face since the law was given by Moses.  Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength. God distinguishes the individual parts of man.   Praise the Lord Steven

Ok let me see if I'm understanding you. The Son of God had the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) then when conceived in Mary God gave the Son of God an additional Human spirit. So Jesus was born with the Spirit of God AND the spirit of man.

So if Jesus was born having the Spirit of God what was it that HE received when HE was baptized? Did the Spirit leave then come back?

Steve I'm not being “smart” far from it I'm just trying to understand.

God bless,

Ken

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,04:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,19:22) denying the many translations and 100s of scholars that interpret the verse meaning a person (Yeshua) was with God. Scholars translate the WORD as being the person Jesus?  Where?  Is that in a study note or something?  I've always understood John 1:1 to be open to interpretation.  It certainly has many interpretations as we have seen from participating in this forum.

not3

Scriptures have to be read in context not3.

You having heard that Jn 1:1 is open to all kinds of translations is a lie for…

1 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The first chapter of John clearly shows the the “Word” is Yeshua since that same “Word” John is talking about in John 1:1 was made flesh in John 1:14. There are over 40 pronouns refering to Yeshua in the 1st chapter of John.

John clarifys who the word is in 1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13.

To say that John 1:1 the “Word” that was with God is non other than Yeshua is simply closing the eyes to what is written and translated by the translators!!!

[Not3in1]

The Word was made flesh…..the Word became Jesus. It wasn't already Jesus. This is where the confusion comes in for me.

Jesus did not come on the scene until he was conceived. So, JESUS couldn't have been with the Father prior to his earthly birth. So what was with the Father? The “spirit” of Jesus? Curious….

[Not3in1]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,04:38)

The person of Christ or what may be called the soul of Christ is what pre-existed because that was who Christ was as the Son of God.  His body was created.  He had the DNA of Mary in his body.  What is conceived in the woman is flesh, God provides the spirit.   I'm not sure why no one has brought this out (at least I've never heard it espoused by anyone in the 35 years I've been a Christian), but the truth has been staring us in the face since the law was given by Moses.

Actually this is not a new idea.  If you read the thread from the beginning, you will see that this is the theory of “Nick”.

**The quote thingy didn't work. The quote above is actually from “Mr. Steve” and NOT Ken. Sorry for the confusion.**

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Ok let me see if I'm understanding you. The Son of God had the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) then when conceived in Mary God gave the Son of God an additional Human spirit. So Jesus was born with the Spirit of God AND the spirit of man. So if Jesus was born having the Spirit of God what was it that HE received when HE was baptized? Did the Spirit leave then come back? Steve I'm not being “smart” far from it I'm just trying to understand. God bless, Ken

Ken;

The miracle of the Holy Spirit conceiving Christ was certainly that of a body. A body thou hast prepared for me. As human beings we have a spirit given to us from God. He lights every man that comes into the world. When a person is born again the human spirit is joined with the Lord and he that is joined with the Lord is one spirit according to Paul. The infilling of the Holy Spirit as taught by many is subsequent to being born again with the evidence of speaking in tongues, etc.

Christ was given the Spirit without measure and that may have occurred at his baptism, but the scriptures are silent as just to when it occurred. Just as the scriptures are silent with regards to when exactly got lights up an unborn in the womb. I do not claim to have an answer for when it occurs.

The whole point of my post was to show that God lights every man so why would it be so difficult for God to incarnate his son by the spirit in Mary. The exact whys and hows which you are attempting to understand is beyond the scope of my post.

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,08:46)

The Word was made flesh…..the Word became Jesus.  It wasn't already Jesus.  This is where the confusion comes in for me. Jesus did not come on the scene until he was conceived.  So, JESUS couldn't have been with the Father prior to his earthly birth.  So what was with the Father?  The “spirit” of Jesus?  Curious….

not3

Tie in scripture with scripture and you will have your answer.

Phil 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Compare with…

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God

Phil 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Compare with…

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory [whos glory, the Word], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Phil 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. He was found in fashion as a man, what does that mean to you?

Compare with…

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

John clarifys who the “Word” is in 1 John 1:1-3

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Who did he see? You cant see a thought or a plan.

He saw the “Word of life”, how? By seeing Yeshua who is the Word made flesh.

Can you handle a “Thought or a plan”?

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

John 1:1 says the Word was with the Father.

John 1:4 says in him was life, here we see he is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father.

John 1:14 says the “Word” tabernacled among us and we beheld his glory. Here he was with the Father and was manifested.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Here he clarifys what he saw in verse one the “Word” and says that which he has seen is Yeshua and that his fellowship is with the Father and Yeshua.

John cofirms this with Rev 19:13 Jesus having the name the “Word of God”.

You say…

Quote

So what was with the Father?  The “spirit” of Jesus?  Curious….

Did the Father come in the flesh?

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, is it not?

Rom 8:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Compare with…

Phil 1:9
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ
And…

Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Question for you.

Do you think the “Word” in John 1:1 is the Word of God?

For if it is Gods thought or plan then to fulfill his thought or plan it would have to become his spoken word since every thing God does is through his word, wouldnt you say?

So is the “Word” his spoken word?

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,08:48)

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,04:38) The person of Christ or what may be called the soul of Christ is what pre-existed because that was who Christ was as the Son of God.  His body was created.  He had the DNA of Mary in his body.  What is conceived in the woman is flesh, God provides the spirit.   I'm not sure why no one has brought this out (at least I've never heard it espoused by anyone in the 35 years I've been a Christian), but the truth has been staring us in the face since the law was given by Moses. Actually this is not a new idea.  If you read the thread from the beginning, you will see that this is the theory of “Nick”. **The quote thingy didn't work.  The quote above is actually from “Mr. Steve” and NOT Ken.  Sorry for the confusion.**

Mandy I don't think I said that I believe it was Steve.

Posted: Oct. 24 2007,07:19

——————————————————————————–
Quote
Wow Steve that's good. So are you saying that Jesus did not have a spirit of His own as a son of Man? But only the Spirit of God?

Kenrch;

You've raised a question that I haven't considered but I will make an attempt. When God lights every man that comes into the world he gives that person a spirit. When that person dies that spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes. The spirit is the means by which we commune with God so Christ must of had a spirit of his own given to him by the Father to communicate with God. So my answer to your question would be that he had his own spirit as the Son of Man. The person of Christ or what may be called the soul of Christ is what pre-existed because that was who Christ was as the Son of God. His body was created. He had the DNA of Mary in his body. What is conceived in the woman is flesh, God provides the spirit.

I'm not sure why no one has brought this out (at least I've never heard it espoused by anyone in the 35 years I've been a Christian), but the truth has been staring us in the face since the law was given by Moses. Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength. God distinguishes the individual parts of man.

Praise the Lord

Steven

Ken

[Author]

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