Preexistence

[kejonn]

Hi all,

I recently noticed something. The writer of Matthew certainly miffed this one:

Mat 2:6 (KJV) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Now compare this to Micah 5:2

Mic 5:2 (KJV) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

The word used for “little” in Micah 5:2 is

H6810
צעור צעירo
tsâ‛îyr tsâ‛ôr
tsaw-eer', tsaw-ore'
From H6819; little; (in number) few; (in age) young, (in value) ignoble: – least, little (one), small (one), + young (-er, -est).

So Micah basically says “least” while Matthew says “not least”. Whoever wrote Matthew was a marginal Jew…

[charity]

King David came from the tribe of Judah???

He is the christ of the old testament, for and … of those in need of resurrection of Life..David prevailed… before the christ of salvation rises!….of whom now we are the the New Life

The Lion of the tribe of Judah…we are skipping, seasons and times for the contexts in scriptures..

charity

[kenrch]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 23 2007,10:19)

To all; When God revealed this truth to me I knew it would generate a stir.  Man is composed of a body, soul, and a spirit. When any person is conceived what is conceived? A body.  A woman cannot bring forth a spirit from her flesh.  It is God that lights every man that comes into the world.  John 1.  In Hebrews Paul said when Christ came into the world he said sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared for me.  Did Jesus say a soul thou hast prepared or a spirit?   When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and explained how she was going to conceive, her question was how is that going to happen seeing I know not a man?  The miracle of the immaculate conception was that the Holy Spirit could cause Mary to conceive by supernatural means.  Now the scripture says that God lights every man that comes into the world so in a sense every human life is a miracle because the spirit and comes from God and actually survives death until judgment.  Ecclesiastes says the spirit goes back to the Lord who gave it.   Our spirits are really our antennas to tune into the things of God.  The spirit searches the deep things of God.  The soul is who we are in our wills, mind, and emotions.  That part of man comes from God in all cases.  God even has a soul.  He said “This is my beloved Son in whom my soul is well pleased.” So Jesus must also have a soul because he is the express image of God.  He had his soul in heaven otherwise he would have no will.  He said he came down from heaven not of his own will. The scripture talks about having the mind of Christ so Christ has a mind.  He identifies himself in heaven with God his Father prior to being sent. My point is that the greater abberation is for Mary to conceive a body, not that God sent a spirit into the person in her womb because God lights every man that comes into the world.  In this respect, Paul says are we not all the offspring of God.  Only God gives life.   With that in mind, if Christ did not pre-exist, then the only difference between Christ and us would be that his body was conceived by the holy spirit.  His body in the flesh had a beginning.  So when he said “he” came down from heaven you should believe that “he” the Son of God came down from heaven because his body was created on here on earth. All of our spirits come down from heaven because God lights every man that comes into the world.  So the only part left is the actual person that must have pre-existed.  That's why Christ is unique and that's why he is absolutely emphatic that “he” referring to himsel was sent from heaven from God and knew God at that time.  The entire Gospel message of John actually revolves around believing that he is the Son of God that came into the world from above. This truth has really got me excited because it gives us so much understanding and even greater faith in God and his Son. Take Care Steven

Wow Steve that's good. So are you saying that Jesus did not have a spirit of His own as a son of Man? But only the Spirit of God?

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…..> You seem to think Jesus was unique because God Memipulated some DNA, and caused Mary to give berth to a son. While that was unique in a sence, but comapired to Adams and Eves”s it was nothing. It was done by a mercalious berth to idenify Jesus as the one spoken of in the old testament as the Messiah. But when He recieved the HOLY SPIRIT into HIM at His Baptism, He then became the only begotten Son of God. That only begotten Son Status lasted Until the Day of Pentacost and then it changed from only to first begotten and firstborn, but not (ONLY) any more. Doesn't it plainly say (NOW) we are the son's of God. If you have recieved the Holy Spirit into you you are a son of God and a brother to Jesus the Uniquely Begotten First Born, of (MANY) Brethern. His only First Status now is He has been raised from the dead, and that only lasts until the resurection. God the Father is Building His Family and Jesus Holds the rank of first born and first rasied and has been given the office and status of the first born in our family. When He comes He will operate with the power of that office.

WJ there is only One God and One mederator Between GodThe Father and Us and it's THE MAN Jesus who was the annoited or Christ. And when we become Annoited and recieve Holy Spirit into Us, we can Grow to the (FULL MEASURE OF CHRIST).
We then have full status as a family member of the House Hold of GOD, our Father.

IMHO……> gene

[IM4Truth]

Gen You are still denying the preexisting of Jesus before Abraham was I was, and other scriptures given.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 23 2007,10:39)

Quote If Gods Spirit can come inside of you then why can't Jesus who is also Spirit enter into the body that was conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary? Amen WJ When Mary answered Gabriel how shall these things be seeing I know not a man, his response was “Nothing shall be impossible with God.”   When you look at how a person is conceived and God providing the spirit of a man, is it such a big leap that he could conceive a body for Christ? Even John the Baptist said, Do not begin to say within yourselves that we have Abraham as our father because God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.  Which would you consider to be a greater micracle?   How about the loaves multiplied from just a few to enough for 5,000 people?  How about the creation of the world by the spoken word of God?  Why we refuse to believe that Christ pre-existed is just a lack of faith.  Oh, ye of little faith.  Where is thy faith?   If he did not pre-exist then he would not be who he said he was.  I'm not going there. Believe who he said he was.  That is the work of God! Praise God Almighty. Praise Jesus Christ! Steven

Well, nothing is impossible with God, this is true. But let's not read outside of actual scripture and write the story ourselves.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus as conceived. Even if that means that God provided the “spirit” of Jesus from another time (preexistence), his Son was still CONCEIVED. Which means that he underwent a process of conception, which would ALTER the preexistent one. To deny this is to deny that Jesus was actually conceived.

I wish folks would call it what it really is instead of saying they believe conception. If a preexistent “something” entered Mary and THEN underwent conception, this “thing” would be altered IF you believe in true conception (which is the process by which cells break down and fuse together and form a *new* human being). If you don't believe this happened to your preexistent Jesus, then please say you believe in an incarnation instead.

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Wow Steve that's good. So are you saying that Jesus did not have a spirit of His own as a son of Man? But only the Spirit of God?

Kenrch;

You've raised a question that I haven't considered but I will make an attempt. When God lights every man that comes into the world he gives that person a spirit. When that person dies that spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes. The spirit is the means by which we commune with God so Christ must of had a spirit of his own given to him by the Father to communicate with God. So my answer to your question would be that he had his own spirit as the Son of Man. The person of Christ or what may be called the soul of Christ is what pre-existed because that was who Christ was as the Son of God. His body was created. He had the DNA of Mary in his body. What is conceived in the woman is flesh, God provides the spirit.

I'm not sure why no one has brought this out (at least I've never heard it espoused by anyone in the 35 years I've been a Christian), but the truth has been staring us in the face since the law was given by Moses. Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength. God distinguishes the individual parts of man.

Praise the Lord

Steven

[GeneBalthrop]

Mr. Steve….> Jesus was given a Spirit and a Soul and Body Just like we are no difference and God who is Spirit came into Him on the day he was begotten and thats the same with Us. WE were For known as was Jesus and when we are physicaly born God gives us a Spirit that enlightens us with thought and we became a seperate living soul with our own Wills The same as Jesus and at the right time God the Father gaves us His spirit also like He did Jesus and then we become also begotten son's of God, No difference . The only preexistence of Jesus was the same as ours, in the Forknowledge of God, Just like Peter Said.

When God add's His thoughts to ours i.e.Spirit, then two Wills begin to function in our Bodies, ours and God's, And as we yeild to God's Will expressed through His word or Spirit in us, we then are beginning to put our Wills to death Like Jesus did and we are also begining to conform the IMAGE of GOD just like Jesus did. There's no difference it workes the same way for Jesus and Us also. Thats why Jesus said He is the way, because being born into the family of God works the same way as it did for Him.

Jesus was no preexistent super being of any Kind, He simply was an uniquely born human being who was forordained to be the first born into the Family of God. God did not empty Himself and take the form of a Man Like Trinitarians say nor did He send a preexisting super being to be reborn twice, NO, He made and ordinary Man called the Second Man ADAM, and perfected Him through His Spirit and thats how Jesus Made it, and if God would have let Jesus try to make it on HIS own He would have Failed Just like we Have and will if we are left on our own.
IMO………> gene

[Mr. Steve]

Gene;

I fully understand where you're are coming from. You do not believe the following, including but not limited to;
1). That Jesus Christ existed before John the Baptist, like John said
2). That Jesus Christ was from above, as John and Jesus said
3). That he existed in heaven with his Father and was sent, as John and Jesus said,
4). That he existed before the foundation of the world with his Father, as Christ prayed,
5). That he existed before Abraham, as Jesus said,
6). That God created all things through Christ, as Paul said, and
7). That Jesus was no different than us, even though he said he was from above and we are from beneath.

So considering the aforementioned, believe me when I say, I understand where you are coming from.

Take Care

Steven

[david]

Quote

The scriptures tell us that Jesus as conceived. 1. Even if that means that God provided the “spirit” of Jesus from another time (preexistence), his Son was still CONCEIVED. 2. Which means that he underwent a process of conception, which would ALTER the preexistent one. 3. To deny this is to deny that Jesus was actually conceived.

–Not3

Let's work backwards, beginning with your #3. First, no one is arguing that the Bible is wrong. We are arguing that your idea of conception, your medical technical definition may not be just what the inspired writer had in mind. What other word could he have used? I really wish someone would look into the actual word used, and stop focusing on these human definitions of this English word.

Yes, normally, a child is made up of their human Father and Mother. That is how conception NORMALLY works, true. Normally however, someone is not found “PREGNANT BY HOLY SPIRIT.”

That doesn't fit with ANY of your definitions in any of your dictionaries on what “conception” is. Clearly, this wasn't normal, it wasn't usual.

“During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united.” (Matthew 1:18)

Is that a part of the dictionaries definition of conception: being “pregnant by holy spirit”?

No.

“Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” (Luke 1:35)

On what grounds are we to call this a “normal conception”? It clearly wasn’t.
It has God's fingerprints all over it.

Your #1 states that Jesus was conceived, as the Bible says. Yes, this is the word used to convey the original thought.

We know Jesus was “undefiled, separated from the sinners.”—Hebrews 7:26; 10:5.

Every other conception on the planet resulted in people who weren't perfect or free from sin. Those who write these definitions of conception look at these conceptions of defiled sinners (us, everyone) and don't include the Bible accounts, obviously.

So yes, the best word to describe what happened was “conception.” But the fact that you hold so tightly to this english word and try to make your definitions fit what happened with Jesus makes me wonder.

Surely it was not impossible for the Creator, who designed the human reproductive organs, to bring about the fertilization of an egg cell in the womb of Mary by supernatural means.
Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of Mary. God’s own active force, his holy spirit, SAFEGUARDED THE DEVELOPEMENT of the child in Mary’s womb so that what was born was a perfect human.—Luke 1:35; John 17:5.

I'm not sure what you believe that the holy spirit overshadowing mary means, but you assert in what I call your #2 statement that “he underwent a process of conception, which would ALTER the preexistent one.”
Yes, except perhaps the “power of the Most High”, God's holy spirit “overshadowed” Mary and was at work.

Continually, it is asserted that:
'The conception here stated must be a normal medical definition of conception.'

But everywhere in this account, we are told that it is not. Yes, it is conception. That's the word that it was translated into. Most definitions of conception would fit. In it's most basic sense, conception means a beginning of some process (which is where we get the medical definition from.)

On a separate note, wondering what people think of this scripture?
“Who the Father is, no one knows but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22)

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2007,04:28)

WJ…..> You seem to think Jesus was unique because God Memipulated some DNA, and caused Mary to give berth to a son. While that was unique in a sence, but comapired to Adams and Eves”s it was nothing. It was done by a mercalious berth to idenify Jesus as the one spoken of in the old testament as the Messiah. But when He recieved the HOLY SPIRIT into HIM at His Baptism, He then became the only begotten Son of God. That only begotten Son Status lasted Until the Day of Pentacost and then it changed from only to first begotten and firstborn, but not (ONLY) any more. Doesn't it plainly say (NOW) we are the son's of God. If you have recieved the Holy Spirit into you you are a son of God and a brother to Jesus the Uniquely Begotten First Born, of (MANY) Brethern. His only First Status now is He has been raised from the dead, and that only lasts until the resurection. God the Father is Building His Family and Jesus Holds the rank of first born and first rasied and has been given the office and status of the first born in our family. When He comes He will operate with the power of that office. WJ there is only One God and One mederator Between GodThe Father and Us and it's THE MAN Jesus who was the annoited or Christ. And when we become Annoited and recieve Holy Spirit into Us, we can Grow to the (FULL MEASURE OF CHRIST). We then have full status as a family member of the House Hold of GOD, our Father. IMHO……> gene

GB

You say…

Quote

But when He recieved the HOLY SPIRIT into HIM at His Baptism, He then became the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus was the Son of God from birth. The Holy Spirit came upon him and confirmed who he was.

Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

He was the Son of God at birth.

Jesus was not born agian when the Spirit came upon him. Notice the Spirit sat upon him, not filled him.

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

But everywhere in this account, we are told that it is not. Yes, it is conception. That's the word that it was translated into. Most definitions of conception would fit. In it's most basic sense, conception means a beginning of some process (which is where we get the medical definition from.) On a separate note, wondering what people think of this scripture? “Who the Father is, no one knows but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22)

David; Very interesting. It reminds me of the look on the face of a certain friend of mine when I explained how Christ was raised from the dead, he began to argue how it is scientifically impossible. This was actually Mary's first response, too, How can this be seeing that I know not a man. Then Gabriel basically states what you said With God nothing shall be impossible, implying that he knew it was naturally impossible or scientifically impossible.

The scripture about no one knowing the Father but the Son, and the Son except the Father and he to whom the Father reveals him is taking on greater meaning all the time. When Peter identified Christ as the Son of God, Jesus said flesh and blood has not revealed this unto thee but my father in heaven. We can only do so much, we plant and water but God draws and gives the increase.

Steven

[GeneBalthrop]

Mr.Steve…> You need to understand I am Not say Jesus did not preexist. What I am saying is (HOW) He Preexisted. I maintain like Peter That Jesus was (Forodained) Meaning He was in the Plan of God before the Foundations of the world, But came into existence was (Manifested ) in our time.

And you saying I am denining the preexistence of Jesus is false, I am dening the way you and other Preexistentest and incarnationest, and Trinitarians, say He preexisted thats all. So please if your going to cast me atleast cast me right.

WJ….> You may have a point to Jesus' sonship by means of His physical berth. That he may have recieved Holy Spirit at the time of His Berth, I have to study that more. But one question remains why did God say (THIS DAY) I have begotten you then. And I don't recall Jesus doing any Mircales before He was Baptised. But you have an interesting point. Will think about that……..peace gene

[david]

HEBREWS 2:17-18
“Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, [BEFORE WE GE THE WRONG IDEA, THEN IT GOES ON TO EXPLAIN:] that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.
(You may interpet “all things” or “all respects” to mean he couldn’t have had a pre-existence, but we don’t. Verse 18 and 4:15 make clear it is talking about something else here:)
HEBREWS 4:15
“For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects LIKE OURSELVES, but without sin.”
(THEY'RE THE IDEA. IT ACTUALLY EXPLAINS IT, RIGHT THERE. He has been “tested in all respects, like ourselves.”
He lived as a human. He was truly “made flesh.” He suffered trials, problems, etc. So he can truly sympathize with our weaknesses. He was “tested” in all the ways humans are. Hence, he is “merciful” (4:18) and can “sympathize” as this verse says.
This is what these scriptures actually say.

Look at that first scripture again. He (THE PLAN, I GUESS) was “obliged” [“under a moral obligation”] to become like his brothers in all respects.

How does a “plan” have an obligation to do anything?

Yes, your Bible doesn't say “obliged.” I'm looking in an interlinear and it says:
“From which (Greek word) HE WAS OWING (another greek word) according to (another greek word) all things (another greek word)…..

The American Standard Bible brings out this meaning somewhat in that it says he was behooved to do this. “Behoove” meaning it was “necessary or proper” to do it. I wish someone could do a search on that greek word and find out what it means (I believe it means roughly: “he was owing.”)

Anyway, I think this scripture doesn't work if “plan” is to be the understood meaning.

[david]

Ok, I looked up that word myself. I'm not used to strong's concordance, but it is #3784 for those who care or know what that means.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore [3606] in [2596] all things [3956] it behoved him [3784] (5707) to be made like [3666] (5683) unto [his] brethren [80],

That number or word apparently means:
1. to owe
1. to owe money, be in debt for
1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill due

How can a plan “owe” or how could a plan be “behooved” to do this?

A person can be obligated or behooved to do something.

this is the way NAS translates that word in various places:
had 1,
have 1,
indebted 2,
must 1,
obligated 3,
ought 15,
owe 4,
owed 4,
owes 1,
responsible 1,
should 2

And, here's how the KJ translates that word in various places:
ought 15,
owe 7,
be bound 2,
be (one's) duty 2,
be a debtor 1,
be guilty 1,
be indebted 1,
miscellaneous 7

How can a plan “ought” to do anything? How can it be obliged or behooved to do something? How can it be bound or responsible to do anything?

A person can be any of these things. A plan cannot.

[GeneBalthrop]

Here is a question for all you preexistentest and incarnationest and Trinitarianest.

IF God came and lived in The First Adam, would He Have sinned?
My answer is No., Why because He would have performed Just like Jesus Did by the same Holy Spirit that would have been in Him.

Didn't other men preform as Jesus did when they recieved the Holy Spirit, they sure did, Like Steven, Peter, Paul. James , and John and others down to our day.

The difference isn't the person, it whats in Him. If Adam had the fullness of Gods Spirit at berth He would not have sinned.

You see it's not the person it's if God is in them guiding there thought and hearts and minds. “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus our Lord”, same mind as was in Jesus, no difference.

Jesus without the Father being in Him would have faired no better the Adam Did. This abssesion with trying to make Jesus different by saying He Had special preexistent powers as a super being or an incarnet God, takes away from God own creative ability in creating righteousness, and it seperates Jesus' likeness to Us and is exactly what Satan wants us to believe.

OMO………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

David…..> you say a plan cant owe anything, no, But the Creator of the plan can, and How do you know that God didn't felt he owed it to Us to show us whats possible for us.

But I think The whole thing From start to finish was and is the Plan of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD. And what God Plans He predestinates and He calls and He justifies to be conformed to the Image of a Son (Just like He said in the beginning).

Jesus is the Father's workmanship from His Comming into being at His Berth to where He is now. And I believe if He were here now He would say the same thing. He would give all the glory to the Father. Because He is the Father workmanship and gess what we are to..
IMHO……..>Peace gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2007,12:04)

Here is a question for all you preexistentest and incarnationest and Trinitarianest. IF God came and lived in The First Adam, would He Have sinned? My answer is No., Why because He would have performed Just like Jesus Did by the same Holy Spirit that would have been in Him. Didn't other men preform as Jesus did when they recieved the Holy Spirit, they sure did, Like Steven, Peter, Paul. James , and John and others down to our day. The difference isn't the person, it whats in Him. If Adam had the fullness of Gods Spirit at berth He would not have sinned. You see it's not the person it's if God is in them guiding there thought and hearts and minds. “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus our Lord”, same mind as was in Jesus, no difference. Jesus without the Father being in Him would have faired no better the Adam Did. This abssesion with trying to make Jesus different by saying He Had special preexistent powers as a super being or an incarnet God, takes away from God own creative ability in creating righteousness, and it seperates Jesus' likeness to Us and is exactly what Satan wants us to believe. OMO………gene

GB

You say…

Quote

IF God came and lived in The First Adam, would He Have sinned?

Does God live in you? Do you sin? Or do you claim you no longer sin because God lives in you?

Your question makes no sense, for you are saying that God could have avoided all the sin and suffering of man by simply dwelling in Adam.

[IM4Truth]

WHO IS JESUS ?

Jesus had asked his disciples this question once,
Mat. 16:13 “When Jesus came into the coast of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his
disciples, saying, whom do men say that I the son of man am?”
v. 15 “He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?”
v. 16 “And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God.”
v. 17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo’na:
for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven.”
This verse tells us more then just the fact that God revealed to Peter who Jesus was; it lets us know where understanding of the bible comes from; God. Without his Holy Spirit we would have no understanding of his Word, except for the historical data contained in it. Hear is what Paul had to say,
1 Cor. 2:9 “But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered
into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love
him.”
v. 10 “But God has revealed them unto us (believers) by his Spirit: for the Spirit
searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
v. 11 “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in
him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God.”
v. 12 “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
Have you ever ask yourself; why are there so many denominations? Should not all Ministers teach the same? They all teach from the same bible, do they not? They are all taught by the same Holy Spirit, or are they? Have you ever ask yourself; why do we call the Father, Father? And why do we call Jesus, his Son? Have you ever checked in your dictionary the definitions for Father and son? I have,
Father: He who gives life to the son.
Son: He who receives life from the father.
One other observation, shouldn’t it be obvious to assume that the father is older then the son? Why is Jesus called the firstborn? This one should be easy; if you have children you have a firstborn, boy or girl doesn’t matter. Jesus did not become his father’s son when he was born of Mary; because that was not the moment he received life. His existence goes all the way back to creation;
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…”
How can we ignore the fact that God gave his Son; that God sent his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son into the world…”
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the
image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
beginning of the creation of God.”
How can we after reading all these scriptures, still insist that Jesus coexisted with the Father from all eternity? What does it mean to be made in the image? Jesus is the image of the Father; the Father is spirit in nature so is Jesus. Adam was created in the image of God,
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was flesh not spirit; a different nature; so what is Adam’s image? What is it that the Father, the Son and us humans have in common? A Mind! Also called a spirit,
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
God is a thinker, a planer and creator, and so are we; God made us that way, in his image; he has even given us the power to procreate. Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “ And he is the head of the body, the church; who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation;
Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in;
John 1:1 “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in;
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of
darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us,
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life; real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18 “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb; after three days and three nights, God raised him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight,
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”
Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud; He would have violated his own second commandment. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection.
John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
For many people, that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of damnation. As all will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes, as when they died. All will be required to repent and ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or want repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed
from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death; from which there is no resurrection. This raises a question; who has your allegiance; your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
It is more than good advice!

Prace and Love Mrs.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2007,12:18)

David…..> you say a plan cant owe anything, no, But the Creator of the plan can, and How do you know that God didn't felt he owed it to Us to show us whats possible for us. But I think The whole thing From start to finish was and is the Plan of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD. And what God Plans He predestinates and He calls and He justifies to be conformed to the Image of a Son (Just like He said in the beginning). Jesus is the Father's workmanship from His Comming into being at His Berth to where He is now. And I believe if He were here now He would say the same thing. He would give all the glory to the Father. Because He is the Father workmanship and gess what we are to.. IMHO……..>Peace gene

GB

A plan does not have its own mind.

Example:

A builder gets plans from an architect. so the builder sends the plan to the jobsite and waits for the plan to happen.

The builder nor the architect is the plan!

Neither is Jesus who is the “Word” that shared the glory of the Father before the foundation of the world the plan of God.

This is man made doctrine and denys that Yeshua came down from heaven as he said he did.

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