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Quote God knew before man was created, that he would sin. Irene, does having the ability to know, mean that you must use that ability?
To me, it seems unjust or unloving to say: 'If you do this, things will go well, but if you do this, things will not' when you know things will not go well.
Could not he have the ability but not neccessarily use it at every moment?
Quote (david @ Aug. 11 2008,07:37) Quote The scripture you quoted about choosing for yourself who yo will serve was talking to carnal minded people who did not chose right So, Gene, they had a choice then? If they did not chose right, they must have had a choice. Of course they did. It would have been silly for God to put a choice before them, if they had not choice.
Quote The whole idea of Man choosing his own salvation is part of fear tactics used to control people used by most all organization.
I personally think you're using some kind of similar tactic. I'm not talking about any religion or organization. Nor am I saying anything about one “choosing his own salvation” as if to say one can demand their own salvation. You are right, it is only by grace or undeserved kindness on God's part that we might be saved.
But we have the option to choose to do this or that, to walk down a good path or a bad path. Otherwise, what would be the point of giving one the choice, and saying: Here is your choice.
exactlyDK……then where do this come in if we are to choses by our so-called Free will, “For YOU are CREATED unto GOOD WORKS. Are we able to create ourselves GOOD then? I think not, ” for it is God who works in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. And again you are saved by GRACE (God influencing the Heart) and that (NOT OF YOURSELF) it is a GIFT of GOD. I see no free will choices in any of this do you.
peace to you ………..gene
Hi GB,
You are speaking of the saved in Christ and not of the heathen?
Of course God fits the parts of the body according to His purpose.
Eph2
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Quote DK……then where do this come in if we are to choses by our so-called Free will, “For YOU are CREATED unto GOOD WORKS. Are we able to create ourselves GOOD then? I think not, ” for it is God who works in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. And again you are saved by GRACE (God influencing the Heart) and that (NOT OF YOURSELF) it is a GIFT of GOD. I see no free will choices in any of this do you. EPHESIANS 2:8-10
“By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.”It's true, that He foreordained the works such ones would be expected to carry out and their being tested because of the sufferings the world would bring upon them. (Compare 1 Thes 3:3,4)
But this does not have to be referrring to individuals.
If God says: “The meek will inherit the earth” does that mean that he pre-destined each meek person, or does that mean that he has promised that those who are meek will inherit the earth? He knows that there will be many meek people and that these will inherit the earth. But that does not mean he predestines each individual or each one of this group of meek ones.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2008,15:16) DK……then where do this come in if we are to choses by our so-called Free will, “For YOU are CREATED unto GOOD WORKS. Are we able to create ourselves GOOD then? I think not, ” for it is God who works in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. And again you are saved by GRACE (God influencing the Heart) and that (NOT OF YOURSELF) it is a GIFT of GOD. I see no free will choices in any of this do you. peace to you ………..gene
GBWhy do you always quote Eph 2 without this part of the verse…?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
We have the responsibility given us to obey and walk in the works that God has given us in Christ.
This is done only by our following after the Spirit and being led by him.
The book of Romans is all about walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:4
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13
As David has said, it is foolish to think that God would put choices before men if they could not choose to do right or wrong.
The Spirit of God does not force himself on men, but leads them. The Spirit can be quenched, and grieved by our disobedience to him. This is all about our power to choose or reject him.
Your belief contradicts Yeshua's teachings concerning the giving of rewards to those who are faithful and obedient.
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:42-48
If a man is faithful and obedient to what the Lord has given him, then Yeshua says, Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Vrs 42.
If a man is only faithful and obedient because “God did it” and he had nothing to do with it, then why should he recieve a reward?
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12
To say a man cannot freely choose to be obedient is to take away the reward for the overcomer. How foolish to think that God will reward men for something they did not do.
Predestination is based on God foreknowing those who would or would not choose to follow his leading.
Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated. Why did God choose Jacob over Esau, even though Jacob was the firstborn? It was because God knew that Esau would sell his birthright.
God has not made a world of puppets or chess pieces. To say this is to say that God is controlling everything including every evil act or deed committed by satan or man.
A view of God in this way would say that God is not all powerful or all knowing enough to create a Universe full of beings that can choose to obey him or not, because God is so insecure that he has to control everything like puppets.
However a view that says no matter what man or beast does, God in his infinite wisdom and power can still bring about his purpose for all of creation while at the same time allowing his creation to choose, is a view that glorifies the infinitely powerful God we serve.
And so in the end all of creation willingly praising him.
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:12, 13What pleasure would God get if they only worshipped him because they were robots or pawns created by him?
Blessings WJ
How unloving and unjust Jehovah God would be if before we were born, he predetermined the course we would take and then held us responsible for our actions!
He does not do this, for “God is love,” and “all his ways are justice.” (1 John 4:8; Deuteronomy 32:4)
Having given us freedom of choice, he did not at the same time ‘determine from eternity whom he would save and whom he would damn,’ as believers in predestination assert. Freedom of choice precludes predestination.
The Bible clearly shows that the choices we make will alter our destiny. For example, God appeals to wrongdoers, saying:
“Turn back, please, every one from his bad way and from the badness of your dealings . . . that I may not cause calamity to you.” (Jeremiah 25:5, 6)
This appeal WOULD BE POINTLESS if God had already fixed each individual’s destiny. Moreover, God’s Word states:
“Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah.” (Acts 3:19)
Why would Jehovah ask people to repent and turn around if he knew beforehand that they could do absolutely nothing to change their destiny?
Again, that would be completely pointless!The Scriptures speak of some who are invited by God to rule as kings in heaven with Jesus Christ. (Matthew 22:14; Luke 12:32) However, the Bible says that they will lose that privilege if they do not endure to the end. (Revelation 2:10)
Why would God invite them at all if he had already decided that they would not be chosen?Consider also the apostle Paul’s words to his fellow believers. He wrote:
“If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.” (Hebrews 10:26)
Such a warning would be valueless and pointless if God had foreordained their destiny.Foreordained—Individuals or a Group?
“[God] has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,” wrote the apostle Paul, “just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world . . . For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself.” (Ephesians 1:3-5)
This passage states that God has chosen some descendants of the first man, Adam, to rule with Christ in the heavens. (Romans 8:14-17, 28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10) However, the assumption that Jehovah God foreordained thousands of years before they were born specific individuals to receive this privilege conflicts with the fact that humans are endowed with freedom of choice. What God foreordained was a group, or class of people, not individuals.ILLUSTRATION:
Suppose that a government decides to set up a particular agency. It predetermines the agency’s functions, its powers, and its size. The agency finally goes into operation some time after it was set up, and its members issue a statement saying: “The government determined a number of years ago what our job would be. Now we begin the work assigned to us.” Would you conclude that the government must have predetermined some years earlier who the individual members of that agency would be? Surely not. Similarly, Jehovah predetermined that he would set up a special agency to remedy the effects of Adam’s sin. He foreordained the class of people who would serve in that agency—but not the individuals. They would be chosen later, and the choices they would make in life would have a bearing on whether they were finally approved or not.What world did the apostle Paul have in mind when he said: “[God] chose us in union with him before the founding of the world”? The world that Paul refers to here is not the world that God started when he created Adam and Eve. That world was “very good”—absolutely free from sin and corruption. (Genesis 1:31) It did not need a “release” from sin.—Ephesians 1:7.
The particular world that Paul meant is the one that came into existence after Adam and Eve rebelled in Eden—a world very different from the one originally purposed by God. It was the world that began with the children of Adam and Eve. That world consisted of people alienated from God and enslaved to sin and corruption. It was a world of people who, unlike the willful sinners Adam and Eve, were redeemable.—Romans 5:12; 8:18-21.
Jehovah God was instantly able to meet the situation resulting from the rebellion in Eden. As soon as the need arose, he foreordained a special agency—the Messianic Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ—that he would use in connection with the redemption of mankind from Adamic sin. . (Matthew 6:10) God did this “before the founding of the world” of redeemable mankind, that is, before rebellious Adam and Eve brought forth children.
Being infinite in power and matchless in wisdom, Jehovah can meet any emergency or contingency that might result as his creatures exercise their free will. (Isaiah 40:25, 26; Romans 11:33) He can do this instantly and without forethought. Unlike fallible men with their limited abilities, Almighty God does not need a detailed, cut-and-dried plan that sets out beforehand the destiny of every individual on the earth. (Proverbs 19:21) In a number of Bible translations, Ephesians 3:11 speaks of God’s having an “eternal purpose” rather than a fixed plan.
“He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life,” says the Bible. “He that disobeys the Son will not see life.” (John 3:36)
Choose life.
Hi,
Of course we have to differentiate this from FATALISM, a worldly philosophical idea.
http://dictionary.die.net/fatalism
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fatalismNick….i don't agree with fatalism much, but i do agree with DETERMINISM, which i would say better describes my position. I do believe ultimately all things were predetermined, and God works them to the Council of His OWN WILL, and for His own purposes and good pleasure. I also don't not believe in FREE WILL as Determinism states. While some of my thoughts may be presumed to follow fatalism and i guess to some degree they do, but i also believe we do make choices that are outside the will of God at times, but these choices have nothing to do with Free Will but captive wills brought on by past experiences and do cause us to stumble at times but i believe these stumbling are there also for a reason to keep us humble and to prevent boasting. But the overall plan and purposes of God, are and Will be carried out, and we are not the captains of our own destinies as So-Called “FREE WILL presumes. I do not believe there is any free Will, only caused choices by a influenced Will. IMO
peace to you and yours………….gene
Gene,
If God says: “The meek will inherit the earth” does that mean that he pre-destined each meek person, or does that mean that he has promised that those who are meek will inherit the earth? He knows that there will be many meek people and that these will inherit the earth. But that does not mean he predestines each individual or each one of this group of meek ones?Quote (david @ Sep. 10 2008,18:41) Gene,
If God says: “The meek will inherit the earth” does that mean that he pre-destined each meek person, or does that mean that he has promised that those who are meek will inherit the earth? He knows that there will be many meek people and that these will inherit the earth. But that does not mean he predestines each individual or each one of this group of meek ones?
exactlyDavid and Dk………why do you both leave out GRACE (Gods influencing on the heart) on your statements, is it because you are trusting in yourselves to bring about your salvation by your so-call (FREE WILLS). DO you even believe GOD is the Potter and we the Clay. DO you believe that GOD forms the Clay as He sees fit. Or is you concept the clay must assist the Potter to form itself righteous. Then the clay does indeed have a right to BOAST seeing His had a hand in forming himself. You both are falling to see to see the power and influence of GOD in a persons life. Jer 13:23…> Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?, may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Psa 14:2…> the Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek GOD. All together become filthy: there is none that doth good, no (NOT ONE). God also said therefore he took it upon his own arm to bring salvation. We need to Give GOD the sole credit for our salvation which works through HIS GRACE. IMO
Quote We need to Give GOD the sole credit for our salvation which works through HIS GRACE I completely agree.
But I don't know what this has to do with the question I asked that you failed to answer.It feels like, whenever you don't want to answer a question, you start talking about grace. I'm just not sure how what I asked is connected to what you said. Please explain.
David ……All will become meek in time. God concluded all under Sin, that He might have (MERCY ON ALL) does that leave anyone out. Your using Meek as thought it is the sign of salvation and it certainly is a sign but where does it say the only a few will be meek and not all mankind ultimately will become meek. The reason i keep bringing up GRACE (God's influencing on the heart) is because GRACE produces meekness also. You can separate it no matter how hard you try, it's all from ONE GOD. Hope that answered your question.
peace ……….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2008,12:03) David ……All will become meek in time. God concluded all under Sin, that He might have (MERCY ON ALL) does that leave anyone out. Your using Meek as thought it is the sign of salvation and it certainly is a sign but where does it say the only a few will be meek and not all mankind ultimately will become meek. The reason i keep bringing up GRACE (God's influencing on the heart) is because GRACE produces meekness also. You can separate it no matter how hard you try, it's all from ONE GOD. Hope that answered your question. peace ……….gene
so whats all this judgement talk about? So let me get this straight….according to you this is how things are…
God created this beautiful earth…he then put MAN on it.. he then tells him..
“15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
HE did this KNOWING already that they WOULD eat from it.. and that by them doing this the “enemy death” would invade mankind…
He also KNEW that mankind would not be able to conquer death…and because of this… he said this…
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”Knowing… that since he caused all this to happen he now has to send his “only begotten son” to die a horrible sacrificial death…to get us out of this damnable situation that he has PURPOSELY put mankind in….
Along the way leaving COUNTLESS BILLIONS of slaughtered, abused, and tortured humans…humans who had to suffer and die in this world as victims (think murder victims and so forth) of evil…oh by the way he is the source of ALL evil..even the murderous adulterous kind..according to you
After all of this….he plans to SAVE everybody…even the unrepentant murders, abusers, and adulterers…so they can live happily ever after….
simply put…THIS IS HOGWASH…
You can serve YOUR GOD who does these types of things all you want…
I choose to serve the GOD of love…who will NEVER inflict evil upon the righteous
Dk…..Your God of love is selective then and is a respector of persons, because your sins are not really that bad as others are. But scripture says whosoever broke the lest of these laws has broken the all. So I guess it;s you who are the one making the difference right. Your just a little better then the net guy and therefore he should be cast into an ever burning Helll fire while you on the other hand beign a better person should have everlasting life. Your eyes are on the person and you are not seeing what GOD is able to do even for the worst offenders. In your religion King David will go to eternal burning lake of fire, because he not only committed adultery but Murdered Uriah and stoled His wife. But David said blessed is the man who the Lord will impute no sin, whose iniquities He has covered. Then you would say David repented of His sin and indeed he did, but what do you do with the fact that on His death Bed He ordered the execution of some People through the Hands of His son Solomon .
you say you serve the God of Love…who will NEVER inflect evil upon the righteous. Job 1:8 And the lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered (MY SERVANT) Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man (PERFECT) and an UPRIGHT man, one that feareth GOD, and escheweth evil. Job 42:11….> then came there unto him all his brethren , and all his sisters, and all they that had been his acquaintance before, and sis eat bread with him, and comforted him over ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM>Does this not plainly show GOD does inflict evil upon the righteous. If God can save us he can save anyone that has ever existed (YET AS BY FIRE). IMO
Peace ………………gene
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