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Hi,
This subject needs it's own thread.Eph1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Rom8
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God knows the end from the beginning. Prophecy is a gift of His Holy Spirit. He knows who will respond to His grace and who will not. The group that Paul writes to are found already in the kingdom so these words relate to them as they are the proof of the pudding.
But the Spirit of God is not a gale that blows all in front of it unto his Will. Elijah found the Lord was not in the storm or the earthquake but in the still small voice. We are all sinners imbued with rebellion. God calls to all men as individuals to repent and the angels in heaven rejoice whan a sinner does so.
Every step taken is by grace and according to grace but men are naturally resistant to God's ways and must learn to be meek and cooperate with grace.
Nick, do you think that this “us” that he predestined could not be a group, rather than individuals?
Eph. 1:4, 5: “He chose us in union with him [Jesus Christ] BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
It is noteworthy that, at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life.
Thus, it was after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15]
God purposed that associated with the principal Seed, Jesus Christ, would be a group of his faithful followers who would share with him in a new government over the earth, the Messianic Kingdom. Many scriptures state that Jesus would have others ruling with him.
Nick, could it be that it was a group that was this is referring to?
Concerning Romans too,
Rom. 8:28, 29: “We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained [“predestinated,” KJ] to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
Yet, to these same ones, 2 Peter 1:10 says “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things things you will by no means ever fail.”If the individuals were predestinated to salvation, they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. Since effort is required on the part of the individuals, it must be THE CLASS that is foreordained. God purposed that the entire class would conform to the pattern set by Jesus Christ. Those selected by God to be part of that class, however, must prove faithful if they are actually to attain the reward set before them.
Does this not make sense?
Hi david,
God does not call groups.
Groups cannot go through the eye of the needle.
To be saved you do not join a group of men and that denomination is saved.
That thinking denies the basic message of Jesus who called men to come to him and drink the waters unto eternal life.Quote Hi david,
God does not call groups.“Happy are the mild tempered, for they shall inherit the earth.”
etc, etc, etc.
It is certain that a group of mild tempered people will inherit the earth.
It is not certain that any individual will.
In other words, you can't say: “This person absolutely will inherit the earth.”
But you can say with certainty, that a group of mild tempered people will.No comments on the scriptures then?
Quote That thinking denies the basic message of Jesus who called men to come to him and drink the waters unto eternal life. Nick, if someone is predestined, why would he have to do anything?
David …..what your saying is we work our way into the kingdom and your leaving God out of the picture, It is God who Causes Salvation to take place in the first place, For you are saved by GRACE (Gods influencing on the heart) and that (NOT) of yourself. And what about the potter and the clay analogy. I agree with Nick that God predestines His elect and the Group has nothing to do with it, its an individual thing. You are a JW right, I know they believe there the (ONLY) ones who are of GOD, but it think you need to rethink that in light with scripture. That whole mindset of we are the (only true ones ) is what is appealing to JW's as well as other organized religions, it give you a sense of special and uniqueness but it can also be quite controlling over peoples lives. This i know and have seen in organized religions.
peace to you…………gene
Hi:
The gospel is to be preached to every creature. God knew from the beginning who would believe and be saved. That is what is meant by predestination.
Quote Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my FatherQuote Rom 8:29 FOR WHOM HE DID FORKNOW, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;God Bless
Quote David …..what your saying is we work our way into the kingdom and your leaving God out of the picture Hi Gene. I don't remember saying anything in the slightest like that. What I did say is that the idea of predestination is completely unbiblical. Yes, there are a few scriptures that can be misunderstood in that way. But the whole of scripture seems to suggest otherwise.
Quote I agree with Nick that God predestines His elect and the Group has nothing to do with it, its an individual thing. What I'm saying is that yes, he foreordains an elect group, but the individuals that make up that group, are not foreordained.
Some scriptures:
Rev. 22:17: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”
The choice is not foreordained; it is left to the individual.
Rom. 2:4, 5: “Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly quality of God is trying to lead you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment.”
There is no forcing of individuals to pursue a prescribed course. But there is accountability for what one does.
Zeph. 2:3: “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth . . . Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”
Would a just and loving God encourage people to do what is right, in hope of a reward, if he knew that they were foreordained not to succeed?
do you see what I am saying?
Quote For you are saved by GRACE (Gods influencing on the heart) and that (NOT) of yourself.
I completely agree. It is only by his undeserved kindness that we might be saved.“You Must Choose”
On numerous occasions Jehovah encouraged his loyal ones to choose a virtuous course. For example, when Jehovah concluded a covenant with the ancient nation of Israel, he said to them, through Moses:
“I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Did God establish ahead of time the choice that those individuals would make? Evidently not.
Joshua, a leader of God’s people in ancient times, exhorted his countrymen: “Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve . . . As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.” (Joshua 24:15) Similarly, God’s prophet Jeremiah said: “Obey, please, the voice of Jehovah in what I am speaking to you, and it will go well with you, and your soul will continue to live.” (Jeremiah 38:20)
Would a just and loving God encourage people to do right in the hope of receiving a reward if he knew that they were destined to fail? No. Such encouragement would be hypocritical.
Augustine, the Father of Predestination
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: “Previous to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.” Before Augustine, earlier so-called “Church Fathers” such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus “know nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.” (Hastings’ Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, 1919, Vol. X, p. 231) In their refutation of Gnosticism, they are described as regularly expressing their belief in the free moral agency of man as “the distinguishing characteristic of human personality, the basis of moral responsibility, a divine gift whereby man might choose that which was well-pleasing to God,” and as speaking of “the autonomy of man and the counsel of God who constraineth not.”—The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, edited by S. Jackson, 1957, Vol. IX, pp. 192, 193.
It seems pre-destination is relatively new to Christian thought. Seems to have crept in not too long after the trinity, hellfire, etc apostasy.
If God foreknew and decreed Adam’s fall into sin, (if it was PREDESTINED) then Jehovah became the author of sin when he made man and he would be responsible for all human wickedness and suffering.
This cannot be reconciled with the fact that Jehovah is a God of love who hates wickedness. (Psalm 33:5; Proverbs 15:9; 1 John 4:8
The Pharisees believed in a combination of predestination and free will. In other words, “everything is foreseen, yet freedom of choice is given.” They nevertheless held that Adam and Eve were predestined to sin and that even a minor cut on the finger is preordained.
Jesus may have had such false ideas in mind when he spoke about the collapse of a tower that resulted in 18 deaths. He asked: “Do you imagine that [the victims] were proved greater debtors than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem?” (Luke 13:4) As is true of most accidents, this was the result of “time and UNFORSEEN occurrence,” not fate as the Pharisees taught. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)
David….Jesus told his disciples they did not chose Him He chose them. The scripture you quoted about choosing for yourself who yo will serve was talking to carnal minded people who did not chose right as history shows and the carnal mind is enmity to God and is not subject to the laws (NEITHER CAN INDEED BE), you are comparing the Carnal with the Spiritual Mind being saved by GRACE, there is no comparison, they are completely different minds. The spiritual mind is a mind that has been transformed by GOD to Obey Him by giving them a NEW NATURE. The whole idea of Man choosing his own salvation is part of fear tactics used to control people used by most all organization. This gives the organization the power to in trap people through promoting fear and has nothing to do with true Faith at all.
Hi GB,
Scripture disagrees with you.
Here is Paul speaking with the saved pleading with them to LET THEIR MINDS BE TRANSFORMED.Rom12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
No magic here.
Hi All
God knew before angels were created, that some would sin.
God knew before man was created, that he would sin. God also knew that we had to learn the penalty for sin, who Satan the devil is, and what his evil influence can do.
But God also knew that his first born, Jesus, would not sin and pay for our sins by his sacrifice, thereby releasing us from our grave.
God's plan is much greater then just this earth. God could rule the whole universe all by himself, but he has chosen to give the honor to his son, since he is the one that redeemed us. In his plan he has chosen some of us to rule with Christ. They were predestined by God to be called before their time, but God knew who they were. But to be called did not automatically mean, being saved; case in point,Judas Iscariot. To follow Christ was no easy task, it meant you could not worship the beast, the emperor, or the image, the pope; in either case that meant torture and death.
That is why Jesus said, he who endures to the end, will sit on my throne. That is why their reward is so much greater then ours. Their reward is a new nature, spirit nature, our reward will be eternal life.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,19:01) Hi GB,
Scripture disagrees with you.
Here is Paul speaking with the saved pleading with them to LET THEIR MINDS BE TRANSFORMED.Rom12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
No magic here.
Nick….Again you leave the effectual working of GOD'S GRACE completely out of the picture and place all responsibility of our salvation on ourselves, i see no need for Christ' sacrifice or GOD'S Spirit in the scriptures you use do you, because ultimately your saying you save yourself. Your portrayal is of a weak God who really can't save anyone unless they (CHOSE ON THEIR OWN) to be saved by their own choices they make. But Scripture completely rejects that whole idea of self salvation as i have quoted many times here before, but you chose to ignore them, It's the sum of GOD'S WORD thats truth. Nick, you cant have it both way you either save yourself or are saved BY GRACE. Scripture tell me i am saved by GRACE and that (NOT) of MYSELF. But you are putting forth a complete different Gospel, the Gospel of self salvation and that is not the Gospel I believe in. I believe while we were yet sinners GOD sent His son to die for our sins, and God has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might Have Mercy on (ALL). You cant have it both way Nick. You quote Paul as putting all the saving work on the person is wrong because, Paul also said the good i would do i don't do, but the evil i wouldn't do that i do, so explain that in light of your self salvation ideologies.
Again i say to you Nick you can't have it both ways. Either were (SAVED) by GRACE or we are NOT. Doubt Helps no one and works against true Faith, and comes from the womb of fear and unbelief. We need to trust in the SAVING POWER OF GOD, and if we sin we have an advocate< Jesus Christ the Faithful Witness.peace to you……..gene
Hi GB,
When we reach the end of the road. if we do, then we will be able to see in retrospect how grace led us and empowered us.
It would be entirely foolish and presumptuous to think all things done through now are His perfect will.
The best way to check our steps now is to abide in scripture and not opinion.Quote The scripture you quoted about choosing for yourself who yo will serve was talking to carnal minded people who did not chose right So, Gene, they had a choice then? If they did not chose right, they must have had a choice. Of course they did. It would have been silly for God to put a choice before them, if they had not choice.
Quote The whole idea of Man choosing his own salvation is part of fear tactics used to control people used by most all organization.
I personally think you're using some kind of similar tactic. I'm not talking about any religion or organization. Nor am I saying anything about one “choosing his own salvation” as if to say one can demand their own salvation. You are right, it is only by grace or undeserved kindness on God's part that we might be saved.
But we have the option to choose to do this or that, to walk down a good path or a bad path. Otherwise, what would be the point of giving one the choice, and saying: Here is your choice.
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