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Hi,
If only scripture was regarded as the ultimate source of truth and supporting scriptures used to prove them then we would be able to make faster progress in understanding.
But opinion, speculation, logic, and inference are still in vogueHi,
It has become popular to stand on one verse and proclaim a doctrine.
If that was so should we not all be picking up our beds and walking?Letters written to the saints cannot rightfully be applied to the heathen.
Nick……your creating scripture to meet you ideologies the word of GOD stands and its not just one scripture you disagree with but many. You constantly use the out, that everyone else is using “HUMAN” logic or “WORLDLY” logic, and now, word are only written to Saints and no one else. Thats your way of pick and choosing which you have no way of Know who is a Saint or who is not on this Form, in fact maybe your not even a Saint and you only suppose you are, you see we can all make insinuations if we want to, but isn't it better to assume we all are of God and all trying to get a better understanding of His words together. Every person here is capable of giving all of us more understanding of God's word and everything should be considered, respected, and thought about. We are told to (GROW IN GRACE AND KNOWLEDGE) which shows non of us has it all. For we see in Part and Prophecy in part. And when i say no one i even mean the Apostles Did not either as scripture testifies showing where they argues about many things at the Jerusalem conferences with Paul and the other apostles concerning things like Circumcision and and having to keep the law and as it say there was (MUCH) disputing. My point lets all use our God given talents to further all of GOD's people everywhere.
peace to you and yours………….gene
Hi GB,
I am surprised you have never learned these things.
You must guard the treasures with care,
defend them against monstrous abuse.HI,
Most people have doctrinal filters throufgh which they unknowingly view sacred scripture.
GB is unique as he know he has such a filter and relies on it
He said
“Nick…….I believe exactly what is written , I just don't believe your understanding of what is written. When i put it through my doctrinal filter it makes sense ,”We should let the Word of God teach us.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2009,08:34) HI,
Most people have doctrinal filters throufgh which they unknowingly view sacred scripture.
GB is unique as he know he has such a filter and relies on it
He said
“Nick…….I believe exactly what is written , I just don't believe your understanding of what is written. When i put it through my doctrinal filter it makes sense ,”We should let the Word of God teach us.
Nick,
I have seen you also filter your scriptue through your doctrinal filter. I have not seen anyone on here that does not do it. I too have been guilty of it from time to time. that is why it is important to have rules for interpretation that defuse our personal ability to interpret scripture in our own interest/doctrine. The fact that many refuse to follow any agreed upon rules shows either a laziness to really study the word or an unwillingness to have their pet doctrines questioned or proven wrong.Quote that is why it is important to have rules for interpretation I agree.
Just a day ago, I found a very good set of rules here:
http://www.thercg.org/articles/troebs.htmlRule #4: God’s Word Never Contradicts Itself
Rule #5: Find Out What the Bible Really Says
Rule #6: Examine the Context
Rule #7: “Here a little, there a little”
Rule #8: The Bible Interprets ItselfI really liked this one:
Rule #9: Start With Clear Scriptures
(As opposed to starting with one unclear scripture that can be translated in a couple different ways.)This is also a good one.
Rule #10: Use More Than One Translation
(If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,12:56) Quote that is why it is important to have rules for interpretation I agree.
Just a day ago, I found a very good set of rules here:
http://www.thercg.org/articles/troebs.htmlRule #4: God’s Word Never Contradicts Itself
Rule #5: Find Out What the Bible Really Says
Rule #6: Examine the Context
Rule #7: “Here a little, there a little”
Rule #8: The Bible Interprets ItselfI really liked this one:
Rule #9: Start With Clear Scriptures
(As opposed to starting with one unclear scripture that can be translated in a couple different ways.)This is also a good one.
Rule #10: Use More Than One Translation
(If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)Hi David
Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,12:56)
This is also a good one.
Rule #10: Use More Than One Translation
(If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)You mean like the NWT and John 1:1?
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,12:56) Quote that is why it is important to have rules for interpretation I agree.
Just a day ago, I found a very good set of rules here:
http://www.thercg.org/articles/troebs.htmlRule #4: God’s Word Never Contradicts Itself
Rule #5: Find Out What the Bible Really Says
Rule #6: Examine the Context
Rule #7: “Here a little, there a little”
Rule #8: The Bible Interprets ItselfI really liked this one:
Rule #9: Start With Clear Scriptures
(As opposed to starting with one unclear scripture that can be translated in a couple different ways.)This is also a good one.
Rule #10: Use More Than One Translation
(If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)
Thanks david.Quote You mean like the NWT and John 1:1? Quote (If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)
Hi WJ. Obviously, the NWT is NOT THE ONLY TRANSLATION to translate it that way. MANY DO, in fact, some of the oldest.
Also, do you think I have “considered why the others [KJ, etc] translate it differently”?
Obviously, I have considered this extensively. That is why I would never ever start with John 1:1 as a basis for any trinity/non-trinity belief. As I have said more than once on here, regarding John 1:1:
It can be translated as “Was God” if you believe the rest of the Bible teaches a trinity. If the rest of the Bible doesn't teach a trinity, then John 1:1c must be translated “a god” as the context DEMANDS IT, (unless God is a trinity) of course.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,09:02) Hi martian,
Where?
Good debate tactic. I should have looked it up before I said it. However, I consider it of little enough value to spend much time on it and I will just wait till you do it again and then point it out.Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,12:56) Quote that is why it is important to have rules for interpretation I agree.
Just a day ago, I found a very good set of rules here:
http://www.thercg.org/articles/troebs.htmlRule #4: God’s Word Never Contradicts Itself
Rule #5: Find Out What the Bible Really Says
Rule #6: Examine the Context
Rule #7: “Here a little, there a little”
Rule #8: The Bible Interprets ItselfI really liked this one:
Rule #9: Start With Clear Scriptures
(As opposed to starting with one unclear scripture that can be translated in a couple different ways.)This is also a good one.
Rule #10: Use More Than One Translation
(If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)
Those rules are a good starting place, but I believe there is more needed.
For example – understand that the Bible is an entire book. Nothing in the New Testament was meant to be understood outside of the Old.
-And-
The entire Bible was written within a culture (Hebrew) much different then ours and the writers of scripture wrote with understanding derived from that cultural bias.The most common form of interpretation used today is called “Cut and Paste Theology”. In this method a person can take a scripture out of context put it with several others, disregarding any proper hermeneutical principles and make a doctrine out of it. Not understanding the culture or definitions of words. Using ambiguous scriptures that are misinterpreted to contradict very clear scriptures. With this type of “scholarship” a person can prove just about anything from scripture. When one actually looks at these conclusions with proper principles they completely fall apart. This is not to say that there are not scriptures that can stand on their own but always must also stand within the proper interpretive process.
The purpose and inspiration of Scripture –
II Timothy 3/16 and 17 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
Notice that God speaks of the works that scripture is to produce. “FRUIT” One must always look for fruit in whatever conclussion is derived from scripture. If you have studdied enough to have a good understanding of the plan of God for man, then seek to find how your conclussion supports that plan. What does it produce?Scripture is simply a tool provided by God and used by Christians to understand the workings of God, His character, and to understand His plan for mankind. God has always had a plan for man. He created them to have fellowship with them. Paramount in that plan is the story of the Messiah.The mission of the Messiah is two-fold. To redeem mankind through a blood sacrifice and to show by example how to have the character of God in a human being. Simply put – How to walk with God.
The world is full of philosophies that produce nothing. These mental exercises do not support and defend the honor of God or His plan for mankind. They often time depend on mystery and myth to explain their ideologies.
We start from a premiss that the “original scriptures” as written by the prophets and apostles were inspired by God Himself. No particular later translation has inspiration. There are good and bad translations. Those who penned the scriptures wrote exactly what God wanted to say and that God wants us to know the truth. God used the culture, personalities of the authors, situations, natural realm and circumstances for the purpose of teaching us. The purpose of scripture is to win the lost and to teach the saved how to become like Christ and walk with God as He did.
We must also come to grips with the fact that one book cannot contain everything about God. Not even this magnificent testimony in scripture can tell us all the facts about the actions of Jesus on this Earth. HOWEVER – do not use what scripture DOES NOT SAY as proof of your conclussion. This is simple speculation.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.1.Scripture must interpret scripture. No one has a private interpretation but all proofs must come from the word itself. A good idea and safety is to use scriptural terms to understand the meaning of a verse. Do not import words that carry with them a doctrinal bias.
2.Spend a majority of time in clear understandable scripture. Never base a conclussion on ambiguous scriptures. When one is confronted with dozens of clear scriptures on a subject and a few ambiguous scriptures always fall on the clear ones for truth.
When one reads a scripture we will allways form a hypothesis of what it means. This is fine as long as you do not stop there and you are willing to throw that idea out if further study shows it to be wrong. Never except an interpretation based only on a preconceived idea of doctrine. As example – Do not accept a definition of a word (that is different then hundreds of other times it is used in scripture) based on a doctrine you want to prove.
SOURCES
Use a variesty of translations and sources. Not every Christian can be expected to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar. Keep your sources current. Much information has been discovered in the last 60 years. Many sources are simply copies of texts written 100 years ago. This is also true of teachers and churches. Many Christans sit under the same teacher for years without ever taking the time to test what is being said. Many churches have been putting out the same nonsense for hundreds of years without every testing it themselves. Do not disregard a source because it holds less age. Discoveries such as the Dead Sea Writings and other archeological finds have had great impact on understanding the culture and languages of biblical times.CONTEXT
This is the first (and most often missed) mechanical test for an interpretation. Does your hypothesis fit within the immediate context?
Does your hypothesis fit in the general context of scripture? For this one might have to study parallel scriptures that speak about the same subject or use the same terms.CONTRADICTING THE CHARACTER OF GOD
Does you hypothesis contradict the attributes or character of God? For example – God is immortal, does your hypothesis contradict that fact?
FIGURATIVE OR LITERAL LANGUAGE
This one can be more dificult, but whenever possible ascertain if the laguage is figurtive or literal.
HISTORY, CULTURE AND GEOGRAPHY
I have already touched on culture, but it is of great importance since the Hebrew culture in which all of scripture was written is vastly different then any culture living today.This greatly impacts the language. One must “culturally” get into the mind of the author to really understand what he is writing. Historical and geographical facts surrounding the story might also bring clarity.CHAPTER AND VERSE
The original text was not separated into chapter and verse. Many times one verse is directly related to, or part of, the verses before or after it. Often they are connected by words such as “for” or “and”. The earliest (and therefore most important) Greek texts were all written in capitol letters with no punctuation marks. These were added at a later time and do not necessarily reflect the intention of the author.
BE LED BY THE SPIRIT
None of us are perfect in hearing God’s words to us. For this reason God gave us a “more sure word of prophecy”. Seek God’s leading and understanding, but know also that true hearing from God will not contradict His written word. When they do contradict eachother always give preference to the written word for your safety.
This is by no means a detailed list, but I believe if everyone honestly used, at least, these principles greater understanding would be achieved.
Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,14:10) Quote You mean like the NWT and John 1:1? Quote (If your translation is the only one that translates it that way, you should consider why the others translate it differently.)
Hi WJ. Obviously, the NWT is NOT THE ONLY TRANSLATION to translate it that way. MANY DO, in fact, some of the oldest.
Also, do you think I have “considered why the others [KJ, etc] translate it differently”?
Obviously, I have considered this extensively. That is why I would never ever start with John 1:1 as a basis for any trinity/non-trinity belief. As I have said more than once on here, regarding John 1:1:
It can be translated as “Was God” if you believe the rest of the Bible teaches a trinity. If the rest of the Bible doesn't teach a trinity, then John 1:1c must be translated “a god” as the context DEMANDS IT, (unless God is a trinity) of course.Hi David
Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2009,14:10)
It can be translated as “Was God” if you believe the rest of the Bible teaches a trinity. If the rest of the Bible doesn't teach a trinity, then John 1:1c must be translated “a god” as the context DEMANDS IT, (unless God is a trinity) of course.Of course David, but the problem that you have is the Bible doesn’t teach “Polytheism“ or “Henotheism“. Therefore translating John 1:1c as “a god” is reckless and at best dishonest.
There is only “One True God” David, not “One True God” and “a True god“.
We have had this conversation before haven’t we?
Yes, I think we have here…
WJ
We had the conversation here as well:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;hl=god
Hey, are you the sort of guy who always calls facial tissue “kleenex”?
Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2009,14:01) We had the conversation here as well: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;hl=god
Hey, are you the sort of guy who always calls facial tissue “kleenex”?
Hi DavidWhat are you trying to say David, there are different types of gods?
I suppose you are right, there are “false ones” and a “True One”.
WJ
Quote What are you trying to say David, there are different types of gods? I suppose you are right, there are “false ones” and a “True One”.
WJ–Here is where you are wrong: You take the word “true” to mean that all other gods are false. But the word “true” does not mean all else is false. Example: If I said: “WJ, you are a true trinitarian.”
What do I mean? Do I mean that the other trinitarians (and there are others) are “false trinitarians”?
No, obviously not. What I am saying is that you embody the word “trinitarian” to a degree that others don't.
And people understand when we speak this way.You are a true friend.
Does that mean my other friends are “false friends”? Nope!The word “god” means “powerful/strong/mighty one.”
2 Pet 2:11
“whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power,”Angels are relatively stronger than we are. Hence, they can be called gods, and are in scripture.
ARe the angels false gods?
No. So how is the Almighty one, the only true God?
In the same way I can say my best friend is a “true friend.” It doesn't mean other friends are false, does it?
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