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Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,19:09) Quote It is CLEAR that Peter received an office to operate in the capacity of ROCK for Jesus Christ.
Augustine says it's not that clear.One says it's “clear” because you need it to be clear, or….well, you need it to be clear. But it is obviously not. If you look at the actual words, as Augustine points out, it is not directly said. So it is not clear.
Go read “The City of God” by St. Augustine. It was extremely clear to him. You just need to find some church father to misconstrue. Besides, Augustine's teaching, like all bishops, must be seen in agreement with all other bishops. Now I'm not granting you a point. You are dead wrong. Just clarifying for all.BTW, why haven't you addressed the embarasing little flip flopping your organization has done over the years? I think the answer is that you are not interested in Truth. You are interested in promoting your little koolaid cultic organization. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Deal with these quotes from the Watchtower:
The WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:
“To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong … ” (WT, 3-1880, 83). “It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).
“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
“We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . ” (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).
“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 08 2009,06:35) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 06 2009,10:18) I don't know what the Catholic church called itself before 324 A D, but it was Constantine who gave it the name when he made this new religion, “Christianity”, the empires religion; it was then when it became the “Roman Catholic (Universal) Church”
There weren't any official popes until 533 A D, when Justinian decided that only the bishop of Rome should be called Pope (papa, father) as there were many bishops called pope in Italy.
Also, it was Justinian that decided that the pope of Rome should be the head of all the clergy.
To claim that Peter was the first pope is just plain dumb, and only dumber people would believe that.Georg
George,Your clear ignorance of Scripture and the OBVIOUS fact the you ONLY read ANTI-CATHOLIC REVISIONIST history by a kook fringe group of “teachers” is duly noted.
The term “Roman Catholic Church” was applied by the so-called “Reformers” over a millennia after you fancy it happened.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm
The term has only been adopted in the last fifty years or so UNOFFICIALLY by some in the Latin West.
And your assertion that there were no popes until 533 is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. I could list them, but I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at the moment.
Greetings CA……..If peter was the first pope….Who was the second?……Enlighten us all….OH ! BTW….There is nothing absurd about what people hold to be true…I would think that an exchange of ideas enriches the learning experience in this forum….Quote Go read “The City of God” by St. Augustine. It was extremely clear to him It was clear to him, until he perhaps read the Bible. At that point, it wasn't. Do you know what a “retraction” is? Apparently not. While augustine went with the flow for most of his life, as most Catholics do, when he looked at what the passage actually said, he really had no choice but to explain that it was up to the reader to decide how that verse should be understood, because it could easily be taken the other way….that is, the correct way.
I've noticed that when someone can't answer a question, they often introduce thoughts that have no connection to what is being discussed. If this subject of the Pope or what the Bible actually says bothers you, I understand. Continue to discuss other things.
Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 11 2009,21:14) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 08 2009,06:35) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 06 2009,10:18) I don't know what the Catholic church called itself before 324 A D, but it was Constantine who gave it the name when he made this new religion, “Christianity”, the empires religion; it was then when it became the “Roman Catholic (Universal) Church”
There weren't any official popes until 533 A D, when Justinian decided that only the bishop of Rome should be called Pope (papa, father) as there were many bishops called pope in Italy.
Also, it was Justinian that decided that the pope of Rome should be the head of all the clergy.
To claim that Peter was the first pope is just plain dumb, and only dumber people would believe that.Georg
George,Your clear ignorance of Scripture and the OBVIOUS fact the you ONLY read ANTI-CATHOLIC REVISIONIST history by a kook fringe group of “teachers” is duly noted.
The term “Roman Catholic Church” was applied by the so-called “Reformers” over a millennia after you fancy it happened.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm
The term has only been adopted in the last fifty years or so UNOFFICIALLY by some in the Latin West.
And your assertion that there were no popes until 533 is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. I could list them, but I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at the moment.
Greetings CA……..If peter was the first pope….Who was the second?……Enlighten us all….OH ! BTW….There is nothing absurd about what people hold to be true…I would think that an exchange of ideas enriches the learning experience in this forum….
I do understand what you are saying. I try to be nice to people. But to unreasonable ideas I can be ruthless. I DO believe that ideas can be silly without the person being as silly. We are all weak and fallible and gullible and ignorant. I like to point this out. I find myself giving law to the proud and grace to the humble.Quote If peter was the first pope….Who was the second?……Enlighten us all. Gladly:
“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. … To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (ibid., 3, 3, 3).
1. Notice that this was written by a man who lived while Christians were being butchered.
2. Constantine, man accused of starting “Romanism”, was not a twinkle in his daddy's eye.
3. Irenaeus was the disciple of Polycarp who was the disciple of John the beloved.
Hi CA,
Peter and Paul would disown any group who proudly claimed to be following them [1Cor3] while ignoring scripture in favour of their traditions.
They knew the living one who was the head of the church and did not set up new leadership and worldly structures based on themselves or any man.CA………Where is there any (PROOF) Peter was ever in ROM. The one who started the CATHOLIC Church was CONSTANTINE, no matter how you try to refuse it it was Him who Declared Christianity as the (STATE RELIGION) and MADE all PAGANS JOIN THE NEW FOUNDED Catholic CHURCH. Thus started the (APOSTATE CHURCH) Spoken of in 2The2, the GREAT WHORE RELIGION full of blasphemy and Idolatrous Pagan rites such as Christmas on the Dec 25 the solace of there pagan rites, and Their GODDESS ESTHAR , with all Her sexual bunny rabbits and eggs, to symbol Sex and Fertility. And changed the Sabbath day worship to their SUN GOD DAY (Sunday) to fit their day of worship.
The Catholic is nothing more then a off shoot of pure PAGANS and HER Daughters THE PROTESTANTS are the Same as HER. Both are full of the blood of true Saints that stood up against them both, like Micheal Servetus who John Calvin Had BURNED at the Stake, the exact word for word transcript of the trial still exists today. The Catholic Church murdered millions of innocent People in there Bloody history, and you have the nerve to say it is the (TRUE) Church. Absolutely (NOTHING) could be further from the truth. Tell us about when Martin Luther went to the Headquarters Church at ROME and was totally shocked , He even saw a birthday Party where the pope had a giant cake made and had naked little boys jump out of it , it made hims so sick He returned Home and started the Protestant reformation. Coming here and spinning you Catholic wed of deceits is quite typical and we could expect nothing less, But using the Scriptures to prove any is not acceptable to you. why is that? Is it because you have no true understanding of the scriptures and you are unable to debate them Here.? IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 12 2009,15:49) CA………Where is there any (PROOF) Peter was ever in ROM. The one who started the CATHOLIC Church was CONSTANTINE, no matter how you try to refuse it it was Him who Declared Christianity as the (STATE RELIGION) and MADE all PAGANS JOIN THE NEW FOUNDED Catholic CHURCH. Thus started the (APOSTATE CHURCH) Spoken of in 2The2, the GREAT WHORE RELIGION full of blasphemy and Idolatrous Pagan rites such as Christmas on the Dec 25 the solace of there pagan rites, and Their GODDESS ESTHAR , with all Her sexual bunny rabbits and eggs, to symbol Sex and Fertility. And changed the Sabbath day worship to their SUN GOD DAY (Sunday) to fit their day of worship. The Catholic is nothing more then a off shoot of pure PAGANS and HER Daughters THE PROTESTANTS are the Same as HER. Both are full of the blood of true Saints that stood up against them both, like Micheal Servetus who John Calvin Had BURNED at the Stake, the exact word for word transcript of the trial still exists today. The Catholic Church murdered millions of innocent People in there Bloody history, and you have the nerve to say it is the (TRUE) Church. Absolutely (NOTHING) could be further from the truth. Tell us about when Martin Luther went to the Headquarters Church at ROME and was totally shocked , He even saw a birthday Party where the pope had a giant cake made and had naked little boys jump out of it , it made hims so sick He returned Home and started the Protestant reformation. Coming here and spinning you Catholic wed of deceits is quite typical and we could expect nothing less, But using the Scriptures to prove any is not acceptable to you. why is that? Is it because you have no true understanding of the scriptures and you are unable to debate them Here.? IMO
gene
Gene,Me afraid to debate the Scripture? Ha! It is you who probably don't have an objective bone in your whole body. I don't think I've read a cohesive thought that would persuade a gnat come out of any of your posts. You might as well type something like this:
aksdofinsdkflsaifndsfisdlfksndfksdlfksdnflk;dflkajsdkfieinf
At least it would make more sense.
Quote The one who started the CATHOLIC Church was CONSTANTINE, no matter how you try to refuse it it was Him who Declared Christianity as the (STATE RELIGION) and MADE all PAGANS JOIN THE NEW FOUNDED Catholic CHURCH. Constantine the anti-Trinitarian Arian made a decree of toleration granting religious freedom for all religions throughout the empire. The burden of proof is upon you to show evidence that he forced anyone to join any religion.
You're as gullible as they come.
Quote Where is there any (PROOF) Peter was ever in ROM. I'm not answering this for you. I honestly don't think you would even read it. But for the rest reading this:
Ignatius of Antioch
“Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict” (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).
Dionysius of Corinth
“You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time” (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
Irenaeus
“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. … To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (ibid., 3, 3, 3).
Gaius
“It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cataphrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’” (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, Church History 2:25:5).
Clement of Alexandria
“The circumstances which occasioned . . . [the writing] of Mark were these: When Peter preached the Word publicly at Rome and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed” (Sketches [A.D. 200], in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 6, 14:1).
Tertullian
“But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood; where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John [the Baptist, by being beheaded]” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 36 [A.D. 200]).
“[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lis
ts: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (ibid., 32:2).“Let us see what milk the Corinthians drained from Paul; against what standard the Galatians were measured for correction; what the Philippians, Thessalonians, and Ephesians read; what even the nearby Romans sound forth, to whom both Peter and Paul bequeathed the gospel and even sealed it with their blood” (Against Marcion 4, 5:1 [A.D. 210]).
The Little Labyrinth
“Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter” (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).
The Poem Against the Marcionites
“In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter in mighty Rome commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down. After him, Cletus too accepted the flock of the fold. As his successor, Anacletus was elected by lot. Clement follows him, well-known to apostolic men. After him Evaristus ruled the flock without crime. Alexander, sixth in succession, commends the fold to Sixtus. After his illustrious times were completed, he passed it on to Telesphorus. He was excellent, a faithful martyr . . . ” (Poem Against the Marcionites 276–284 [A.D. 267]).
Eusebius of Caesarea
“[In the second] year of the two hundredth and fifth Olympiad [A.D. 42]: The apostle Peter, after he has established the church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as a bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years” (The Chronicle [A.D. 303]).
Peter of Alexandria
“Peter, the first chosen of the apostles, having been apprehended often and thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, at last was crucified in Rome” (Penance, canon 9 [A.D. 306]).
Lactantius
“When Nero was already reigning, Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked . . . he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God. When this fact was reported to Nero . . . he sprang to the task of tearing down the heavenly temple and of destroying righteousness. It was he that first persecuted the servants of God. Peter he fixed to a cross, and Paul he slew” (The Deaths of the Persecutors 2:5 [A.D. 318]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . .While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven. And it was nothing to marvel at, for Paul was there—he that was caught up into the third heaven” (Catechetical Lectures 6:14 [A.D. 350]).
Optatus
“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).
Pope Damasus I
“Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.
“In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed apostle Paul, who contended and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero. . . . They equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the whole world.
“The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it. The second see, however, is that at Alexandria, consecrated in behalf of blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third honorable see, indeed, is that at Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed apostle Peter, where first he dwelt before he came to Rome and where the name Christians was first applied, as to a new people” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).
Jerome
“Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord” (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]).
Augustine
“If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?” (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).
CA……….Still (NO) PROOF , in fact Jesus did not send His disciples to ROME at all , they were told to seek out the Lost sheep of tribes of Israel . The First Churches were (NOT) founded IN ROME at all. but in ASIA. Where John wrote Revelations from after Peter was already dead. And there is (NO) mention of ANY ROMAN Church in any of the letters to the Churches. Rome was (NOT) the bed rock of ANY of the Churches of GOD. NO SCRIPTURE Show it to be. Rome was the Source of powers the always persecuted the TRUE Believers, using there Authority recieved By their PAGAN Emperor to force there belief system on all or simply Kill them, as you BLOODY HISTORY HAS SHOWN, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, EVEN TO THIS PRESENT DAY (IRELAND) has proved. And as Nick said why can't you trust the Words of Scripture to support you traditions , it is because they don't support (YOUR) traditions DO THEY. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 13 2009,02:27) CA……….Still (NO) PROOF , in fact Jesus did not send His disciples to ROME at all , they were told to seek out the Lost sheep of tribes of Israel . The First Churches were (NOT) founded IN ROME at all. but in ASIA. Where John wrote Revelations from after Peter was already dead. And there is (NO) mention of ANY ROMAN Church in any of the letters to the Churches. Rome was (NOT) the bed rock of ANY of the Churches of GOD. NO SCRIPTURE Show it to be. Rome was the Source of powers the always persecuted the TRUE Believers, using there Authority recieved By their PAGAN Emperor to force there belief system on all or simply Kill them, as you BLOODY HISTORY HAS SHOWN, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, EVEN TO THIS PRESENT DAY (IRELAND) has proved. And as Nick said why can't you trust the Words of Scripture to support you traditions , it is because they don't support (YOUR) traditions DO THEY. IMO gene
faiwe;foiansdflaksdjfiawneifl;awleifnaskdfl;aslkdnf
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