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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,10:56) Who can help?
CONGRADULATIONS NICK!!! YOU HAVE EXPRESSED SEVERAL POINTS, AND ACTUALLY SAID MORE THAN FOUR SENTENCESI THINK WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS
IM VERY HAPPY!!!!
=)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,13:33) For SF
What about me?And if you check it out, i qouted the whole chapter kindof ish,
not specficaly any of those verses.And again, i didnt make any point to it,
another person, refered to that scriputure
anti-trini, says that it doesnt say that,
and than i posted that up for they can see that.i didnt argue any point, i just posted up the scripture.
and that we needed to validate it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2006,10:43) Very interesting david,
I was an avowed traditionalist catholic who refused the changes of the second Vatican Council until from my cold and fearful prison I saw the Light of Christ in a born again believer.
I wish you could tell me more about your testimony.were you literally in prison?
in the vatican?
Here are Two Topics mentioned on this thread.
Summary: The first qoute, is a small response to the question about God being more than the father, and how the jews responded to that. where i mentioned psalms 82, and how people forget to see how Jesus mentioned he was sanctfied and sent.
which is a sperate idea from being the gods refereed to ealier in that verse. so Jesus didnt correct himself, but extended the very same point.note: That Jesus said that the Father is greater before he said that the Father and him are one. With that stated, how did the jews misinterpret what Jesus meant by being one with the father, if before he mentioned that, he said the father is greater?
So, in other words, the jews Did interpret Jesus saying that he was one with the Father. the only thing left to interpret is to see what he Meant by being one with the father, and what he meant refering to gods. and comparing that to being sanctfifed and sent.
He says kills me if i do not do my fathers work.
So obvoisly he isnt correcting anyone here.And the second that i will sperate, is referring to the 1st Philipians thread. Which i will also argue,
That God said he will perserve is word, Not the English Language,
Its like when the bible mentions gay, it doesnt mean that people were gay. English words change alot. I realy cant stand the language, im happy im like bi-lingual and learning other languages that im not compelelty fluent or the bible would be really confusing. its awesome to be able to compare scritpure in other languages.Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,14:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,14:13) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 14 2010,07:13)
Hi Dennison,You said:
Quote So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God?
Was Jesus saying that he was one with God?
I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity.Your last sentence, which I bolded, says it all. You can't say that Jesus said the Father is greater because he was in the limited state of humanity, and at the same time believe that the Jews were right in accusing him of being equal to God. Jesus himself corrected the mistaken Jews, didn't he? They were wrong, just as anyone who thinks their mistake proves Jesus was God in the flesh is wrong.
You said:
Quote Is it saying that everything that Jesus has is from the father, and what Jesus possess the Holy Spirit has as well? No. He says “receive OF mine”, not “receive EVERY SINGLE THING I HAVE”. Is that what you were asking?
peace and love,
mike
Let me correct my statement, the verse before the one i posted says that
John 10: 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one. 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,————————————————
again let me correct my statement. Jesus said that BEFORE he said that the father and i are one.and than continues. Im not asking to argue against the trinity, im asking for the Interpretation.
2. well second not really because thats confusing…. i didnt ask if the Holy Spirit posseseed everything that Jesus had. im asking for the connection there.
i mean it says
that everything of the father belongs to the son correct?
than it says that the spririt of Truth other words the Holy Spirit is will not speak of himself but what what is received from Christ?
it also says after jesus says that everything of the father is his, that he clarifies that therefore thats why he is saying it, that the Spirit of Truth is is taking of what is Jesus, and showing it to us?is that correct or …… is are ya seeing something differnt. i kind of jungled it up a bit, but im sure u can understand the points..
much love bro.
Let me update what i said on the other thread.
im not holding a Trinitarian bias. Who said i was?Quote Jesus never said nor hinted that their accusation was right. Rather, he taught them the correct use of 'theos' by pointing out what was written in the OT, 'I have said you are gods' (theos). Here it is in the same text, and a clue is given:
Are you talking about this verse that Jesus talked about?Psalm 82
” 1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.”Idk doesnt seem that Jesus was talking abotu the same thing.
if we look again on verse
35: IF he called THEM gods, unto who the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (continuation of his point)36: say ye of him, whom the father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, (this is a question)
, thou blasphemest; because i said, I am the Son of God?well to me its saying that first if the writer called them go
ds, and that word is inspired by God, than it cannot be broken.
in other words why would you say that i blasphme when you know that i have been sanctfied, and sent into the world… and say its wrong for me to say i am the Son of God?Idk.. thats the way i see it.
I mean the first gods that is mentions they will die, as princes… i think its different. Jesus is says first off that he is differnt from them by saying that he was sanctified and also sent into the world.
I see differnces there. what do you think?
than he says
hey if i dont do the works of my father, dont believe me,but if i do, why dont you believe?
look at my actions, look what i have done, so that you can understand and know
that the father is in me, and I in Him.again, im not saying he is talking about the Trinity here,
usually when debating trinity your discussing about three.im just talking about this one scripture.
what is Jesus saying? are my point invalid?…. or is it ok.. kind of ish?
oh and t8 you cut off the second part of the scripture you mentioned about the Son of God.
remeber he said sanctfied and sent, i think that also should be part of your conclusion. just saying…Much love bro,
lets keep on swimming!
———————–
Summary: Rokkman made a post stating that God humbled himself. The opposition stated that there is no such verse.
I intervened and posted the scripture that he was referring to and than asked to validate it, and also added questions.
oppostion argued that first pual was preaching about humility, and than conneceted the humily of Christ.
i argued that would be true if it was worded in a different order. Why would paul compare humility to be fashioned, or to be liken into mankind? What humiliy is there abuot becoming a man.? again read the qoute to see the exteneded arguements.Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,14:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 14 2010,13:07) RM …………O really please show us where GOD said “He humbled himslef and became a man”? What bible are you reading,
Hi Gene,Right on, brother!
I've have never read that in any Bible.peace and love,
mike
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
To extend on Rokkamans point. I think he was talking about this verse right here.
again this would make sense If we believe that God and Jesus are one.
so the arguement extend to validate this scripture. to validate it we must look at context.Philippians 2
1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Than we would have to answer for verse 6, and 7.
but to answer what the writer meant by humbled, we can understand that when he wrote humble it didnt extend to his next point about obedience,
so when the word humbled was mentioned it was reffering to the last statment about being FOUND Fashioned AS Man.
How do you humble yourself by being a man if you already are a man?
Idk just food for thought.
Um i think this is in every bible.
we should all double check just to make sure.Much Love,
——————————–
Response
——————Quote (942767 @ May 15 2010,09:44) Hi SF: The scripture that you quoted from Philippians 2 states:
Quote Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The Apostle Paul by these scriptures is teaching the church about humility and not stating that Jesus was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world. The scripture states “and being in the form of God”. That is, he was in the form of God as God's Son and His Christ, but he did not let his position of authority “go to his head”, so to speak, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
But you didnt validate anything bro, to me all you said that he humbled himself to the death of the cross at a servant.
But clearly thats not what scripture is saying,What is stated is two seperate points.
from 1-5 he is talking about how a Christian mind should work,but notice on 6, how the Apostle starts off describing Jesus, not humility.
verse 5 end with “Christ Jesus”, and than begins verse 6, with “Who”.
its like saying, you should think like the “presidnet”, “who” is human, and who was poor when he was young and rich beacuse he never gave up.If its only based on humility than, why does Paul go off in a Tangent about God glofiying…, and that every tongue should confess… and etc.
so your argueing thats what Paul meant by humble, is because he wasnt concieted?The only discription that fits that idea, is that Paul stated, he took the form of a servant, and took no reputation.
but that wouldnt link with the next part, where he states he was made into the likeness of man…
Why would paul first right, that he would have no reputation, and than a form of a servant, and than mention this man was man?
question being, how do you humble yourself by being or becoming man?
First he had no reputation, and second took a form of a servant, and than was in the likeness of Man?
shouldnt it be mo
re like,
Even though he was man, he took no reputation of his own, and took the form of a servant to serve all.
but its backwards?
does that make any sense?
But here you go again stating that he humbled him self to what? being a servant? being human, or dieing in the cross? as i stated before, what did paul mean when he said humble? what did he relate that to?
Notice how Pauls states that Jesus became a servant, and than metions that he was in the likeness of man. ends a point.
and than extends saying, that being FASHIONed as a Man, he humbled himself? and than adds, by saying and was obeident unto Death, even dieing on a cross.
When Paul adds “AND” it becomes a seperate point that adds to the orginal idea or point.
so that doesnt make sense to me.
How can God inspire writing that says, he made him self no reputation, and a servant, by being in the likeness of man, instead of saying it backwards…
And i know its long, but i hope that these qoutes add to the topic.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Aug. 02 2006,13:34) Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,03:21) Jesus on the subject: 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I SAID, 'I AM THE SON OF GOD'?
Good point cubesIf we look at the background to this statement of Jesus we see that they accused him of blasphemy for saying he was the son of God. Their reason being that it would make him 'equal' with God.
Jesus then set about to explain what 'equality' with God entails – namely the prophets of old were called 'gods' because the Word of God came to them – in other words when they spoke “thus saith the Lord” it was equal to God Himself saying it.
So in like manner the son of God spoke the Words of God (bieng the Word made flesh).
So Jesus had a certain equality with his Father on earth – as he said – I and my Father are one – if you have seen me you have seen Him…
Yet he also asked God in Jn 17:5 to glorifiy him with the glory he had with God before the world. Perhaps the equality that is spoken of in Phil 2 … God made all things by Jesus Christ – equality?
To me it is all a part of the unchanging way in which He (God) works in and through creation – through His Word.JMTCW
By the way the only reason i posted the first one about Jesus and God being one is response to Cubes stating the verse about the father being greater.soo ya… not to confuse anyone of why i posted something no related to the topic.
but the second part is.
To everyone,
Can one, two or anyone, post me a verse stating that Jesus…to be… Was 'Equal to God'.
Also, what is 'the Form' of God?
If Jesus IS God then why the need to state that he was In the Form of God?
“Who, being in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal to God, but humbled himself…”Please examine this verse carefully.
Does simply being in the form of an entity make you equal to that entity?
The verse as stated seems to imply that it does…but wait…why does it need to state it?
Why not just say 'Who, being in the form of God, humbled himself..'?
Or even simpler, 'Who, being God, humbled himself…'
Also, why is he being compared to God, if the verse was meant to state that he was God? Why state that he didn't think it was 'robbery' to be equal to God? Does not that read that he was 'less than God' but thought that being in the form of God made him God, too. That he didn't think that being in the form of God should make him any 'less than' God? Isn't that what Satan thought? That he, Satan, being in the form of God, should be like God and be worshipped by man?
Perhaps because that is not what the verse says.
Perhaps because the verse should read, 'Who, being in the form of God, did not think that equality with God was something to be grasped at, but humbled himself…'
Now, examine that version.
He is in the form of God (Did you answer the question: What is the form of God?), a Spirit, God is in the Form of an awesome and Mighty Spirit.
Even though he is in the form of God, and carried out mighty works, creating the universe, the earth, mankind, in a wonderful, righteous way, perfectly actioning the word spoken by God (Yes, Jesus…to be called) created all, just as he says … But it was from the word of God, so equally, and more importantly, God…who created it all. God devised the plan, spoke the word and oversaw the process. Jesus was the actioner, through the Holy Spirit of God. I tear my hair when I see people straining at understanding this, trying to say yeah or ney: God-Jesus, Jesus-God, they both said it so this proves Jesus is God..hey, where do you ever read,'God is Jesus'?)
So, Jesus, in the form of God, does not regard being in the form of God as a reason to claim that he is God, claim equality AS God, nor WITH God, but [instead of claming equality]…
Now, again, examine both versions and make your choice.
Preload: Satan thought being in the form of God should make him equal to God, equal AS God.
This leads onto something mentioned about the Princes.
Who is a Prince? Is it not a Son of a King?
Who is King (O.T.wise)? Is it not God?
Who is the Son of God?(O.T.wise)…think carefully before answering?……………………………………..
A: There are Many Sons of God (Job 1) ….Therefore, Many Princes
But the verse states that One has fallen. Which Son of God, which 'Prince' might that be, then?
So, was Jesus(to be called…) also a 'Prince' amongst 'Princes', a 'Son of God amongst Sons of God', a Prince who proved more worthy than all the other Princes, who was called, therefore to reveal the Father to mankind and redeem mankind by performing the ultimate sacrifice to his Father, King and God (Isaac to Abraham), to faithfully exact all he was instructed to do, and therefore claim the ultimate reward, was then 'Begotten', Raised above the level of all the other Princes, to stand as 'first amongst','principle', 'unique' Son of God, and took the seat at the righthand of Power, of his Father, King and God, to finalise the grand scheme of his Father, King and God…and the rest, as they say, is …what do they say?
Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,20:53) Also, what is 'the Form' of God?
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….37;st=0 (8th post down)Phillipians 2:5-7 is teaching us to have the same righteous attitude of humility as Jesus and not teaching us about whether or not he is a deity. It even explicitly states that in verse 5. I cannot see how it can be any clearer.
note: The reference to humility comes from verse 3.
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2010,21:03) and not teaching us about whether or not he is a deity
That's what verse 6 teaches Kerwin….or maybe you can exegete that verse for us…..Incidentally one of the most incredible things I have seen while hanging around theological message board forums was a sole trinitarian create absolute havoc in a christadelphian forum thread about this verse. It was a massacre….
That's what the truth will do.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 15 2010,16:09) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2010,21:03) and not teaching us about whether or not he is a deity
That's what verse 6 teaches Kerwin….or maybe you can exegete that verse for us…..
Why would anyone think that Paul spasmatically changed the topic he was speaking about. Nature can be used to refer to the class of attitude types. In other words Jesus has the same attitude as God and we to are supposed to have that attitude which is why we are called to be righteous as he is.That attitude led Jesus to humble himself becomming a servant to all by choosing to die on the cross so that we may receive the spirit of holiness.
In this same way each of us need to look out for the interests of others and not only to our own interests.
It is a powerful teaching aimed at training us in righteousness.
Jesus, who is God, claims the Trinitarian,
is therefore equal to God, say the Trinitarian,
Empties himself becoming man, claims Scriptures,
but is not Man, but is still God, claims the Trinitarian,
Dies, claims Scriptures, but does not die, claims the Trinitarian,
But, having died, is raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God,
but raised himself claims the Trinitarian, 'raised the Temple'
(Jesus meant the raising of the Spiritual Temple of God)
And then Jesus, in glory, is raised to a 'Higher position'
Higher than that which he left, says the Scriptures
Trinity agrees here but then realise their error
(Did you spot it?) 'Higher' then than 'God'
And then what of Jesus being a man?
Is it ever said he stopped his manship?
but that Jesus acquired a Spiritual form
That he ascended to Heaven in that form
Therefore Jesus is still Man in Spiritual body form.So, according to Trinitarians, God, who is Jesus, throws off his God form, but does not, then becomes man but is still God but not the same God as the Father, except that he is because he can 'forgive sins' which only God can do so he must be God but Scripture says that Jesus himself says 'My Father gives me this power…and even you can forgive a sin..for ye are gods, also' my paraphrase…
God, who is still Jesus, dies….how?but does not die because God cannot die but Man must die to atone for the sin of Adam and Scriptures states that anyone who does not believe that Jesus did not die is not of God, for if he did not die there is not sacrifice and if there is no sacrifice there is no salvation and if there is ni salvation there is no redemption and if there is no redemption then God's word is false and if God's word is false then all is doomed, even God himself, then.So having been raised from the dead, Trinies step up again at this point having circumvented the 'how could God have died and then raised himself'? God is then raised above his God position. What Position is higher than God's position?
And then it turns out that this 'raised position' is actually 'at the righthand' of God, at his own righthand. Well, fancy that…he is RAISED to a position BELOW the position he left.
Hmmm….some promotion, some reward, eh?
Quote (JustAskin @ May 16 2010,00:09) Jesus, who is God, claims the Trinitarian,
is therefore equal to God, say the Trinitarian,
Empties himself becoming man, claims Scriptures,
but is not Man, but is still God, claims the Trinitarian,
Dies, claims Scriptures, but does not die, claims the Trinitarian,
But, having died, is raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God,
but raised himself claims the Trinitarian, 'raised the Temple'
(Jesus meant the raising of the Spiritual Temple of God)
And then Jesus, in glory, is raised to a 'Higher position'
Higher than that which he left, says the Scriptures
Trinity agrees here but then realise their error
(Did you spot it?) 'Higher' then than 'God'
And then what of Jesus being a man?
Is it ever said he stopped his manship?
but that Jesus acquired a Spiritual form
That he ascended to Heaven in that form
Therefore Jesus is still Man in Spiritual body form.So, according to Trinitarians, God, who is Jesus, throws off his God form, but does not, then becomes man but is still God but not the same God as the Father, except that he is because he can 'forgive sins' which only God can do so he must be God but Scripture says that Jesus himself says 'My Father gives me this power…and even you can forgive a sin..for ye are gods, also' my paraphrase…
God, who is still Jesus, dies….how?but does not die because God cannot die but Man must die to atone for the sin of Adam and Scriptures states that anyone who does not believe that Jesus did not die is not of God, for if he did not die there is not sacrifice and if there is no sacrifice there is no salvation and if there is ni salvation there is no redemption and if there is no redemption then God's word is false and if God's word is false then all is doomed, even God himself, then.So having been raised from the dead, Trinies step up again at this point having circumvented the 'how could God have died and then raised himself'? God is then raised above his God position. What Position is higher than God's position?
And then it turns out that this 'raised position' is actually 'at the righthand' of God, at his own righthand. Well, fancy that…he is RAISED to a position BELOW the position he left.
Hmmm….some promotion, some reward, eh?
JA……….Good post brother, People just do not Begin to see all the confusion TRINITARIANS have Caused in the World do they? One confusing statement after the other is all they produce, they have muddied the waters of truth so much hardly no one can see the truth of GOD , unless GOD reaches down and washes the mud out of their eyes, they would be hopelessly lost and confused by their garbage teachings. IMOQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2008,12:38) Hi 94,
Does God know this church you wish to lead?
Do you need a title from anyone?
You are already leading .
No, I do not need a title, but I do need to be qualified to teach others. One cannot teach others until he is taught himself.I do not want any position of authority without the anointing of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,04:53) Also, what is 'the Form' of God?
The Father has form also. The Father is in the form of God. So does this mean because the Father is in the form of God that he is not God?We are in the form of humanity, does this mean we are not human?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,08:09) And then it turns out that this 'raised position' is actually 'at the righthand' of God, at his own righthand. Well, fancy that…he is RAISED to a position BELOW the position he left. Hmmm….some promotion, some reward, eh?
Actually he returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father, God with God!In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1, 2 – John 17:5
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