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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,14:05) Hi BD,
Diversion into racial terms is not appropriate when Jesus came to unite all races in Christ.
Then why do insist on asserting claims that have no biblical basis. God said Ishmael and his descendents would be blessed but you keep saying otherwise it is not in alignment with the word of God.God fulfilling His promise is in alignment with the word of God. You have no reason to claim spiritual purity or scriptural purity above the Quran there is no biblical scripture you can give that says there will be no more scriptures coming.
These scriptures don't deny Christ they uphold the previous scripture of Christ and therefore speaking against the Quran is speaking against the witness of Christ Jesus.
Hi BD,
You assume too much.
All men in Christ are blessed.
Sons of Abraham is a common claim but God does not necessarily recognise it.Jn8.39
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,15:46) Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,05:49) bodhitharta said: Quote So as you can see Jesus said “Fear God and obey him(Jesus) because he is sent from God and speaking and acting on His behalf not that he is God in any way. bd,
Make up your mind. You found fault with trinitarians for serving more than one Lord. Now you approve of serving more than one Lord. Which is it?
You say that Jesus is not God in any way. But He is Lord. Right? thinker
He is not God or The Lord. He is the anointed of the Lord.
Bodhitharta, you are chasing the wrong tale here.Jesus was raised from the dead and made both LORD and CHRIST. To say he is not LORD denies one of the main facets of Christianity.
The Lord God of the universe, made resurrected Jesus both
“Lord” of the living and the dead, and his “anointed” priest after the order of Melchizedek.Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,01:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,15:46) Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,05:49) bodhitharta said: Quote So as you can see Jesus said “Fear God and obey him(Jesus) because he is sent from God and speaking and acting on His behalf not that he is God in any way. bd,
Make up your mind. You found fault with trinitarians for serving more than one Lord. Now you approve of serving more than one Lord. Which is it? You say that Jesus is not God in any way. But He is Lord. Right? thinker
He is not God or The Lord. He is the anointed of the Lord.
Bodhitharta, you are chasing the wrong tale here.Jesus was raised from the dead and made both LORD and CHRIST. To say he is not LORD denies one of the main facets of Christianity.
The Lord God of the universe, made resurrected Jesus both
“Lord” of the living and the dead, and his “anointed” priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Hey Paladin,
I agree. Miracles still happen!
thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Thinker, The Father is ALLAH/Yahweh/Jehovah/Rabb/Abba
The Creator, Almighty God, God Most High in fact the most beautiful names belong to God.
In Judaism they have 99 names for God and Islam they also have 99 names for God
Just so you understand
The noun God is the proper English name used for the deity of monotheistic faiths. Different names for God exist within different religious traditions:
Allah is the unique name of God used in Islam, and also by most non-Muslim Arabs. ilah, cognate to northwest Semitic El, is the generic word for a God (any deity), Allah contains the article, literally “The God”. Also, when speaking in English, Muslims often translate “Allah” as “God”. most Islamic tradition states that Allah has 99 names (Note that the names are largely descriptions of the qualities the Allah is absolute in i.e. The Merciful, The Benevolent etc…).
bd,
I am aware that the word “Allah” is the Islamic name for God. However, God revealed Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob EXCLUSIVELY. According to my understanding Muslims deny this. This would mean that the God Muslims believe in is NOT the God of the Jewish Scriptures.thinker
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,01:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,15:46) Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,05:49) bodhitharta said: Quote So as you can see Jesus said “Fear God and obey him(Jesus) because he is sent from God and speaking and acting on His behalf not that he is God in any way. bd,
Make up your mind. You found fault with trinitarians for serving more than one Lord. Now you approve of serving more than one Lord. Which is it? You say that Jesus is not God in any way. But He is Lord. Right? thinker
He is not God or The Lord. He is the anointed of the Lord.
Bodhitharta, you are chasing the wrong tale here.Jesus was raised from the dead and made both LORD and CHRIST. To say he is not LORD denies one of the main facets of Christianity.
The Lord God of the universe, made resurrected Jesus both
“Lord” of the living and the dead, and his “anointed” priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Paladin,Jesus is the Christ and if he is a mediator then he is appealing to his Lord God to accept those who follow him and whoever he is mediating for.
Now, of course lord is a word that can apply to anyone having authority but ultimately The Lord God is one Lord God.
The usage of the word “lord” has been handled in such a way that people often assume it means “God” it is one of the main reasons why some have thought Jesus is God, they think “lord” means God.
Christ is a sufficient and excellent choice that God chose himself. When we use Christ we exhibit our understanding of who is God and who is Christ.
It's funny but you will here people say that “Jesus is God”
but you won't here them saying “Christ is God” that's because they don't recognize Jesus as The Christ as they should so they grab the word “lord” and use it as the word “God”
Then they simply think “Jesus is Lord, yes Jesus is God”
thereby effectively blocking God as their object of worship and effectively leaving the work of Christ to no effect, this is the way of the Anti-Christ.
Most think that to be anti-christ is to be against Jesus but really it is against the position of Jesus. Some people think that lifting him up beyond “Christ” is a wonderful thing but that is not something for them to do because in doing so they make partners with God or worship what is not God.
Jesus is The Christ
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,03:17) bodhitharta said: Quote Thinker, The Father is ALLAH/Yahweh/Jehovah/Rabb/Abba
The Creator, Almighty God, God Most High in fact the most beautiful names belong to God.
In Judaism they have 99 names for God and Islam they also have 99 names for God
Just so you understand
The noun God is the proper English name used for the deity of monotheistic faiths. Different names for God exist within different religious traditions:
Allah is the unique name of God used in Islam, and also by most non-Muslim Arabs. ilah, cognate to northwest Semitic El, is the generic word for a God (any deity), Allah contains the article, literally “The God”. Also, when speaking in English, Muslims often translate “Allah” as “God”. most Islamic tradition states that Allah has 99 names (Note that the names are largely descriptions of the qualities the Allah is absolute in i.e. The Merciful, The Benevolent etc…).
bd,
I am aware that the word “Allah” is the Islamic name for God. However, God revealed Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob EXCLUSIVELY. According to my understanding Muslims deny this. This would mean that the God Muslims believe in is NOT the God of the Jewish Scriptures.thinker
What do you mean exclusively? First of all if God is the God of Abraham of course He is the God of both his sons Isaac and Ishmael or do you not remember God making a covenant with Abraham that applied to both his sons?(7) Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: “What will ye worship after me?” They said: “We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam).”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #133)(9) Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #136)(10) Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah. Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140)Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,21:51) Hi BD,
You assume too much.
All men in Christ are blessed.
Sons of Abraham is a common claim but God does not necessarily recognise it.Jn8.39
Then you are calling God insincere, you should read about the blessings that Ishmael was promised. God is the keeper of his Word.Also in the verse you quoted
John 8:39 (King James Version)
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Jesus recognizes the claim completely and tells them that they are not living up to that claim.
bodhitharta said:
Quote What do you mean exclusively? First of all if God is the God of Abraham of course He is the God of both his sons Isaac and Ishmael or do you not remember God making a covenant with Abraham that applied to both his sons? Boom! You have shown that your “Allah” (God) is another God. God said to Abraham, “In Isaac shall your seed be called. Ishmael was cast out of the covenant and God did not recognized him after that,
Quote Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2) After Sarah cast Ishmael out of the covenant (Gen. 21) God no longer recognized Him a covenant son of Abraham. God told Abraham to offer Isaac his ONLY son. Your Quran contradicts the Hebrew scriptures. Therefore, you serve 3 lords which are Allah, the God of the Bible and Jesus.
Your Allah may be the God of Ishmael. But the God of the Hebrews was not. Your Quran has no authority at all.
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,04:33) bodhitharta said: Quote What do you mean exclusively? First of all if God is the God of Abraham of course He is the God of both his sons Isaac and Ishmael or do you not remember God making a covenant with Abraham that applied to both his sons? Boom! You have shown that your “Allah” (God) is another God. God said to Abraham, “In Isaac shall your seed be called. Ishmael was cast out of the covenant and God did not recognized him after that,
Quote Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2) After Sarah cast Ishmael out of the covenant (Gen. 21) God no longer recognized Him a covenant son of Abraham. God told Abraham to offer Isaac his ONLY son. Your Quran contradicts the Hebrew scriptures. Therefore, you serve 3 lords which are Allah, the God of the Bible and Jesus.
Your Allah may be the God of Ishmael. But the God of the Hebrews was not. Your Quran has no authority at all.
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thinker
And just HOW did Sarah cast Ishmael out of a covenant with God?She did no such thing.
She cast them our of her house.
The covenant with Abraham to which Ishmael had a part, is the covenant of circumcision. It was not part of the covenant passed from Abraham through Moses' law.
thinker……..God did not reject Ishmael in fact he blessed Him, even after the covenant He made with Israel, the Gentiles could always inter into it if they wanted to by keeping the commandments they could sojourn with them and after a few generations were considered as one of them. ” is God the God of the Jews only” no He is the GOD of ALL including Gentiles. IMO
peace and love to you brother…………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,04:33) bodhitharta said: Quote What do you mean exclusively? First of all if God is the God of Abraham of course He is the God of both his sons Isaac and Ishmael or do you not remember God making a covenant with Abraham that applied to both his sons? Boom! You have shown that your “Allah” (God) is another God. God said to Abraham, “In Isaac shall your seed be called. Ishmael was cast out of the covenant and God did not recognized him after that,
Quote Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2) After Sarah cast Ishmael out of the covenant (Gen. 21) God no longer recognized Him a covenant son of Abraham. God told Abraham to offer Isaac his ONLY son. Your Quran contradicts the Hebrew scriptures. Therefore, you serve 3 lords which are Allah, the God of the Bible and Jesus.
Your Allah may be the God of Ishmael. But the God of the Hebrews was not. Your Quran has no authority at all.
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thinker
Sometimes I cant tell whether your joking or serious?Genesis 17
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!Are you telling me you think Abraham raised Ishmael to believe in another God? You are insulting Abraham, may God forgive you!
1 Chronicles 1:27-29 (King James Version)
27 Abram; the same is Abraham.
28 The sons of Abraham; Isaac, and Ishmael.
Genesis 25:8-10 (King James Version)
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
When Abraham died both of his sons put him to rest so what you have said is a falsehood.
Genesis 17:24-26 (King James Version)
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
Show me the verse that say that Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. There were different covenants
Genesis 21 (King James Version)
20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.Now who would you say that the God of Ishmael is when it clearly shows it here in the scripture that God was with him
Let us see who else was this God with
2 Chronicles 1
1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.Acts 7:8-10 (King James Version)
8And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
Acts 10:37-39 (King James Version)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
So the scriptures say that God was with Ishmael, Jesus, Joseph and Solomon
Now I ask you how is God being with Ishmael any different than God being with Jesus or God being with Jesus any different from God being with Joseph?
BOOM!
Quote (Gene @ July 11 2009,05:01) thinker……..God did not reject Ishmael in fact he blessed Him, even after the covenant He made with Israel, the Gentiles could always inter into it if they wanted to by keeping the commandments they could sojourn with them and after a few generations were considered as one of them. ” is God the God of the Jews only” no He is the GOD of ALL including Gentiles. IMO peace and love to you brother…………………..gene
You are right Gene. However, Ishmael was not a gentile and there was no such thing as a “Jew” at that time that was much further down the road that's why the Quran points out that flaw in the thinking of some.(14) Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #65)(8) They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #135)Abraham was not “Jewish” or “Christian” His religion simply was submitting to God i.e. Islam
(20) Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #125)Quote (Gene @ July 11 2009,05:01) thinker……..God did not reject Ishmael in fact he blessed Him, even after the covenant He made with Israel, the Gentiles could always inter into it if they wanted to by keeping the commandments they could sojourn with them and after a few generations were considered as one of them. ” is God the God of the Jews only” no He is the GOD of ALL including Gentiles. IMO peace and love to you brother…………………..gene
Gene,
God gave no covenant blessings to Ishmael. Paul said that Ishmael was NOT an heir of salvation (Galatians 4:21-28). Earthly blessings are not spiritual blessings. God was NOT the God of Ishmael!thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote You are right Gene. However, Ishmael was not a gentile and there was no such thing as a “Jew” at that time that was much further down the road that's why the Quran points out that flaw in the thinking of some. bd,
Wrong! There were indeed Jews at that time. Abraham was circumcised. It wouldn't matter anyway because Paul said that Ishmael was NOT an heir of salvation. This means that God was NOT the God of Ishmael.Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So your “allah” is NOT the God of the Bible
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,05:12) Quote (Gene @ July 11 2009,05:01) thinker……..God did not reject Ishmael in fact he blessed Him, even after the covenant He made with Israel, the Gentiles could always inter into it if they wanted to by keeping the commandments they could sojourn with them and after a few generations were considered as one of them. ” is God the God of the Jews only” no He is the GOD of ALL including Gentiles. IMO peace and love to you brother…………………..gene
Gene,
God gave no covenant blessings to Ishmael. Paul said that Ishmael was NOT an heir of salvation (Galatians 4:21-28). Earthly blessings are not spiritual blessings. God was NOT the God of Ishmael!thinker
You really don't understand what the scriptures say and Paul is speaking in Allegory as he saysGalatians 4
24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;Keep in mind that Hagar was given to Abraham and she was his wife
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
So he took his wife hagar and they became ONE flesh.
If God is the God of Abraham then He is God of all that came out of Abraham.
bodhitharta said:
Quote You really don't understand what the scriptures say and Paul is speaking in Allegory as he says Galatians 4
24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;Keep in mind that Hagar was given to Abraham and she was his wife
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
So he took his wife hagar and they became ONE flesh.
If God is the God of Abraham then He is God of all that came out of Abraham.
You missed one important detail. Sarah asked Abraham to disown Ishmael which he was reluctant to do. Then God intervened and commanded Abraham to disown Ishmael and his mother Hagar (Gen. 21 8-13). After this God does not recognize Ishmael at all. He told Abraham to offer up his ONLY son Isaac. You are ignoring the way the story ended.
You are correct that Paul says that it is allegorical. He says that Hagar and her son represent bondage and that Isaac and his mother represent covenant blessings.
God said,
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So it is written and your Quran does not change it. The scriptures cannot be broken.
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,05:01) Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,04:33) bodhitharta said: Quote What do you mean exclusively? First of all if God is the God of Abraham of course He is the God of both his sons Isaac and Ishmael or do you not remember God making a covenant with Abraham that applied to both his sons? Boom! You have shown that your “Allah” (God) is another God. God said to Abraham, “In Isaac shall your seed be called. Ishmael was cast out of the covenant and God did not recognized him after that,
Quote Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2) After Sarah cast Ishmael out of the covenant (Gen. 21) God no longer recognized Him a covenant son of Abraham. God told Abraham to offer Isaac his ONLY son. Your Quran contradicts the Hebrew scriptures. Therefore, you serve 3 lords which are Allah, the God of the Bible and Jesus.
Your Allah may be the God of Ishmael. But the God of the Hebrews was not. Your Quran has no authority at all.
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thinker
Sometimes I cant tell whether your joking or serious?Genesis 17
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!Are you telling me you think Abraham raised Ishmael to believe in another God? You are insulting Abraham, may God forgive you!
1 Chronicles 1:27-29 (King James Version)
27 Abram; the same is Abraham.
28 The sons of Abraham; Isaac, and Ishmael.
Genesis 25:8-10 (King James Version)
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
When Abraham died both of his sons put him to rest so what you have said is a falsehood.
Genesis 17:24-26 (King James Version)
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
Show me the verse that say that Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. There were different covenants
Genesis 21 (King James Version)
20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.Now who would you say that the God of Ishmael is when it clearly shows it here in the scripture that God was with him
Let us see who else was this God with
2 Chronicles 1
1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.Acts 7:8-10 (King James Version)
8And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
Acts 10:37-39 (King James Version)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
So the scriptures say that God was with Ishmael, Jesus, Joseph and Solomon
Now I ask you how is God being with Ishmael any different than God being with Jesus or God being with Jesus any different from God being with Joseph?
BOOM!
Hi BD,
God is close to all men as Paul told the evil idolatrous city of Athens.[Acts 17]That does not mean all men take advantage of that closeness and repent unto salvation.
All must repent[acts 17]
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,06:14) bodhitharta said: Quote You really don't understand what the scriptures say and Paul is speaking in Allegory as he says Galatians 4
24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;Keep in mind that Hagar was given to Abraham and she was his wife
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
So he took his wife hagar and they became ONE flesh.
If God is the God of Abraham then He is God of all that came out of Abraham.
You missed one important detail. Sarah asked Abraham to disown Ishmael which he was reluctant to do. Then God intervened and commanded Abraham to disown Ishmael and his mother Hagar (Gen. 21 8-13). After this God does not recognize Ishmael at all. He told Abraham to offer up his ONLY son Isaac. You are ignoring the way the story ended.
You are correct that Paul says that it is allegorical. He says that Hagar and her son represent bondage and that Isaac and his mother represent covenant blessings.
God said,
Quote I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So it is written and your Quran does not change it. The scriptures cannot be broken.
thinker
You are completely wrong the scripture does not say Abraham disowned his son Ishmael, if that was so Ishmael would not have been there to bury Abraham along with Isaac.Also Abraham was granted that Ishmael should live before the Lord and also I provided the scripture to you that clearly states that God was with Ishmael and you are right the scripture cannot be wrong.
However, you are wrong according to the scriptures.
It doesn't matter what the allegory represents because as you have admitted Hagar and her son were sent away free and under no bondage and was blessed directly by God. If you look at the middle east today you will see that God has more than kept his promise to Ishmael.
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,05:12) Quote (Gene @ July 11 2009,05:01) thinker……..God did not reject Ishmael in fact he blessed Him, even after the covenant He made with Israel, the Gentiles could always inter into it if they wanted to by keeping the commandments they could sojourn with them and after a few generations were considered as one of them. ” is God the God of the Jews only” no He is the GOD of ALL including Gentiles. IMO peace and love to you brother…………………..gene
Gene,
God gave no covenant blessings to Ishmael. Paul said that Ishmael was NOT an heir of salvation (Galatians 4:21-28). Earthly blessings are not spiritual blessings. God was NOT the God of Ishmael!thinker
Ishmael was in fact in covenant with God.When he was circumcised, it was becasue he was in covenant relation with Jehovah, God of Abraham. This covenant covered all males who were his seed, or males in his house.
Even in the Exodus from Egypt, PRIOR to the lawgiving of Moses, God established that servants were to be circumcised to be in covenant – “And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.” [Exo 12:43-45]
Ishmael was in circuncision covenant with God, but it was not the same law covenant that was passed down through Isaac, and Jacob.
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