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TO ALL:
Mikeboll wants us to look to the teachings of Eusebius on the expression “firstborn of all creation.” This is Mike's way of causing us to look away from what the scriptures expressly say. Mike is losing his battles here so he must invoke sources other than the scripture itself to divert our attention from the scripture. The Greek “ktisis” (lit. “creature”) more often than not refers to mankind and then creatures in general. But the expression “pasa ktisis” (lit. “all creation”) ALWAYS refers to all mankind.
There are only five instances where we find the full expression “pasa ktisis” in the new testament and in each instance it is a reference to mankind only:
1. Mark 16:15: “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
This is self explanatory.
2. Romans 8:22-23: “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Paul referred to the “whole creation” (pasa ktisis) as “they” (Gentiles). He said that “they” (Gentiles) like we (Jews) are waiting for the adoption as sons by the redemption of the body. Paul had previously indicated that he was writing to Jews (“them that know the law”, 7:1). Therefore, he says, that the “whole creation” (Gentiles) and “we” (Jews) are awaiting the adoption as sons by the redemption of the body.
I hate to break the news to Mikeboll but the “pasa ktisis” here is mankind alone, Gentiles specifically. For the “pasa ktisis” will receive the adoption as sons by the redemption of the body. Animals and plants will not be adopted as sons. This adoption of the “pasa ktisis” will result in Christ becoming the “firstborn of many BROTHERS.”
3. Colossians 1:15: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
It should go without saying that Christ is the firstborn of His kind. Therefore, the expression “every creature” (pasa ktisis) means “all mankind.” Christ is the firstborn OF MEN!
4. Colossians 1:23: “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister”
Paul said that the gospel was preached to “every creature.” This should be self explanatory as the verse in Mark 16. The gospel was not preached to the animals and plants. Paul said that he was made a minister (servant) to “every creature.” He was not made a servant to the animals and the plants! He ate them.
5. Revelation 5:13: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
This is self explanatory as it refers to the redeemed alone giving praise to the Father and the Lamb.
These are the only verses inwhich we find the full expression “every creature” (pasa ktisis) and in each instance it is CLEAR that mankind only is in view.
Check mate Mikester!
“It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.”
http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html
WHO CARES WHAT EUSEBIUS THOUGHT? GIVE US THE SCRIPTURE MIKE!
GIVE – US – THE – SCRIPTURE!
the Roo
Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY?
We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father,
Question: Based on the fact that Eusebius thought Jesus was “prototokos pasa ktisis” BEFORE ALL THE AGES, do you think he would have agreed with you that “pasa ktisis” ALWAYS REFERS TO MANKIND?
Btw Jack, as you so often do, you have presented evidence AGAINST your view in your evidence to support your view:
5. Revelation 5:13: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
Considering verse 11 speaks of millions of angels being involved in these praises, and considering that mankind doesn't generally live “under the earth” or “in the sea” or even “in heaven”, it is very clear that Rev 5:13 disproves the very thing you use it to prove.
Anyway, that is for you to avoid another time. Right now, just put your money where your mouth is and explain how, since you seem to know about this “only mankind” thing, Eusebius, who was considered to be a very learned theologian, didn't.
mike
Mikeboll said:
Quote Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY?
First, because I am not in the habit of taking fragmented quotes and drawing conclusions. That's YOUR method Mike. I gave you a quote from Eusebius which indicated that he “could have” thought that “all creation” meant all mankind. You're just trying to twist people's arms. Do you think of yourself as some kind of intimidator or something?I have answered you most directly on the apostle's Paul's statements. No ambuigity there. Right?
Second, I don't give a hoot what Eusebius believed. Give me the scripture Mike! You are the only one here who cares about Eusebius. You are trying to take people's attention away from the testimony of the scriptures.
Mike:
Quote 5. Revelation 5:13: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Considering verse 11 speaks of millions of angels being involved in these praises, and considering that mankind doesn't generally live “under the earth” or “in the sea” or even “in heaven”, it is very clear that Rev 5:13 disproves the very thing you use it to prove
Where does Revelation 5:13 speak of angels? Go back to verse 9. All creation “pasa ktisis” is singing saying, “You have redeemed US to God.” Did the Lamb redeem angels to God Mikester? No! The Lamb redeemed mankind alone for only mankind needed redemption.Hmmmm…. I wonder why you answered only one of five texts I gave. You claim you answer everything and then pass over four of the five proof texts I gave! Answer each one Mike! I dare you!
Mike:
Quote Anyway, that is for you to avoid another time. Right now, just put your money where your mouth is and explain how, since you seem to know about this “only mankind” thing, Eusebius, who was considered to be a very learned theologian, didn't.
I am not intimated by you Mike! I don't care one way or the other what the man you suggest betrayed his friend Arius thought!Answer all the texts I gave which use the full expression “pasa ktisis” and stop your Eusebius rant. If you are confident in your interpretation of “pasa ktisis” then let's have your explanation of ALL the texts I gave inwhich the expression is used. My theory is that you are not confident so you lean on Eusebius. You're insecure Mike!
the Roo
Hi Jack,
I said:
Quote Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY? You said:
Quote First, because I am not in the habit of taking fragmented quotes and drawing conclusions. That's YOUR method Mike. I gave you a quote from Eusebius which indicated that he “could have” thought that “all creation” meant all mankind. You're just trying to twist people's arms. Do you think of yourself as some kind of intimidator or something? Sorry Jack, but that doesn't answer the question. It is a reason that you rationalize to NOT answer the question. If that is the case – that you just don't WANT to answer the question, then why didn't you say so weeks ago? First, everyone can draw there own conclusions as to what it is about this question that scares you so badly. Second, I could soundly refute any of your claims that pasa ktisis always refers to mankind, because you are (a) unable to produce any reliable proof to support your opinion, and (b) you are unable to nullify the proof I presented to refute your claim. Either way, it is a win for the truth.
If you want to discuss your other points, we still have a debate thread for this, despite the fact that you tried to have t8 delete it.
All you have to do is answer the simple honest questions that have been waiting there for you, and I will DIRECTLY answer each topical question you put forth, just as I always have.Btw, that Eusebius letter is less of a “fragment” than Thomas saying “My Lord and my god”. In fact, wasn't it you who told me that this letter was the basis for the actual Nicene Creed (and then the trinitarians changed it to say what they wanted it to say)?
But you say you won't answer to a “fragment”? Okay, here's WJ's proud introduction, the whole letter, and the source:
WJ said:
Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching. Source
Now it's not a fragment. And I'm not asking you to “give a hoot” what Eusebius' beliefs were, just to acknowledge that he, for one, didn't seem to think pasa ktisis referred to only mankind. And I think anyone will agree that someone who spoke the NT language naturally, and was called “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” would know a little more than you about the meaning of pasa ktisis.
What excuse will you come up with now?
Just answer the question, Roo. 
mikeKJ,
In your debate with t8, you are discussing 'True God and Eternal life and who is alotted to which phrase.
Have you considered the more lucid verse in John 17:3, which speaks of the same thing and is directly from Jesus?Jesus quit clearly states that his Father is the 'Only True God'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,12:32) Hi Jack, I said:
Quote Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY? You said:
Quote First, because I am not in the habit of taking fragmented quotes and drawing conclusions. That's YOUR method Mike. I gave you a quote from Eusebius which indicated that he “could have” thought that “all creation” meant all mankind. You're just trying to twist people's arms. Do you think of yourself as some kind of intimidator or something? Sorry Jack, but that doesn't answer the question. It is a reason that you rationalize to NOT answer the question. If that is the case – that you just don't WANT to answer the question, then why didn't you say so weeks ago? First, everyone can draw there own conclusions as to what it is about this question that scares you so badly. Second, I could soundly refute any of your claims that pasa ktisis always refers to mankind, because you are (a) unable to produce any reliable proof to support your opinion, and (b) you are unable to nullify the proof I presented to refute your claim. Either way, it is a win for the truth.
If you want to discuss your other points, we still have a debate thread for this, despite the fact that you tried to have t8 delete it.
All you have to do is answer the simple honest questions that have been waiting there for you, and I will DIRECTLY answer each topical question you put forth, just as I always have.Btw, that Eusebius letter is less of a “fragment” than Thomas saying “My Lord and my god”. In fact, wasn't it you who told me that this letter was the basis for the actual Nicene Creed (and then the trinitarians changed it to say what they wanted it to say)?
But you say you won't answer to a “fragment”? Okay, here's WJ's proud introduction, the whole letter, and the source:
WJ said:
Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching. Source
Now it's not a fragment. And I'm not asking you to “give a hoot” what Eusebius' beliefs were, just to acknowledge that he, for one, didn't seem to think pasa ktisis referred to only mankind. And I think anyone will agree that someone who spoke the NT language naturally, and was called “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” would know a little more than you about the meaning of pasa ktisis.
What excuse will you come up with now?
Just answer the question, Roo.
mike
bump for KJQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,12:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,12:32) Hi Jack, I said:
Quote Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY? You said:
Quote First, because I am not in the habit of taking fragmented quotes and drawing conclusions. That's YOUR method Mike. I gave you a quote from Eusebius which indicated that he “could have” thought that “all creation” meant all mankind. You're just trying to twist people's arms. Do you think of yourself as some kind of intimidator or something? Sorry Jack, but that doesn't answer the question. It is a reason that you rationalize to NOT answer the question. If that is the case – that you just don't WANT to answer the question, then why didn't you say so weeks ago? First, everyone can draw there own conclusions as to what it is about this question that scares you so badly. Second, I could soundly refute any of your claims that pasa ktisis always refers to mankind, because you are (a) unable to produce any reliable proof to support your opinion, and (b) you are unable to nullify the proof I presented to refute your claim. Either way, it is a win for the truth.
If you want to discuss your other points, we still have a debate thread for this, despite the fact that you tried to have t8 delete it.
All you have to do is answer the simple honest questions that have been waiting there for you, and I will DIRECTLY answer each topical question you put forth, just as I always have.Btw, that Eusebius letter is less of a “fragment” than Thomas saying “My Lord and my god”. In fact, wasn't it you who told me that this letter was the basis for the actual Nicene Creed (and then the trinitarians changed it to say what they wanted it to say)?
But you say you won't answer to a “fragment”? Okay, here's WJ's proud introduction, the whole letter, and the source:
WJ said:
Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching. Source
Now it's not a fragment. And I'm not asking you to “give a hoot” what Eusebius' beliefs were, just to acknowledge that he, for one, didn't seem to think pasa ktisis referred to only mankind. And I think anyone will agree that someone who spoke the NT language naturally, and was called “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” would know a little more than you about the meaning of pasa ktisis.
What excuse will you come up with now?
Just answer the question, Roo.
mike
bump for KJ
MikeSo what are you trying to prove? He has answered you.
He doesn't give a hoot what Eusebius believed.
He has given you scripture that contradicts what you think Eusebius believed which seems is not enough for you.
Do you put your faith in and build your doctrines on what a third century figure says over the scritpures?
Why don't you address the scriptures rather than what you think Eusebius believed?
Its OK to speak of them to add validity to what the scriptures says, but anything beyond that is conjecture!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,12:05) Mike So what are you trying to prove? He has answered you.
He doesn't give a hoot what Eusebius believed.
He has given you scripture that contradicts what you think Eusebius believed which seems is not enough for you.
Do you put your faith in and build your doctrines on what a third century figure says over the scritpures?
Why don't you address the scriptures rather than what you think Eusebius believed?
Its OK to speak of them to add validity to what the scriptures says, but anything beyond that is conjecture!
WJ
I'm sorry WJ,I wasn't aware there were Greek scriptures that told us that the Greek words for “every creature” didn't really mean “every creature”. Could you tell me what book that is in?
Talk about your conjecture…..pasa ktisis only refers to mankind……because I say so!
Why don't you or Roo just answer the question. In fact, why don't you or Roo EVER JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION?
Btw, I DO absolutely believe that Eusebius knew much more about the Koine Greek than Jack does, don't you? If not, why? What credentials does Roo have that make you so convinced that he is right? Oh, that's right…….he has the “it helps to validate the trinity so therefore I must believe it” credentials.
Get real and answer a hard question every now and then, Keith.
mike
Hi WJ,
You said:
Quote He has given you scripture that contradicts what you think Eusebius believed which seems is not enough for you. Let me get this straight. He has listed 5 scriptures that say “every creature”. Eusebius also thought “pasa ktisis” meant “every creature”. HIS UNFOUNDED CONJECTURE is that “pasa ktisis” only refers to mankind EVEN WITH THE INCLUSION OF REV 5:13 WHICH CLEARLY CONTRADICTS HIS CONJECTURE. How is it again that his scriptures contradict what Eusebius believed?
You said:
Quote Its OK to speak of them to add validity to what the scriptures says, but anything beyond that is conjecture! It's OK to do that? Good, because that's ALL I'm using Eusebius for. To validate what scripture already tells us – “pasa ktisis” refers to all creation, not just mankind.
Thanks for your permission and approval Keith.
Are you ready to answer the hard question yet?
mike
Bump for Roo
Hi Jack,
I said:
Quote Why don't you stop avoiding the issue and just answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY? You said:
Quote First, because I am not in the habit of taking fragmented quotes and drawing conclusions. That's YOUR method Mike. I gave you a quote from Eusebius which indicated that he “could have” thought that “all creation” meant all mankind. You're just trying to twist people's arms. Do you think of yourself as some kind of intimidator or something? Sorry Jack, but that doesn't answer the question. It is a reason that you rationalize to NOT answer the question. If that is the case – that you just don't WANT to answer the question, then why didn't you say so weeks ago? First, everyone can draw there own conclusions as to what it is about this question that scares you so badly. Second, I could soundly refute any of your claims that pasa ktisis always refers to mankind, because you are (a) unable to produce any reliable proof to support your opinion, and (b) you are unable to nullify the proof I presented to refute your claim. Either way, it is a win for the truth.
If you want to discuss your other points, we still have a debate thread for this, despite the fact that you tried to have t8 delete it.
All you have to do is answer the simple honest questions that have been waiting there for you, and I will DIRECTLY answer each topical question you put forth, just as I always have.Btw, that Eusebius letter is less of a “fragment” than Thomas saying “My Lord and my god”. In fact, wasn't it you who told me that this letter was the basis for the actual Nicene Creed (and then the trinitarians changed it to say what they wanted it to say)?
But you say you won't answer to a “fragment”? Okay, here's WJ's proud introduction, the whole letter, and the source:
WJ said:
Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching. Source
Now it's not a fragment. And I'm not asking you to “give a hoot” what Eusebius' beliefs were, just to acknowledge that he, for one, didn't seem to think pasa ktisis referred to only mankind. And I think anyone will agree that someone who spoke the NT language naturally, and was called “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” would know a little more than you about the meaning of pasa ktisis.
What excuse will you come up with now?
Just answer the question, Roo.
mike“It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.”
The Author:
M.A. Oriental Languages
Ph.D. Education
Anthropologist
Consulting Engineer
Inventor
Research Scientist in Human Physiology
Arthur C. Custance (1910-1985)
http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html
the Roo
S'truth,
It is for good reason that the phrase “Too much learning has dulled the mind”
Do you guys really need to go to such length to 'prove' from external sources – that COULD BE EQUALLY FLAWED what is a very basic and simple concept.
Yes, Human Kind. Very simple – very easy.
Which [animal] sinned that it should need forgiveness, except that “Thank you Father that ALL that you gave me have been saved Except that one – the Son of Perdition”
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 08 2010,10:15) “It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.” The Author:
M.A. Oriental Languages
Ph.D. Education
Anthropologist
Consulting Engineer
Inventor
Research Scientist in Human Physiology
Arthur C. Custance (1910-1985)
http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html
the Roo
WJ said:
Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching. Source
Now it's not a fragment. And I'm not asking you to “give a hoot” what Eusebius' beliefs were, just to acknowledge that he, for one, didn't seem to think pasa ktisis referred to only mankind. And I think anyone will agree that someone who spoke the NT language naturally, and was called “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” would know a little more than you and Arthur Custance about the meaning of pasa ktisis.
What excuse will you come up with now? Just answer the question, Roo.
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ July 08 2010,11:41) EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO PROVE SCRIPTURES … is in Scriptures.
Good JA,Then practice what you preach. Scripture says Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE. That means before Satan.
Scripture says Jesus was BEGOTTEN BY GOD IN PSALM 2:7. THE HEBREW WORD “YALAD” MEANS to bear, bring forth, beget, of child birth, to beget (a child)
What it DOESN'T mean is to appoint someone to a postition or title or anoint them with holy spirit. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yalad.htmlScripture says Jesus is THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
It's when people such as you and Roo start claiming the actual Greek words don't mean what they clearly DO mean that I have to enlist other sources just to prove to you guys that they DO ACTUALLY MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. But when you see that proof, you claim “everything you need is in scripture” so you don't have to actually deal with it.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
Do you think that the earth, created by God, was made out of something that always existed? How about the Son, was He made out of something that always existed?
Just wondering what you think here. Thanks!Quote (JustAskin @ July 08 2010,11:40) S'truth, It is for good reason that the phrase “Too much learning has dulled the mind”
Do you guys really need to go to such length to 'prove' from external sources – that COULD BE EQUALLY FLAWED what is a very basic and simple concept.
Yes, Human Kind. Very simple – very easy.
Which [animal] sinned that it should need forgiveness, except that “Thank you Father that ALL that you gave me have been saved Except that one – the Son of Perdition”
JA,I agree with you. I am just giving Mike what he wants. Every time I show him from scripture that “pasa ktisis” is a Hebraism for “all mankind” he gives me Eusebius in reply. So I thought if I posted the language credentials of my source Mike might stop ranting about Eusebius.
Hopefully Mike will now limit our discussions to “what saith the scriptures.”
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 08 2010,10:45) Quote (JustAskin @ July 08 2010,11:40) S'truth, It is for good reason that the phrase “Too much learning has dulled the mind”
Do you guys really need to go to such length to 'prove' from external sources – that COULD BE EQUALLY FLAWED what is a very basic and simple concept.
Yes, Human Kind. Very simple – very easy.
Which [animal] sinned that it should need forgiveness, except that “Thank you Father that ALL that you gave me have been saved Except that one – the Son of Perdition”
JA,I agree with you. I am just giving Mike what he wants. Every time I show him from scripture that “pasa ktisis” is a Hebraism for “all mankind” he gives me Eusebius in reply. So I thought if I posted the language credentials of my source Mike might stop ranting about Eusebius.
Hopefully Mike will now limit our discussions to “what saith the scriptures.”
KJ
Exactly!Conjecture seems to be the way Mike likes to work, i.e. “There is no water in the glass”, mikes response, “but just because there is no water in the glass doesn't mean there wasn't any water in the glass”. Duh, that is not the contention, the fact is there is no water in the glass.
But that is not enough for this guy!
Endless speculation. Mike should have been a magician or a politician IMO.
Mike has no scriptural facts to backup his theorys, even his Arian brothers disagree with him, yet he constantly is building straw man houses!
WJ
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