Paladin's unintentional concession

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,19:37)

Paladin said: Quote What John said “John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” First; I do not see “Adonay” anywhere in John's record. Paladin, You altogether ignored John's statement in verse 41, Quote These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM Isaiah saw Adonay's glory. John applied it to Jesus saying that Isaiah saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM. Quote The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to Him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah which Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Jehovah; and from this the inference is irrestible that John regarded Jesus as the Jehovah which Isaiah saw. (Barne's Notes p. 314) Maybe you don't see for the same reasons the Jews did not see. God had judicially blinded them so that they could not see. I hope that you are not under such judgment and that you will come to see. Paladin said: Quote Man cannot kill God! “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and SLAIN: 24 Whom God hath raised up,” Your view is thoroughly Gnostic and anti-Christian. Quote Feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28) The text clearly says that God shed His OWN blood. thinker

thinker)
Paladin said:

Quote

What John said “John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” First; I do not see “Adonay” anywhere in John's record. (thinker) Paladin, You altogether ignored John's statement in verse 41,

Quote

These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM

(thinker)

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Isaiah saw Adonay's glory. John applied it to Jesus saying that Isaiah saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM.

(P)
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw “autou” [his] glory, and spake of “autou” [him].

“His,” “Him,”  Hmmmmm. a moment!  Nope! adonay is not spelled “a” – “u” – “t” – “o” – “u.” I really seriously don't think
“Adonay” is in the verse in John's statement.

(thinker)

Quote

The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to Him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah which Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Jehovah; and from this the inference is irrestible that John regarded Jesus as the Jehovah which Isaiah saw. (Barne's Notes p. 314) (thinker) Maybe you don't see for the same reasons the Jews did not see. God had judicially blinded them so that they could not see. I hope that you are not under such judgment and that you will come to see.

(P)Well, Goooolly! Why didn't you TELL ME. You have a COMMENTARY! (gasp!)

I have ISAIAH saying “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high” [Isa 52:13]

Just because YOU have a COMMENTATOR stating that John is addressing a passage in the Psalms-

(thinker)

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PSALM 110:5  ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!

[page 1 of the thread]

And Isaiah was the one who “saw his glory and spake of him.” ISAIAH said “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high” [Isa 52:13] If that is not a reference to Isaiah seeing his glory, please explain what it is.

And this is followed IMMEDIATELY by   52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?  2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.  4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace
was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.  10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

This correctly follows the discription recorded in John 12:37-41.

Isaiah “saw his glory” [52:13]

“and spake of him” [52:14 – 53:12]

The separation into chapters and verses did not come until much later, so the immediacy of the remarks following one upon another tend me toward believing this is the source of John's remark in 12:37-41. My conclusion carries at least as much credence as Barnes commentary. Probably more, if Barnes really references Psalm 110 as his source for Isaiah.

As for your reference to Acts 20:28, you require me to keep my post short and brief, so please begin a new thread with this as a starting point. Or I will, if you prefer. But it won't be short and brief if I do it.

[Paladin]

Quote (Cindy @ June 25 2009,20:04)

Quote (Paladin @ June 25 2009,08:28) Quote (Paladin @ June 25 2009,08:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,03:19) Paladin said: Quote When two sit facing one another, they are BOTH at the other's right hand. Jehovah Adonay is at the right hand of resurrected Messiah, after the same fashion as the logos was “face to face” “with” God. I am glad to see you publickly concede the issue. Paladin, I am trying to picture what you are saying but I find it difficult. You say that the right hand means face to face. Wouldn't “face to face” imply that they are in front of the other? And wouldn't “face to face” also imply a relationship that is equal? Besides, verses 6-7 clearly say that Adonay will judge the nations. We know that it is the Messiah who does the judging. Let's not forget the account of Isaiah's vision of Adonay's glory (chap 6), Quote In the year that king Uzziah died, I saw Adonay sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphim; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; the whole land is filled with His glory (Isaiah 6:1-3) You can take the Apostle John's word for it that Isaiah had seen the glory of Jesus, Quote Though He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed.” Therefore, they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their minds and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them….” These things Isaiah said when he saw His (Christ's) glory and spoke of Him (Jesus) John 12:37-41. John clearly said that Isaiah had seen the glory of Jesus whom he called “Adonay.” Have you heard the saying “There is virtue in brevity?” Please keep your reply brief. There is no need for a lengthy dissertation. thanks, thinker Quote John clearly said that Isaiah had seen the glory of Jesus whom he called “Adonay.” What John said “John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” First; I do not see “Adonay” anywhere in John's record. Second, “Isaiah saw,” is a reference to what Isaiah FORESAW as a prophet. And what did Isaiah foresee? Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, HE SHALL BE EXALTED AND EXTOLLED AND BE VERY HIGH. Third: God is not, repeat NOT God's servant. God's servant is a man who suffers AS A MAN, dies AS A MAN, and is raised AS A MAN. El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] God testified – that one maiden of Israel was to bear a child, and that the child's name is to be called Immanuel; which means El is with us. So Immanuel is a son of el named Jehovah. BUT, Jehovah tells us that none of the sons of ANY El, is equal with the El named Jehovah; “For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah (the LORD)? who among the sons of El'm (the mighty) can be likened unto Jehovah (the LORD)?” [Psa 89:6] Isa 40:25 “To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.” and 46:5 “To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?” both indicate God's opinion as to the “equality with God” issue. Prophecy testified – Messiah Jesus is the seed of the woman of [Gen 3:15]; seed of Abraham[Gen 12:1-3][Gal 3:16]: seed of Isaac[Gen 26:4]; seed of Jacob[Gen 28:14]; seed of Jesse[Isa 11:10][Rom 15:12]; seed of David[Psa 132:11][Jer 23:5-6]; seed of Mary[Gen 3:15]. Zechariah testified – “…Behold THE MAN whose name is the Branch…” [Zech 6:12] “Awake o sword against my shepherd, and against the MAN that is my fellow…”[Zech 13:7] David testified – Messiah was prophecied to be a MAN at God's right hand; “Let thy hand be upon THE MAN of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.” [Psa 80:17] “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” [Psa 41:9] AND “A MAN MINE EQUAL;” “For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: 13 But it was thou, A MAN MINE EQUAL, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.” [Psa 55:12-14] Isaiah testified – “He is despised and rejected of men; A MAN of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:…” [Isaiah 53:3] Jesus testified – “But now ye seek to kill me, A MAN what hath told you the truth…”[John 8:40] Moses testified – “The Lord God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren…”[Deu 18:15] “I will raise them up a prophet FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN” [Deu 18:18] Paul testified – “…(God) said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my own heart, which shall fulfill all my will. Of THIS MAN'S SEED hath God according to his promise raised unto Isreael a saviour, Jesus. [Acts 13:22-23] “For there is one God, and one mediator between God an d men, THE MAN [anthrwpos] Christ Jesus;” ; which tells us that Jesus is functioning AS A MAN and MEDIATOR. Luke testified – “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” [Acts 2:22] Man cannot kill God! “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and SLAIN: 24 Whom God hath raised up,” [Acts 2:23-24] ADDENDUM Jesus was a MAN in prophecy Jesus was a MAN with a mission Jesus is a MAN at God's right hand. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” [Heb 13:8] Jesus is a man sitting next to God the Father on His Throne? I do not think so. John 17:5 tells us:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.” What do you think that glory was?  He was a Spirit being. That is what He was before He came to earth to save us from eternal death.  Hod be with you. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Sister;

There were many things “Before the world was” but that does not mean we were there to consider them.

While it is true, Jesus had glory with the Father “before the world was” it does NOT mean he was in heaven with the father to consider that glory.

Paul says Jesus DID NOT predate Adam;
I Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the LAST Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening SPIRIT. 46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST WHICH WAS SPIRITUAL [Jesus], but that which is natural [Adam]; and afterward that which is spiritual.

And Jesus reminds us that he existed in prophecy before Abraham began.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus references one of several things that took place prior to creation. God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation.

Jesus references one of several things that were prepared before the world was created:
HIDDEN WISDOM TO BE REVEALED FOR OUR GLORY:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory:

CHOSE US IN CHRIST BEFORE THERE WAS A CHRIST:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen US in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

ORDAINED GOOD WORKS FOR THE SAINTS TO PERFORM:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.

CALLED US WITH A HOLY CALLING IN CHRIST BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN,

PROMISED US ETERNAL LIFE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN;

PREPARED A SACRIFICIAL LAMB BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you,

PROMISED JESUS GLORY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
AS EXPRESSED IN ISAIAH 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

AND FULFILLED IN John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

And John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

WHICH SERVED AS INCENTIVE FOR JESUS TO FULFILL HIS MISSION: Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR THE JOY that was SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross, DESPISING the SHAME, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO SUFFER THE DEATH PREPARED FOR HIM?
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Col 1:16 is a reference to the fact that Jesus made changes in the universe; specifically in the realm of heavenly authorities; WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.

COL 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus is “before all things” because he was elevated to first position in the creation, as the first one to be raised from the dead, without a intermediate prophet; and the first one raised from the dead to die no more. Col 1: 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

When Jonah preached to Ninevah that their city would be destroyed in forty days, the citizens of Ninevah repented, and God adjusted the timeing of the judgment on them for one generation, which is how long it took for the next generation of citizens to rebel against God. It was an adjustment to the age of their destruction.

The Hebrew author recognizes that when the Mosaic dispensation (old covenant) ended, and the new covenant began, it was another “adjustment” of the ages. THAT is the reference of Heb 1:2 and Heb 11:3

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the aiwns [ages];

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the aiwns [worlds] were [adjusted] framed by the reema [word] of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw “autou” [his] glory, and spake of “autou” [him]. “His,” “Him,”  Hmmmmm. a moment!  Nope! adonay is not spelled “a” – “u” – “t” – “o” – “u.” I really seriously don't think “Adonay” is in the verse in John's statement.

Paladin,
Whose glory did Isaiah see? And to whom did John apply the prophecy? Answer: Isaiah saw Adonay's glory and John applied the prophecy to “Him.” So who was the “Him” in the narrative? Please answer plainly. All can see that you are circumventing my point.

What does Isaiah 52-53 have to do with Isaiah 6 and John 12? The old testament contains prophecies of both Christ's humiliation and his glory. What do you think you prove by invoking prophecies that pertain to Christ's humiliation? Do such prophecies cancel out the prophecies of His glory?

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin……….Why can't these people understand these things? You have correctly explained , It just is amazing at the depth of indoctrination in the minds of men. If they had truly loved the truth they could see these things clearly. Thank for your Posts brother they are certainly needed Here. Let the Spirit continue to have it's perfect work brother. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………….gene

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 26 2009,02:43)

Paladin said: Quote John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw “autou” [his] glory, and spake of “autou” [him]. “His,” “Him,”  Hmmmmm. a moment!  Nope! adonay is not spelled “a” – “u” – “t” – “o” – “u.” I really seriously don't think “Adonay” is in the verse in John's statement. Paladin, Whose glory did Isaiah see? And to whom did John apply the prophecy? Answer: Isaiah saw Adonay's glory and John applied the prophecy to “Him.” So who was the “Him” in the narrative? Please answer plainly. All can see that you are circumventing my point. What does Isaiah 52-53 have to do with Isaiah 6 and John 12? The old testament contains prophecies of both Christ's humiliation and his glory. What do you think you prove by invoking prophecies that pertain to Christ's humiliation? Do such prophecies cancel out the prophecies of His glory? thinker

Hello thinker:

I am beginning to understand your position better as our conversation progresses. I think you are very zealous for your position, perhaps more than for truth itself. Please do not consider this an accusation, it is just that it seems to me you will not see what my post asserts.

Example; I give you Isaiah 52:13 “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.”

This is Isaiah's exclamation of Messiah's GLORY.

But what do YoU see?

(thinker)

What do you think you prove by invoking prophecies that pertain to Christ's humiliation? Do such prophecies cancel out the prophecies of His glory?

(P) Do you NOT SEE my reference to his glory in Isaiah?

And the reason I give you prophecies to Christ's humiliation is precisely BECAUSE Isaiah himself went from proclaiming Messiah's glory, to immediately and in the same context, speaking of his suffering.

Just as John's claim expressed in 12:41 41 These things said Esaias, when he “SAW HIS GLORY, – AND SPAKE OF HIM.”

There is NO reference in John's remarks about Isaiah 6. That is the choice of a trinitarian argument, that insists Isaiah 6 cross-references John 12:41.

I simply show you there are other choices that are in oline with the monotheist position, and I notice it gives you much more problem than your position gives me.

I have shown you from the bible, God expresses himself as a first-person-singular deity, having no equal, and that there is a MAN at God's right hand, a MAN raised from among the Jews' brothers, a MAN as God's fellow, a MAN who is mediator,  a MAN who tells you the truth, and a MAN approved of God and slain by his fellow men.

You have shown me one remark out of a commentary, a book ABOUT the bible, that John claims Isaiah explained the 110th Psalm, proving Jesus is God.

Instead of dealing with what I have shown you from scripture, you chide me for your own inability to comprehend that I DID in fact reference Messiah's glory.

Please, take the time to re-read the position I have asserted from scripture, lay aside your commentator and allow the Holy Spirit access to your soul and heart. He WILL show you the truth if you will let him. So far, he has been using me, now let him use you.

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene @ June 26 2009,02:51)

Paladin……….Why can't these people understand these things? You have correctly explained , It just is amazing at the depth of indoctrination in the minds of men. If they had truly loved the truth they could see these things clearly. Thank for your Posts brother they are certainly needed Here. Let the Spirit continue to have it's perfect work brother.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………….gene

Hello Gene.

Thank you for your continued encouragement.

Please consider what I am about to say and understand it is not intended to find fault with you.

I do not believe the thinker and WJ are any less zealous for the truth than you or I. If they gave in too easily, I would begin to think they must not have really believed their position.

However, I remember when I was a trinitarian, and defended the trinity doctrine with the best of them. I not only believed it with all my heart, I loved the Godhead and all it involved.

It was only after years of research and study, tears and sweat and humiliation, I finally broke free of the hold my love for my first doctrine had on me.

It is a fearful thing to break the hold of tradition and doctrine, to persue the truth of scripture without the crutch of other men's opinions and approval.

I still remember the fear and trembling I lived with as I began to actually question my own solid foundation of doctrine.

The first thing I did was set out to prove my position to others who questioned it. When they began to disagree with mys tatements, I listened and decided to prove to them that my position was the ONLY possible solution to what scripture said.

THAT is the KEY.

When a response to a position ceases to be the ONLY POSSIBLE solution, you begin to see there are other possibilities, and if there are other possibilities, or my “proof texts” fail to prove my position, I HAVE to consider my entire postion as suspect.

And when I further find that ALL of my “proof texts” fall into that same category of not proving my position, it pretty well settles the matter.

Then when I set out to disprove the Monotheistic position, and find that scripture really does teach it, I have nothing else to do but fall on my knees and give thanks that God has been merciful to such a one as I.

I have examined the claims of plural nouns, and given response. I have examined the claims of “proof texts” and given response. I have examined the claims of “higher criticism” and given response. Through the years, I have learned not to forget from whence I came. It is not “I” who win or lose some argument, it is God who uses vessels of clay to point out a position of truth.

If any on the board wish it, I will publish my position one step at a time, giving time for any who will, to respond with rebuttal. But they will have to address my point, not swap doctrine. “Yabut what about John 1:1” does not address the issue of God's expressing his first-person-singular deity. See what I mean?

But those with whom we disagree, love their God at least as much as You or I love ours. God grant that He will give us the time to blend the two into one truth.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ June 26 2009,02:51)

Paladin……….Why can't these people understand these things? You have correctly explained , It just is amazing at the depth of indoctrination in the minds of men. If they had truly loved the truth they could see these things clearly. Thank for your Posts brother they are certainly needed Here. Let the Spirit continue to have it's perfect work brother.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………….gene

Gene,
You are no less “indoctrinated” good friend.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

There is NO reference in John's remarks about Isaiah 6. That is the choice of a trinitarian argument, that insists Isaiah 6 cross-references John 12:41.

Paladin,
What! You say thare is no mention of Isaiah 6. In verse 40 John cited Isaiah 6:9-10 which says,

Quote

He has blinded their minds and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I may heal them

Then John said,

Quote

These things Isaiah said when He saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM

Isaiah saw Adonay's glory in 6:1-3. John applied Isaiah's vision of Adonai's glory to “HIM.” I ask you again: Who is “Him?” There can be only one answer,

Quote

The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to Him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah which Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Jehovah; and from this the inference is irrestible that John regarded Jesus as the Jehovah which Isaiah saw. (Barne's Notes p. 314)

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Jesus had his own throne in heaven shown in Is 6?
Find a third one and you might teach three gods but no trinity.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2009,08:15)

Hi TT, Jesus had his own throne in heaven shown in Is 6?

Nick,
Thank you. You have just affirmed what the apostle John said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus (Adoney).

thinker  

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 26 2009,07:26)

Paladin said: Quote There is NO reference in John's remarks about Isaiah 6. That is the choice of a trinitarian argument, that insists Isaiah 6 cross-references John 12:41. Paladin, What! You say thare is no mention of Isaiah 6. In verse 40 John cited Isaiah 6:9-10 which says, Quote He has blinded their minds and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I may heal them Then John said, Quote These things Isaiah said when He saw HIS glory and spoke of HIM Isaiah saw Adonay's glory in 6:1-3. John applied Isaiah's vision of Adonai's glory to “HIM.” I ask you again: Who is “Him?” There can be only one answer, Quote The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to Him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah which Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Jehovah; and from this the inference is irrestible that John regarded Jesus as the Jehovah which Isaiah saw. (Barne's Notes p. 314) thinker

Hello Thinker –

You say

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In verse 40 John cited Isaiah 6:9-10 which says,

You can do three things with a verse reference;

1) you can cite the verse
2) You can quote the verse
3) You can allude to the verse

If you need explanation of any of the above, I can provide them, but I am assuming you are smarter than that.

John did most certainly NOT cite Isaiah 6:9-10. Nor did he quote Isaiah. The language is different in the two verses.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and [ekammusan (kammuw) v.ind.aor.act.3p] shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and [akouswsin (akouw) v.subj.aor.act.3p] understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath [Tetuflwken (tuflow) v.ind.perf.act.3s] blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor [noeeswsin (noew) v.subj.aor.act.3p] understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

While it may be true he cited Isaiah, it remains to be seen as to which verses in Isaiah he quoted or alluded to, but he neither cited nor quoted any of them.

As I pointed out several times, Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12
fills the requirements of John's reference to Isaiah's report.

As for who the “him” is, I say again, you are mixing Isaiah's words with David's words. Your original objection quoted David's 110th Psalm and applied it to John's remarks in 12:37-41 which does not agree.

On page 1 you stated

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Posted: June 24 2009,08:33 To All, On the “Monotheism is Scripture's theme” thread page 7 Paladin said:Paladin said:Quote Adonay is one of the names of God. “Ad-down” is a whole different thing. To All, I want to publically thank Paladin!!! He said that Adonay is one of the names of God. ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! Quote Verse 1: YHWH said to my Sovereign, “Sit thou at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool….Verse 5: Adonay is at your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5)

Why the switch? Do you think John is quoting Isaiah quoting David?

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

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John did most certainly NOT cite Isaiah 6:9-10. Nor did he quote Isaiah. The language is different in the two verses.

Paladin,
John said that he was citing Isaiah,

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These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory.

You say that Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12 fulfill the requirements of John's reference to Isaiah's report. Where do you get this stuff? Those verses say nothing about the blinding of the eyes and the hardening of the Jew's hearts. This is found in chapter 6:9-10 and John said that Isaiah said these things WHEN he saw b]HIS[/b] glory (6:1-3).

John clearly said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus identifying Him as Adonai.

thinker

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,04:58)

Paladin said: Quote John did most certainly NOT cite Isaiah 6:9-10. Nor did he quote Isaiah. The language is different in the two verses. Paladin, John said that he was citing Isaiah, Quote These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory. You say that Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12 fulfill the requirements of John's reference to Isaiah's report. Where do you get this stuff? Those verses say nothing about the blinding of the eyes and the hardening of the Jew's hearts. This is found in chapter 6:9-10 and John said that Isaiah said these things WHEN he saw b]HIS[/b] glory (6:1-3). John clearly said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus identifying Him as Adonai. thinker

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(thinker) Paladin said: Quote John did most certainly NOT cite Isaiah 6:9-10. Nor did he quote Isaiah. The language is different in the two verses. Paladin, John said that he was citing Isaiah,

FINALLY, correct. John cited Isaiah. John did NOT say 6:1-10.

As a matter of fact, Isaiah probably wrote his entire book prior to John's citation, don't you think? So John presents us with Isaiah's remark about the blindness of the Jews, AND Isaiah also presents us with a glimpse into the future glory of Messiah and in immediate context, tells us of suffering servant.

Surely you don't suppose John took several years to read the entire book of Isaiah?

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These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory.

You say that Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12 fulfill the requirements of John's reference to Isaiah's report. Where do you get this stuff? Those verses say nothing about the blinding of the eyes and the hardening of the Jew's hearts. This is found in chapter 6:9-10 and John said that Isaiah said these things WHEN he saw b]HIS[/b] glory (6:1-3).[/quote]

Yes, but as I have repeatedly told you, Isaiah “saw his glory” when he saw God's servant “extolled and made very high.” AND Isaiah continued to comment on the suffring servant in context.

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John clearly said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus identifying Him as Adonai.

NOPE! Not clear in John.

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

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As a matter of fact, Isaiah probably wrote his entire book prior to John's citation, don't you think? So John presents us with Isaiah's remark about the blindness of the Jews, AND Isaiah also presents us with a glimpse into the future glory of Messiah and in immediate context, tells us of suffering servant. Surely you don't suppose John took several years to read the entire book of Isaiah?

You're not dealing with my points. You are not speaking intelligibly.

thinker

[david]

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ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!

Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.”

In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.”
Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115:

Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32; 19:18; 20:4; Ex 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15; 13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15; 22:6; 2Ki 7:6; 19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11; 4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17, 22, 23; 37:13; 38:9, 15, 22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32; 73:20; 77:2, 7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15; 89:49, 50; 90:1, 17; 110:5; 130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18; 4:4; 6:1, 8, 11; 7:14, 20; 8:7; 9:8, 17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6, 8, 16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14, 16; 49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15; 2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20; 3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29; 21:9; 33:17, 20; Da 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14.

Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah).
Just look at Ps 110:1: Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…”

It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)

Quote ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5  ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.” In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.” Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115: Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32;  19:18;  20:4; Ex 4:10, 13;  5:22;  15:17;  34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15;  13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15;  22:6; 2Ki 7:6;  19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11;  4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4;  16:2;  22:30;  30:8;  35:17, 22, 23;  37:13;  38:9, 15, 22;  39:7;  40:17;  44:23;  51:15;  54:4;  55:9;  57:9;  59:11;  62:12;  66:18;  68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32;  73:20;  77:2, 7;  78:65;  79:12;  86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15;  89:49, 50;  90:1, 17;  110:5;  130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18;  4:4;  6:1, 8, 11;  7:14, 20;  8:7;  9:8, 17;  10:12;  11:11;  21:6, 8, 16;  28:2;  29:13;  30:20;  37:24;  38:14, 16;  49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15;  2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20;  3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29;  21:9;  33:17, 20; Da 1:2;  9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16;  7:7, 8;  9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14. Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah). Just look at Ps 110:1:  Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…” It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.

It is obvious that scribes have taken to some editing here and there.

I am glad you have provided this information because I have said it but you are testifying to it and that is a witness to it.

PRAISE GOD!

[KangarooJack]

Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)

Quote ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5  ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.” In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.” Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115: Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32;  19:18;  20:4; Ex 4:10, 13;  5:22;  15:17;  34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15;  13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15;  22:6; 2Ki 7:6;  19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11;  4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4;  16:2;  22:30;  30:8;  35:17, 22, 23;  37:13;  38:9, 15, 22;  39:7;  40:17;  44:23;  51:15;  54:4;  55:9;  57:9;  59:11;  62:12;  66:18;  68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32;  73:20;  77:2, 7;  78:65;  79:12;  86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15;  89:49, 50;  90:1, 17;  110:5;  130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18;  4:4;  6:1, 8, 11;  7:14, 20;  8:7;  9:8, 17;  10:12;  11:11;  21:6, 8, 16;  28:2;  29:13;  30:20;  37:24;  38:14, 16;  49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15;  2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20;  3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29;  21:9;  33:17, 20; Da 1:2;  9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16;  7:7, 8;  9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14. Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah). Just look at Ps 110:1:  Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…” It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.

David,
It is beyond me how you can think the information you provided would hurt Trinitarianism even if it be true. If Psalm 110:5 went through a scribal change from “YHWH” to “Adonai” as your source says, then it is YHWH who sits at YHWH''s right hand. Therefore, Christ is YHWH too.

You didn't even put a little dent in Trinitarianism. You rather helped us and for that we thank you  

thinker

[Author]

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