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bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Paul attributed that to God speaking about the Christ but the fact is the verse was not spoken by God at all
Scripture is the Word of God in that the Sons of Korah spoke these words as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
I have heard the song it is from is a wedding song speaking of the groom and not necessary of the Anointed One. It applies to Jesus because he is The Righteous One.
There are other scriptures from Hebrews that are harder to understand why Paul? choose to use since they were speaking of God. Here is one of those.
Hebrews 1:10-12(NIV) reads:
Quote He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”If you have ever come across a scripture that seems to apply to you even tough it was written about someone else then that possibly explains his use of Psalm 102:25-27.
I am prone not to doubt scripture though I seek understanding about it and so I see explanations. I obtain them though I am not sure if they come from God until I can verify they are true.
Hi brothers Gene and Bodhitharta,
I appreciate your response on my post on Original Sin taken from a Jewish website. But the problem with the myth of Original Sin is it was created by Paul and other Hellenistic Christians. Jesus never preached it. Check for your self from any believing Jew. Christendom incorporated this false doctrine to support Virgin Birth and divinity of Jesus.
I understand scriptures from the point of view of Jewish scriptures. All our N.T material was influenced by hellenistic philosophy of St. Paul including the Four Gospels. Please check for your self.
Thank you all
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 21 2009,11:52) Hi brothers Gene and Bodhitharta,
I appreciate your response on my post on Original Sin taken from a Jewish website. But the problem with the myth of Original Sin is it was created by Paul and other Hellenistic Christians. Jesus never preached it. Check for your self from any believing Jew. Christendom incorporated this false doctrine to support Virgin Birth and divinity of Jesus.
I understand scriptures from the point of view of Jewish scriptures. All our N.T material was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy of St. Paul including the Four Gospels. Please check for your self.
Thank you all
Adam
Jesus one healed a woman and then answered the question of whether she was ill because of her own sins of the sins of her parents. His answer was that her illness allowed for God to be glorified by Jesus acting merciful.Still the point of me mentioning that miracle is to show that Jews do believe in inheriting the effects of your ancestors sins.
Did you see my previous response to your point?
But that is not that he believed in any original sin which is still a myth. Jews believe that the curse can be extended to many generations but not the so called original sin for which alleged redemption is required.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 21 2009,12:37) But that is not that he believed in any original sin which is still a myth. Jews believe that the curse can be extended to many generations but not the so called original sin for which alleged redemption is required.
There is more than one tenet of the original sin. I favor the one that the original sin of Adam and Eve corrupted the spirit of mankind so that “none is righteous, not even one”. Jesus came to set us free from that servitude to sin by teaching us how to obtain a new spirit that is like God in true holiness and righteousness.The corrupted spirit is therefore a curse that resulted from the original sin.
Some of the other tenets or original sin are not part of Scripture whether it is the New or Old Testament.
One of these is the one that believes that we bear the guilt of Adam's sin. That is nonsense made up by men under the influence of Satan.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2009,09:43) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Paul attributed that to God speaking about the Christ but the fact is the verse was not spoken by God at all
Scripture is the Word of God in that the Sons of Korah spoke these words as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
I have heard the song it is from is a wedding song speaking of the groom and not necessary of the Anointed One. It applies to Jesus because he is The Righteous One.
There are other scriptures from Hebrews that are harder to understand why Paul? choose to use since they were speaking of God. Here is one of those.
Hebrews 1:10-12(NIV) reads:
Quote He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”If you have ever come across a scripture that seems to apply to you even tough it was written about someone else then that possibly explains his use of Psalm 102:25-27.
I am prone not to doubt scripture though I seek understanding about it and so I see explanations. I obtain them though I am not sure if they come from God until I can verify they are true.
Is it okay to just pick any part of scripture and apply it to God saying “God said” when in-fact he did not say it.And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
Ezekiel 22:27-29God doesn't seem to think it's okay.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 21 2009,16:52) Hi brothers Gene and Bodhitharta,
I appreciate your response on my post on Original Sin taken from a Jewish website. But the problem with the myth of Original Sin is it was created by Paul and other Hellenistic Christians. Jesus never preached it. Check for your self from any believing Jew. Christendom incorporated this false doctrine to support Virgin Birth and divinity of Jesus.
I understand scriptures from the point of view of Jewish scriptures. All our N.T material was influenced by hellenistic philosophy of St. Paul including the Four Gospels. Please check for your self.
Thank you all
Adam
I don't believe in Original sin at all.Regarding the Virgin Birth I definitely believe in it, it is not only written in the Bible it is also written in the Quran
It is really not that difficult of a concept for God created Jesus with a Word “Be” and he was.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2009,18:47) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 21 2009,12:37) But that is not that he believed in any original sin which is still a myth. Jews believe that the curse can be extended to many generations but not the so called original sin for which alleged redemption is required.
There is more than one tenet of the original sin. I favor the one that the original sin of Adam and Eve corrupted the spirit of mankind so that “none is righteous, not even one”. Jesus came to set us free from that servitude to sin by teaching us how to obtain a new spirit that is like God in true holiness and righteousness.The corrupted spirit is therefore a curse that resulted from the original sin.
Some of the other tenets or original sin are not part of Scripture whether it is the New or Old Testament.
One of these is the one that believes that we bear the guilt of Adam's sin. That is nonsense made up by men under the influence of Satan.
Once again you have picked up a MISQUOTE from Paul saying “none is righteous , no not one”This was a misquote that was talking about Nonbelievers saying
Psalm 14
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Obviously this did not include all men for God said that there were righteous men.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 21 2009,15:11) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2009,09:43) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Paul attributed that to God speaking about the Christ but the fact is the verse was not spoken by God at all
Scripture is the Word of God in that the Sons of Korah spoke these words as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
I have heard the song it is from is a wedding song speaking of the groom and not necessary of the Anointed One. It applies to Jesus because he is The Righteous One.
There are other scriptures from Hebrews that are harder to understand why Paul? choose to use since they were speaking of God. Here is one of those.
Hebrews 1:10-12(NIV) reads:
Quote He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”If you have ever come across a scripture that seems to apply to you even tough it was written about someone else then that possibly explains his use of Psalm 102:25-27.
I am prone not to doubt scripture though I seek understanding about it and so I see explanations. I obtain them though I am not sure if they come from God until I can verify they are true.
Is it okay to just pick any part of scripture and apply it to God saying “God said” when in-fact he did not say it.And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
Ezekiel 22:27-29God doesn't seem to think it's okay.
If the Sons of Korah were moved to speak by the Spirit of God then God did say what they said as they are just instruments for him to use.Adam………Where did Paul say anything about the (Original Sin). As i recall he said Sin entered (INTO) the world (THROUGH) Adam, and in fact it did , Was not Cain a son of Adam, did He not murder his brother and Lie to GOD, this is the first place sin in mentioned in scripture right? But we must remember it did come by way of Flesh into the world and that was through Adam who Fathered Cain. So indeed Sin did enter (into) the world (through) Adam. So Paul is still right then, If sin came into the world another way then you or the Jews need to explain How did it come into the world, if not through Adam. Paul wrote many thing sometimes Hard to understand as Peter said, but if you try to reason (with) Him you can see His Logic in what He is saying. IMO
Adam, beware of the leaven of the Jews, they overall Hate Paul and reject Jesus, don't fall into there trap. The Apostles accepted Paul and what He was saying.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 22 2009,03:50) Adam………Where did Paul say anything about the (Original Sin). As i recall he said Sin entered (INTO) the world (THROUGH) Adam, and in fact it did , Was not Cain a son of Adam, did He not murder his brother and Lie to GOD, this is the first place sin in mentioned in scripture right? But we must remember it did come by way of Flesh into the world and that was through Adam who Fathered Cain. So indeed Sin did enter (into) the world (through) Adam. So Paul is still right then, If sin came into the world another way then you or the Jews need to explain How did it come into the world, if not through Adam. Paul wrote many thing sometimes Hard to understand as Peter said, but if you try to reason (with) Him you can see His Logic in what He is saying. IMO Adam, beware of the leaven of the Jews, they overall Hate Paul and reject Jesus, don't fall into there trap. The Apostles accepted Paul and what He was saying.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………..gene
Hi brother Gene,
I appreciate your concern for me. infact nowadays I am studying all Christians doctrines from the point of view of Judaism which was the true religion of Jesus. Here is how jews rejeced this another myth called original Sin.Judaism’s Rejection Of Original Sin
——————————————————————————–
Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. The basis of his belief is from the Bible (Genesis 3:17-19) where Adam is described as having disobeyed G-d by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. This, the first sin of man, became known as original sin.
Many Christians today, particularly members of the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches, subscribe to this belief. They maintain that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations, tainting even the unborn. Substantiation for this view is found in the New Testament (Romans 5:12) where Paul says, “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man's disobediance many were made sinners.”
Christianity believes that only through the acceptance of Jesus that the “grace” of G-d can return to man. A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her.
The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.
Please gothrough this link : http://godthepossible.blogspot.com/2008….ne.html
Question
Hello Rabbi Moss,I was brought up an atheist Jew, and have a BA in Religious Studies (i.e. comparative religion).
I was recently wondering where Christianity got its concept of original sin, because, as far as I know, it doesn't really exist in Judaism. My understanding has always been that according to Judaism, we are born into this often miserable world (simplisticly the result of the Fall); we are born neither good or bad, but we have the ability to go with our yetzer tov or yetzer hara (which I have understood to mean good or bad inclinations). The sins for which we atone at New Years are those done during the past year, and not anything more integral to who we are. I assume any sacrifice that was made when the Temple existed would have been for that.
Therefore, the sin then becoming in Christianity one that exists at birth and that is integral to one's very being would seem to be a new concept.
Of course, I'm not sure there was a Jewish concept of a soul in the first place, but that's another topic.
Do you have any information on this 'original sin' question, what the Fall indicated, and was the implication of 'sin'?
Thank you.
Dori JaffeAnswer
Dear Dori,
The Jewish view of the sin of Adam and Eve is very different from the Christian one. In fact, when looked at deeply, it is questionable whether the sin was evil at all.Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent – not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger and by combatting evil we create a world of good. So all negativity in the world is just a facade – behind it is ultimate goodness.
That's how reality is now. But it was not like that in the beginning. Adam and Eve were pure beings who entered a perfect world. There was no challenge, pain or death in their world. The “knowledge of good and evil” was a tree that they were told to stay away from in order to maintain this perfect world. “On the day you eat from the tree you will become mortal” said G-d. Eve picked up on a nuance in this warning. Here is my reconstruction of Eve's thought process:
G-d is giving us a choice. We can either remain perfect in a perfect world, or we can ingest the knowledge of good and evil and become imperfect (mortal). What should we choose? Well, G-d created us with a purpose. But what purpose could there be in remaining perfect? G-d was perfect before we were created, so what are we adding? Our purpose must be to face imperfection and make that perfect too, through our own efforts. That's something only we can do, because only we can be imperfect (G-d “can't” do that). So she ate of the tree and convinced Adam to eat it too.
Mortality was not a punishment for eating the fruit, but rather the natural consequence (because only a perfect being is immortal). So too the other “curses” – pain in childbirth and difficulty in making a living are the natural consequences of Eve's choice, because from now on, all achievement has to be earned, which means that nothing can be “born” without hardship.
As descendants of Adam and Eve we have inherited this path – the path of facing challenges, fighting evil and trying to bring the world back to its previous perfection. Every time we overcome a negative urge, or we transform an evil situation to a holy one, we win a battle in this war. We make the world a little bit more comfortable for G-d's presence to be manifest. When the sum total of all the good in all generations reaches a certain point, G-d will send the Messiah. He is a human leader who will teach the world how to put the finishing touches on the work of perfecting the world. He will bring material peace between all nations of the world, he will make peace between the spiritual ideals of how the world should be and the practical reality of how the world is, he will bring down the heavens and reveal them on earth. And he won't die, nor will anyone, because evil and death will have been vanquished for ever.
To summarise:
1) The “sin” of Adam and Eve was in fact a conscious choice, a necessary step in the development of humanity's purpose. It was the introduciton of imperfection into creation – something only humans can do.
2) We are not born evil, but we are born in a world of apparent evil and hidden goodness. Our mission is to reveal that goodness.All the best,
Rabbi MossQuote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2009,17:05) Question Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent – not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger
Adam………..I do agree with this, we are born neither good nor evil, but we are born into a world full of evil and good, the evil is pervasive at this time . This world is being used by GOD as a teaching tool to teach us about the effects of both good and evil He even cursed the Ground for (OUR) sake to increase this teaching effect on us all. John said all the is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes the Pride of life, are (FROM) the world. We are born neutral but we don't stay that way. The greater influences of evil in the world began to infect us much like a virus infects a person, starting off slowly until it infects the whole body. Our thinking is effected by the (SPIRIT)(intellect) that is (IN) the world.AS far as Him saying GOD would send the Messiah and show us a better way as He implies , GOD has already done that, Jesus Showed us all a better way of Life How to have a right relationship with our GOD.
Adam……….. again i implore you as a dear brother BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE JEWS. THEY REJECT JESUS AND THE APOSTLE PAUL. BE CAREFUL BROTHER.
with much love and concern………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 25 2009,03:19) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2009,17:05) Question Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent – not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger
Adam………..I do agree with this, we are born neither good nor evil, but we are born into a world full of evil and good, the evil is pervasive at this time . This world is being used by GOD as a teaching tool to teach us about the effects of both good and evil He even cursed the Ground for (OUR) sake to increase this teaching effect on us all. John said all the is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes the Pride of life, are (FROM) the world. We are born neutral but we don't stay that way. The greater influences of evil in the world began to infect us much like a virus infects a person, starting off slowly until it infects the whole body. Our thinking is effected by the (SPIRIT)(intellect) that is (IN) the world.AS far as Him saying GOD would send the Messiah and show us a better way as He implies , GOD has already done that, Jesus Showed us all a better way of Life How to have a right relationship with our GOD.
Adam……….. again i implore you as a dear brother BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE JEWS. THEY REJECT JESUS AND THE APOSTLE PAUL. BE CAREFUL BROTHER.
with much love and concern………………..gene
Or do they reject Jesus because of PaulFor I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Romans 9:2-4Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve. God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2009,13:35) Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve. God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.
kerwin so what does iomans 5:12,13 mean. tht scripture says it all, how can one reject it? for one its gods word adn it is plain as day and you reject and deny it – that in itself is not faith, and spiritual works & faith is what we have to have to be included in gods kingdom. yet you all try to fight it and argue it for no reason at all. genesis 8:21,22 is good also. people wake up and stop being spiritualy blind, theres no reason for it. hey BD u said man isn't prone too or inclined to do that and god wouldn't do that as you state yet here's your proof.. read it people you need to read it not just question and requestion and ignore. it didn't become a law until adams disobeying and it was given to all not sure why the jewish poster is arguing and then talking about jesus i thought the jews didn't believe christ had come yet,. from what fellow jewish people and the bible states thats what they say. i mean they wanted to stone him for blasphemy yet he never said he was god just that he was gods son and that they should just look at the work he has done thru the power of his father god almighty above yet they caused his murder thru Romans. jesus shed his blood to have god forgive our sins yet we still need faith in jesus and to follow his example , we need to take into heart gods good news the bible and show faith, spiritual faith & works because fleshy works does no good for god. adams sin that caused him and all that follow to be not in the standing of his first plan for us has been corrected from his sacrifice. no imperfect human could have done that, what was needed was a offering that was equal or better than what was originaly created otherwise anyone chould have been able to do that . we need to give god praise for all things are his and he should be the only worshiped and praised.. jesus said go out and preach the good news and make disciples. stay away from unclean things do not worsghip falsely or to idols or mans beliefs/doctrines .Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2009,13:35) Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve. God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.
You are exactly right!
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