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hi all
we grow old and shorter lives because God has maded that way at flood with Noah,but the reasons why we guetting sick and cripled this his in gread part our own doing,but wath is good is that God will give everyone the oportunity to accept his way to salvation through his word,if you accepted ,you are free to choose.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2009,16:31) hi all
we grow old and shorter lives because God has maded that way at flood with Noah,but the reasons why we guetting sick and cripled this his in gread part our own doing,but wath is good is that God will give everyone the oportunity to accept his way to salvation through his word,if you accepted ,you are free to choose.
he did shorten it after the flood, but they still got sick and old and died after they ate of the fruit as to why we do is right there in romans 5:12. it is inherited pass down, given too whatever yuo want to call it. after they disobeyed god we were also given death and sicknes and old age. why do you people totally ignore the scriptures? can't see how one can gain knowledge in gods word if u don't adhere to what is being shown in scripture – gods word. how or why you ignore or bypass whay is there is palin foolish and is very harmful to your quest to do gods will or attain understanding of his words(his wiil for man). stop arguing and fighting it if theres no direct scriptual basis or you questioning.don't confuse born of sin with born in sin.. like it says sin was in the world with adam but it cannot be charged until there was a law regarding it = it had to have happened in order for it to be law. it says when it was commited law was then made for sin and thus death entered into the world and from one man all men die and are sinned. the world is satans domain and thus the world is not perfect or in gods true harrmony and when all others being born are being born in a world where sin is law thus we are born in sin, i did not say we are made up of sin. sin was an act we are not an act. when something is performed or done that is an is an act. jesus sacrifice has canceled that out to make it balanced out again as it was in the begining but we need faith(for gods grace) we need faith in jesus's words and actions) that were a message from god, he relayed that to use. so faith in jesus is faith in god for he and his father the only almighty god to be worshiped are in union they have the same beliefs same goal. god thru jesus made al on earth, they both want us to be able to attain what was to be in the garden of eden, nothing has changed they love and want everyone to be saved. christs actions now have made everyone fellow citizens of the holy ones and members of the household of god, and grace ,salvation is only given by him and is there for all but he does require that we excersice faith. jesus said to go forth and teach and baptise desciples which reinforces that we then are to not be seperate but or strangers but together under one common thread, gods will. kesus was gods messenger he spread gods word his will and we need t olisten and follow his actions and sayings because the are gods will, gods words faith in that is everlasting life.
hi p2
you right but not all men will look in the scriptures for the same reasons than the christians,they are hipocrites ,wolfs ,they still here with us and try to take advantage of our pure haerts.
but let stick firm to the truth of christ and allways show a good example to all.Here is the Jewish view of Original Sin. Extracted from http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish scriptures, and the church's teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets.
According to church teachings, the mortal sin committed by our first parents in the Garden of Eden had catastrophic consequences for the human race. Most importantly, Christendom holds that these devastating effects extend far beyond the curses of painful childbirth and laborious farming conditions outlined in the third chapter of Genesis.
This well-known church doctrine posits that when Adam and Eve rebelled against God and ate from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, all of their descendants became infected with the stain of their transgression. Moreover, as a consequence of this first iniquity, man is hopelessly lost in a state of sin in which he has been held captive since this fall. As a result, he is powerless to follow the path of obedience and righteousness by his own free will. Rather, missionaries contend, because all are born with an innate and uncontrollable lust for sin, humanity can do nothing to merit its own salvation. In essence, man is totally depraved and true free will is far beyond his grasp. “Totally depraved” may seem to be a harsh way for a Christian doctrine to depict mankind's dire condition, yet this is precisely the term used by the church to describe man's desperate, sinful predicament. It is only through faith in Jesus, Christendom concludes, that hopeless man can be saved.
You stated in your question that the doctrine on original sin teaches that “all human beings are born with an innate tendency to disobey God.” While this statement is superficially correct, it fails to convey the far-reaching scope of this church doctrine. Although Christianity does teach that the entire human race is born with an evil inclination, this tenet encompasses a far more extreme position than the one that you briefly outlined. In fact, missionaries insist that as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden, man's unquenchable desire for sin is virtually ungovernable. In Christian terms, man is not inclined toward sin but more accurately is a slave to sin. As a result, the church concludes, short of converting to Christianity, humanity can do nothing to save itself from hell.
Bear in mind, there is good reason for the church's uncompromising stand on this cherished doctrine. The founders of Christianity understood that if man can save himself from eternal damnation through his own initiative and obedience to God, the church would have very little to offer the human race. Moreover, if righteousness can be achieved through submission to the commandments outlined in the Torah, what possible benefit could Jesus' death provide for mankind? Such self-probing thoughts, however, were unimaginable to those who shaped primitive Christianity.
Despite the zealous position missionaries take as they defend this creed, the Christian doctrine on original sin is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish scriptures. Over and over again the Torah loudly dismisses the notion that man has lost his divinely endowed capacity to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in virtually every teaching that Moses directs to the children of Israel.
In fact, in an extraordinary sermon delivered by Moses in the last days of his life, the prophet stands before the entire nation and condemns the notion that man's condition is utterly hopeless. Throughout this uplifting exhortation, Moses declares that it is man alone who can and must merit his own salvation. Moreover, as he unhesitatingly speaks in the name of God, the lawgiver thoroughly rejects the notion that obedience to the Almighty is “too difficult or far off” and declares to the children of Israel that righteousness has been placed within their reach.
Deuteronomy 30 isn't a quiet chapter and its verses read as though the Torah is bracing the Jewish people for the Christian doctrines that would confront them many centuries later. As the last Book of the Pentateuch draws to a close, Moses admonishes his young nation not to question their capacity to remain faithful to the mitzvoth of the Torah. Deuteronomy 30:10-14 states:
. . . if you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?” Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: “Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?” The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
The Jewish people have drawn great comfort and encouragement from this uplifting promise. For the church, however, Moses' strong message created a theological disaster. How could the authors of the New Testament reasonably insist that man's dire condition was hopeless if the Torah unambiguously declared that man possessed an extraordinary ability to remain faithful to God? How could the church fathers possibly contend that the mitzvoth in the Torah couldn't save the Jewish people when the Creator proclaimed otherwise? How could missionaries conceivably maintain that the commandments of the Torah are too difficult when the Torah declares that they are “not far off,” “not too hard,” and “you may do it”?
This staggering problem did not escape the keen attention of Paul. Bear in mind, the author of Romans and Galatians constructed his most consequential doctrines on the premise that man is utterly depraved and incapable of saving himself through his own obedience to God. In chapter after chapter he directs his largely gentile audiences toward the cross and away from Sinai as he repeatedly insists that man is lost without Jesus.
Yet how could Paul harmonize this wayward theology with the Jewish scriptures in which his teachings were not only unknown, but thoroughly condemned? Even with the nimble skills that Paul possessed, welding together the church's young doctrine on original sin with diametrically opposed teachings of the Jewish scriptures would not be a simple task.
Employing unparalleled literary manipulation, however, Paul manages to conceal this vexing theological problem with a swipe of his well-worn eraser. In fact, Paul's innovative approach to biblical tampering was so remarkable that it would set the standard of scriptural revisionism for future New Testament authors.
A classic example of this biblical revisionism can be found in Romans 10:8 where Paul announces to his readers that he is quoting directly from scripture as he records the words of Deuteronomy 30:14. Yet as he approaches the last portion of this verse, he carefully stops short of the Torah's vital conclusion and expunges the remaining segment of this crucial verse. In Romans 10:8 Paul writes,
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach).
Predictably, the last words of Deuteronomy 30:14, “that you may do it,” were meticulously deleted by Paul. Bear in mind that he had good reason for removing this clause — the powerful message contained in these closing words rendered all that Paul was preaching as heresy.
This stunning misquote in Romans stands out as a remarkable illustration of Paul's ability to shape scriptures in order to create the illusion
that his theological message conformed to the principles of the Torah. By removing the final segment of this verse, Paul succeeded in convincing his largely gentile readers that his Christian teachings were supported by the principles of the Hebrew Bible.Deuteronomy 30:14
Romans 10:8
But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach).The question that immediately comes to mind is: How can Paul deliberately remove a vital clause from Moses' message and still expect to gain a following among the Jewish people? While considering this question, we can begin to understand why Paul attained great success among his gentile audiences and utterly failed among the Jews who were unimpressed with his contrived message.
It is for this reason that although both Paul and Matthew quoted extensively from the Jewish scriptures, they achieved a very different result. Paul was largely a minister to gentile audiences who were ignorant of the Jewish Bible (the only Bible in existence at the time). As a result, they did not possess the skills necessary to discern between genuine Judaism and Bible tampering. These illiterate masses were, as a result, vulnerable, and eagerly consumed everything that Paul taught them. In fact, throughout the New Testament it was exclusively the Jewish apostates to Christianity who challenged Paul's authority, never the gentile community.
Matthew, on the other hand, directed all of his evangelism and Bible quotes to Jewish audiences. Jewish people, however, were keenly aware of Matthew's manipulation of their Bible. As a result, the first Gospel failed to effectively reach its intended Jewish readers. It required little more than a perfunctory reading of the first few chapters in the Book of Matthew for Jewish people to determine that there was no prophecy in Isaiah that foretold that a virgin would give birth to a messiah. Likewise, the Jewish people were doubly unimpressed with Matthew's claim that the messiah was to be a resident of Nazareth, when no such prophecy existed. The people of Israel concluded that Matthew had engaged in a willful and unrestrained corruption of their sacred scriptures. Consequently, the author of the first Gospel failed in his effort to convert his targeted Jewish audiences to Christianity.
Ironically, there was no individual in history who was more responsible for the strong resistance of the Jewish people to the Christian message than Matthew. In contrast, the person most responsible for the church's unparalleled success among the gentiles was unquestionably the apostle Paul. Not surprisingly, throughout the biblical narrative, gentiles had always had a terrible time discerning chaff from wheat, truth from heresy; and the Jews were repeatedly warned never to emulate them. Tragically, some of our people missed this crucial message.
Paul, however, should have been tipped off that his teachings on original sin were misguided and that his broad-brushed characterization of humanity was erroneous. In fact, the Jewish scriptures repeatedly praised numerous men of God for their unwavering righteousness. For example, the Bible declared that men like Calev1 and King Josiah2 were faithful throughout their extraordinary lives. Moreover, because of their devotion to their Creator, Abraham and Daniel were the objects of the Almighty's warm affection as He tenderly referred to Abraham as “My friend,”3 and Daniel, “beloved.”4 These extraordinary people did not merit these remarkable superlatives because they believed in Jesus or depended on a blood atonement; but rather, it was their devotion to God and unyielding obedience to His Torah that shaped their lives.
Job's unique loyalty to God stands as a permanent enigma to Christian theology as well. Here was a man who was severely tested by Satan and endured unimaginable personal tragedies, yet despite these afflictions, Job remains the model of the righteous servant of God. While in Christian theology Job's personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of God's salvation program for mankind. Job didn't rely on Jesus to save him and he certainly did not turn to the cross for his redemption; rather, it was his unswerving obedience to God that made his life a lesson for all of humanity.
Paul's unfounded doctrine on original sin sullies the exemplary legacies of these and many other great men of God. Moreover, Christians must ponder whether it is an insult to the Creator to label all of God's human creation depraved.
Quite unwittingly, Luke committed a striking theological blunder that severely undermined Paul's teachings on original sin. In the first chapter of Luke, the evangelist seeks to portray Elizabeth, who is the cousin of Mary, and her husband Zechariah as the virtuous parents of John the Baptist. Yet in his zeal to characterize the baptizer's mother and father as saints, Luke unwittingly writes, “Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.” (Luke 1:6)
The question that immediately comes to mind is how can missionaries possibly harmonize Paul's insistence that all humanity is depraved when Luke insists that Elizabeth and Zechariah were to be regarded as “blameless”? This is a stunning gaffe for Luke to make when it was he who eagerly promoted Paul in his Book of Acts. Doesn't Luke's assertion that this couple observed “all the Lord's commandments” fly in the face of Paul's central teaching that no one is capable of keeping the mitzvoth of the Torah? Is it not a fact that Christianity teaches that this task is impossible?
Paul never lived to read the Book of Luke, yet throughout his epistles Paul sidesteps any statement in the Jewish scriptures that could undermine his teaching on original sin. For example, immediately after the sin of Adam and Eve is narrated, the Torah declares that man can master his passionate lust for sin. In Genesis 4:6-7, God turns to Cain and warns him,
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If, though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you shall master over it.
For Christian architects like Paul, Augustine, and Calvin, this declaration of man's capacity to restrain and govern his lust for sin is nothing short of heresy. Moreover, the fact that the Torah places these assuring words immediately following the sin in the Garden of Eden5 is profoundly troubling for the church. How can depraved humanity control its iniquity when the Book of Romans repeatedly insists that man can do nothing to release himself from sin's powerful grip? Yet notice that there is nothing in the Eden narrative that could be construed as support for Paul's teaching on humanity's dire condition. On the contrary, in just these two inspiring verses, the Torah dispels forever the church's teachings on original sin.
There is one final point that must be addressed regarding a passing statement you made in your question. I was somewhat puzzled by your comment that your brand of Christianity teaches that “water baptism is required for the removal of this sin.” It is not uncommon for Christians to relate some personal tidbit about their religious beliefs somewhere in the course of their question. What was so surprising about your comment, however, is that your church has simply replaced one commandment with another. On the one hand, your church teaches that the commandments explicitly ordained by the Torah are to be abandoned by believing Christians. Yet in the very same breath, your church then introduces this brand new commandment declaring that its parishioners must undergo a water baptism to be saved. It would seem more logical that if you were going to contem
plate observing commandments, you might as well devote your loyalty to those mitzvoth ordained by God rather than those introduced by your pastor and deacons.The notion that man is saved by being washed in water or forgiven through human blood is unknown to the Jewish scriptures. The Almighty does, however, clearly lay out His sovereign plan for His covenant people when he declares, “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15) What is this “life” and “good” of which the Torah speaks? Missionaries insist that the Jewish nation must convert to Christianity and believe in a crucified messiah in order to be saved. The Torah, however, disagrees. Throughout the Hebrew Bible the Almighty unambiguously declares that the children of Israel are to draw near to Him with intense love and faithfully keep His commandments. This is the desire of the Creator. Moses beseeches the children of Israel,
I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees, and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 30:16)
Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, remained intensely loyal to God's commandments and, as a result, the Torah regards our first patriarch as the paradigm of faithfulness.
I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands, and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. (Genesis 26:4-5)
The Almighty did not give us desires that we cannot govern or commandments that we could not keep. The Torah was not delivered to angels, it was given to the children of Israel long after our first ancestors transgressed in the Garden of Eden.
In Jewish terms, sin is not a person, it's an event, and that event happened yesterday. In chapter after chapter, the prophets of Israel beseech those who lost their way to turn back to the Merciful One because today is a new day.
Best wishes for a happy Purim.
The false Jews at http://www.outreachjudaism.org wrote:
Quote The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish scriptures, and the church's teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets.
That is a weird idea since it is written:
Psalms 53:2-3(NIV) reads:
Quote God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.and
Psalms 14:2-3(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.and
Psalms 143:2(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.
and
Ecclesiastes 7:20(NIV) reads:
Quote There is not a righteous man on earth
who does what is right and never sins.In short each man has a perverse spirit.
Such ignorance of scripture is hard to believe in someone who diligently studies it.
Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 18 2009,15:13) BD then why do we grow old and sick and die , when adam originally was perfect and death free until the act of sin was commited?
Really? Where does the bible say adam was “perfect”? Where does it say he would NOT die?
Interesting thoughts in this thread thus far..i might say..
But here is where I stand…
Men are not “sinners” but they do sin…
Ezekiel 18:19-20; “Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him”.
This scripture shows that it against GOD's own law…for the concept of “original sin” to be true..
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.” – Romans 9:11
Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God. The result of that sin was spiritual death – separation from God. The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.
It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.
In John 3:7 Jesus said “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words – when we are born, we aren't spiritual.
James 2:14-15 says “each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.
We do not begin with a sin nature.
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs02.htm (i don't agree with everything this guy says…but i agree..mostly..with what he says about “original sin”)
VI. Rom. 5:12, 18, 19 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned…Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
This passage is interpreted by those who believe in the doctrine of original sin to mean that because Adam sinned, men are now born sinners that is, they become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. But this passage does not teach the doctrine of original sin. It does not teach that men are born sinners. It does not teach that sin is transmitted physically or any other way from Adam to his descendants. It does not teach that the sin of Adam was imputed to his descendants. It does not teach that men have sinned “in Adam.” On the contrary, Romans 5:14 teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: “Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.” (Those that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression were certainly sinners. But their sin was different from the sin of Adam. They had sinned before Moses gave the law, and had only sinned against the law of their conscience, and not against a positive precept, as had Adam. Rom. 5:13-14. And the fact that Paul says they “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression” shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin.)
Rom. 5:12-19 does not in any way teach the doctrine of original sin. Sheldon tells us what it does teach:
The Apostle here draws a comparison between the evil potency in the sinning Adam and the beneficent or saving potency in the righteous Christ…Both are pictured rather according to their tendency than according to literal fact. Surely the potency of grace in Christ does not actually come upon all men unto justification of life, but it tends to that end, and hence is so described. In like manner the evil potency in the sinning Adam is characterized according to its tendency.
To interpret the phrase “made sinners” to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are “made sinners” because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are “made righteous” by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life “came upon all men” by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases “made sinners” and “came upon all men” the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.
Paul does not affirm an involuntary, necessary, or irresistible connection between either the sin of Adam and mankind, or the righteousness of Christ and mankind. Otherwise, verse 18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind: “The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” We know that universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Men are not saved involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the obedience of Christ. Nor are they “made sinners” involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the transgression of Adam. But the context shows that men are “made sinners” in the same way that they are “made righteous,” that is, voluntarily or willingly. Rom. 5:18, 19, 21. In verse 18, Paul compares the judgment that came upon all men because of Adam with the free gift of life that came upon all men because of Christ, and says “as” the one, “even so” the other. In verse 19, he compares the way the many were “made sinners” with the way the many were “made righteous,” and says “as” the one, “so” the other. And in verse 21, he compares the reign of sin through Adam's transgression with the reign of grace through Christ's righteousness, and says “as” the one, “even so” the other. The context and language of this passage require that we understand the connection between Adam's sin and the sins of the rest of mankind to be moral and voluntary instead of physical and involuntary.
Paul did not teach that men are “made righteous” involuntarily through Christ, nor did he teach that men are “made sinners” involuntarily through Adam. He did not teach that sin is a substance that dwells in the flesh. He did not teach that sin is inherited from Adam through “natural generation.” He did not teach that we receive a sinful nature from Adam that is the “fountain and cause” of all our “actual” sins. He did not teach that men are born sinners or that sin is transmitted physically from Adam to his descendants. All of this has been the fabrication of man's imagination. Paul's whole message, and only message, in this passage is the message that the power of Adam's transgression to bring sin, death, and condemnation upon all men has been transcended by a much greater power the glorious, liberating power of God's grace in Christ Jesus, which breaks the power of sin and brings justification, righteousness, and life upon all men. Rom. 5:15-21.
Adam………….Beware of the leaven of the Jews, they have a hatred for Paul , I know this from personal experience with them. Paul does not disagree with Jesus and Had himself been Schooled in the LAW by a well know teacher of His day, He fully knew their teachings and there rejection of Jesus and HIS words. Do not become ensnared by them. IMO
with much love to you and yours Adam………………….gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 18 2009,07:48) Ok…for those that may wonder…I consider myself a Deist…but I have as of late been thinking about the concept of “original sin” I'll start by asking a question…and we will see where this goes…
Is it fair that I be punished for something I did not do?
Yes because Jesus suffered for sins he did not do.Original sin goes hand in hand in WHY God sacrificed his only begotten son.
And if Adam/Eve did not commit that original sin, you would not be born into this world. So you not only are a product of that sin, but you are also having to live in its shadow of punishment.
But God as made a way to be redeemed, why did he do it like this? Because he is fashioning mankind to be like him…and it's something we have to experience to go where he wants to take us. Amen.
Hi RM,
Adam's rebellion against his God and submission to the god of this world means that all are born in that dominion of darkness.
The kingdom of light is offered to all with cleansing of their vessels that the treasure of God's Spirit may dwell within.Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 20 2009,01:37) Interesting thoughts in this thread thus far..i might say.. But here is where I stand…
Men are not “sinners” but they do sin…
Ezekiel 18:19-20; “Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him”.
This scripture shows that it against GOD's own law…for the concept of “original sin” to be true..
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.” – Romans 9:11
Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God. The result of that sin was spiritual death – separation from God. The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.
It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.
In John 3:7 Jesus said “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words – when we are born, we aren't spiritual.
James 2:14-15 says “each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.
We do not begin with a sin nature.
yuo now say that it is an assumption about tht adam & eve actions were thus handed down or passed down or whatever you may call it yet you go out a assume the death was only spiritual – bible does not say that, you are inputing that, so lets not go down that road if your doing it.nothing quoated from that scripture here is assumed it clearly says it. roman 5:12,13 clearly states what it says. you cannot deny it being so, but only not accept it. thats your choice. it clearly has passed on down since its first act from adam & eve and that is that no matter how you try to twist it ot try to incorporate it with another aspect of something else. there disobedience caused sin to be chraged(law) and thus its here today still from them! and it sates – im not going to stae it anymore yuo can read you old enough to understand it. it sayds we are all sinners. you people are now truely calling gods words his scriptures lies , you are calling god a lier. i have a stack of differenty bibles from different faiths and read them all and they all state the same thing – therefore people are choosing to not accept the truth and are not trying to seek gods kindom otherwise tehy would stop calling him a lier.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2009,16:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 18 2009,09:40) Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 18 2009,14:31) romans 5:12,13 – says a lot. “that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. for until the law sin was in the world but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law……so it clearly says that there was sin from the begining but if there was no act on it then it cannot be charged against anyone, but the act of sin did accure when adam & eve disobeyed god and we thus given death and kicked out of eden. and all offspring hasa inherited tht trait. “death spread to all men because they had all sinned”. i use gods wrod the bible scriptures not own opinions or man made intertwined ideas and doctrines.
You are completely wrong if you were right God would have told cain he was born in sin, yet he told Cain that he could rule over it.
Could you please point me to the address of that scripture. Thank you.
Hi Kerwin:I believe that the following scriptures is what he meant:
NIV
Quote Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? Gen 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 20 2009,01:37) Interesting thoughts in this thread thus far..i might say.. But here is where I stand…
Men are not “sinners” but they do sin…
Ezekiel 18:19-20; “Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him”.
This scripture shows that it against GOD's own law…for the concept of “original sin” to be true..
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.” – Romans 9:11
Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God. The result of that sin was spiritual death – separation from God. The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.
It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.
In John 3:7 Jesus said “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words – when we are born, we aren't spiritual.
James 2:14-15 says “each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.
We do not begin with a sin nature.
it says we are sinners from adams doing. also we are born into it, it is here when we are born and that is why man still dies. gods kingdom has not fully came to be so we are not without death yet. just as through christ we can be rightous again, but you need gods grace, have faith and it will show from your actions and works. the only action and works i see from certain people are disbelief and denial and ones own words.Nick……..Where doe it say Adam rebelled against GOD, GOD did not accuse them of sinning did He. Remember Adam and Eves eyes were both closed at the time of the disobedient act. Their eyes were not opened till after the partook of the Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe GOD know all along Adam and eve would eat of the forbidden fruit, in fact what they did fit perfectly in his overall purpose and plan. But His Justice required Him to forewarn Adam and Eve of the consequences they were bringing on themselves. He could have prevented it if He so chose to. It was needful for man to experience good and evil themselves to learn from the experience in order fo us to become more like GOD Himself. Experience is said to be the best teacher, i believe if GOD could have done things a different way He would Have. He even said after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil,” Look man has become as we are to knowing (experience intimately) good and evil”. It was allowed for teaching us “for you shall all be taught by GOD” Jesus said.> IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 19 2009,20:37) Interesting thoughts in this thread thus far..i might say.. But here is where I stand…
Men are not “sinners” but they do sin…
Ezekiel 18:19-20; “Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him”.
This scripture shows that it against GOD's own law…for the concept of “original sin” to be true..
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.” – Romans 9:11
Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God. The result of that sin was spiritual death – separation from God. The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.
It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.
In John 3:7 Jesus said “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words – when we are born, we aren't spiritual.
James 2:14-15 says “each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.
We do not begin with a sin nature.
That is not the tenet of original sin that I believe is true. I believe humans sin because their spirit desires to do so. In order to overcome we must have a new spirit that desires to obey God in full.Quote (942767 @ Nov. 20 2009,09:10) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2009,16:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 18 2009,09:40) Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 18 2009,14:31) romans 5:12,13 – says a lot. “that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. for until the law sin was in the world but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law……so it clearly says that there was sin from the begining but if there was no act on it then it cannot be charged against anyone, but the act of sin did accure when adam & eve disobeyed god and we thus given death and kicked out of eden. and all offspring hasa inherited tht trait. “death spread to all men because they had all sinned”. i use gods wrod the bible scriptures not own opinions or man made intertwined ideas and doctrines.
You are completely wrong if you were right God would have told cain he was born in sin, yet he told Cain that he could rule over it.
Could you please point me to the address of that scripture. Thank you.
Hi Kerwin:I believe that the following scriptures is what he meant:
NIV
Quote Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? Gen 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
people here are not listening, we are born into a system that is now made law of sin. did not say we are sin or born of sin. you people are totally trying to drift away on this here. ephesians 2:1-6 explains a lot also.talks about how this world under satan that works in disobedience, says we all once conducted lusts of flesh, desires of the flesh were childeren of warth. then he says he merciful and loves us and through jesus we were made alive again and grace he gives for those with faith. so sin is here now as it was when adam but didn't become to be until the act happened then law was created and thus it ruled and stays. but god loves us and through jesus and our faith we can live. but people are trying to fight what it says and now are shifting this and that way wether they were mortal immortal, confusing born in and of sin and stating there is no sin or whatever else and trying to be very trivial instead of just accepting it . i love romans 5:12,13 because its all right there it states how it came to be who is affected etc.. its great. let he without sin cast the first stone—– i have six different versions of the bible – that way people cannot claim what it says as wrong for each one all says the same outcome or meaning, not one is so radical or different that you come to a totally different conclusion. not one. so either you don't want to change or learn or accept or not concerned to take gods words in account is your choice. greek and hebrew scripture bibles i use. cain was still born into a world of sin your not changing wht it states just not accepting it.Quote (942767 @ Nov. 20 2009,04:10) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2009,16:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 18 2009,09:40) Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 18 2009,14:31) romans 5:12,13 – says a lot. “that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. for until the law sin was in the world but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law……so it clearly says that there was sin from the begining but if there was no act on it then it cannot be charged against anyone, but the act of sin did accure when adam & eve disobeyed god and we thus given death and kicked out of eden. and all offspring hasa inherited tht trait. “death spread to all men because they had all sinned”. i use gods wrod the bible scriptures not own opinions or man made intertwined ideas and doctrines.
You are completely wrong if you were right God would have told cain he was born in sin, yet he told Cain that he could rule over it.
Could you please point me to the address of that scripture. Thank you.
Hi Kerwin:I believe that the following scriptures is what he meant:
NIV
Quote Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? Gen 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Thank you!
bodhitharta,
The Hebrew people were also instructed to obey the whole law but scripture tells us that all sinned under the law. The reason the Hebrew people chose not to do as God commanded is because their spirit was corrupt. The solution to that ailment is to get the Spirit of Righteousness. The only way to get that Spirit is through obeying all the teachings of Jesus the Anointed One.
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