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Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,09:10) There is a difference between those sons who are merely called theos and the only one who was begotten as theos.
Agreed. Jesus was the firstborn, while all the others came after. Jesus has been endowed with much more, since he received the firstborn's share of the inheritance, as was customary in Hebrew culture.Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:11) And Israel saw the great strong hand of God, what He did to the Egyptians. They feared God and believed in His Word [Memra] and in His servant Moses.
So would this “Word” have been the angel of God that God sent ahead of the Israelites?Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:32) Mike,
Gen 15 clearly says that the Word of Yahweh is Yahweh.
And many people in the OT refer to the angel God sent as “YHWH”.Are you saying that Jesus is one of God's many angels? Because you can't have it both ways, Kathi.
Oh, and don't forget that the nation of Israel was also “called by the name of YHWH”. Does that make THEM “YHWH Himself”?
Kathi, stop looking for specks and ignoring the planks.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:36) Why do you refer to Heb 1:8 as 'a' theos instead of 'the' theos?
Why does scripture refer to the Father as “a god”? Anyone who is “THE god” of anything is, by necessity, “A god”, right?And it is abundantly clear from Heb 1:9 that this particular god, who was mentioned in verse 8, has a god of his own – a god who was powerful enough to place that first god above all others. So even though the definite article is used, we can be sure that verse 8 doesn't talk about “THE God”, for it was “THE God” who anointed that god from verse 8.
And “THE God” doesn't have a god of His own. (Also, it is correctly translated for English as “O god” – as is done elsewhere in many other scriptures.)
Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:48) Let's not forget that fathers naturally have a position higher than their sons.
And let's not forget that gods naturally have a higher position than those they are the god of.
So Jesus is lesser than his God and Father on at least two counts. And even though Jesus is “a god”, he is not “The Most High God”………. so make that three counts.
I could go on until I reached about 100 counts – but I think you get the point.
Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,22:41) The rabbinical understanding of the “Holy Spirit” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes”.
Bravo! I couldn't have worded it better myself. I'm going to save that one.But Kerwin, do you suppose God's “son” is merely one of His “qualities”, or “attributes”?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,09:08) Abe,
No, the people that get the name written on them are not God.
But can you see in the scripture Abe posted that Jesus has one name, and his God has a different one?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,16:59) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,09:08) Abe,
No, the people that get the name written on them are not God.
But can you see in the scripture Abe posted that Jesus has one name, and his God has a different one?
Hi Mike,Jer.3:16 And it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the Throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the Name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil hearts.Peace brother.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,06:56) Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,22:41) The rabbinical understanding of the “Holy Spirit” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes”.
Bravo! I couldn't have worded it better myself. I'm going to save that one.But Kerwin, do you suppose God's “son” is merely one of His “qualities”, or “attributes”?
Mike,The relationship between God and the Spirit is like the relationship between a father and his son, even his heir. It is a known 1st Century Jewish way of speech. The Greeks and other people may have used it as well.
God's “Son” the Spirit is one of his attributes.
Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2013,08:11) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,11:03) Kerwin, The belief in the two powers of Yahweh was a teaching of the Jews. Read this:
http://www.twopowersinheaven.com/
LU,Some off the Canaanites, polytheists, believed in two essential powers. Dr. Michael S. Heiser is interpretation the Hebrew bible in its Canaanite setting.
Quote In my dissertation (UW-Madison, 2004) I argued that Segal’s instincts were correct. My own work bridges the gap between his book and the Hebrew Bible understood in its Canaanite religious context. I don't know anything about rabbinical scholar Alan Segal except what Dr. Heiser said about him. I have heard no peer review of Alan Segal's work, though he published it as a book in 1977.
Hi Kerwin,
The OT says “the Holy Elohim are He.” I agree with that.
The NT says the Father and I are one. I agree with that.
The OT says Jehovah is God of gods and Lord of lords. I agree with that.
The NT says for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. I agree with that too.That all supports plurality in unity of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:36) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,09:10) There is a difference between those sons who are merely called theos and the only one who was begotten as theos.
Agreed. Jesus was the firstborn, while all the others came after. Jesus has been endowed with much more, since he received the firstborn's share of the inheritance, as was customary in Hebrew culture.
Mike,
These other elohim came through Jesus and not directly from the Father. Do you agree?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:11) And Israel saw the great strong hand of God, what He did to the Egyptians. They feared God and believed in His Word [Memra] and in His servant Moses.
So would this “Word” have been the angel of God that God sent ahead of the Israelites?
Mike,
From what I can tell, the Angel of the LORD is one of Jesus' titles but He was not an angel being but instead theos, John 1:1. I have not studied the exodus recently but I remember that He was referred to as the Arm of the LORD there and is credited as leading the Israelite out of Egypt.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:32) Mike,
Gen 15 clearly says that the Word of Yahweh is Yahweh.
And many people in the OT refer to the angel God sent as “YHWH”.Are you saying that Jesus is one of God's many angels? Because you can't have it both ways, Kathi.
Jesus is not one of many created angels. He was a heavenly messenger and in that sense He was called an angel at times but the Bible confirms Him as YHVH. You do know that even men are called angels and angels are called men so to be called an angel does not necessarily make one a created angel.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:42) Oh, and don't forget that the nation of Israel was also “called by the name of YHWH”. Does that make THEM “YHWH Himself”? Kathi, stop looking for specks and ignoring the planks.
The speck is that Israel is called BY the name of YHVH. All of us, if we are truly Christians are called by the name of YHVH. That doesn't mean we have YHVH as our personal name but Jesus does as the 'Root.'Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:48) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:36) Why do you refer to Heb 1:8 as 'a' theos instead of 'the' theos?
Why does scripture refer to the Father as “a god”? Anyone who is “THE god” of anything is, by necessity, “A god”, right?And it is abundantly clear from Heb 1:9 that this particular god, who was mentioned in verse 8, has a god of his own – a god who was powerful enough to place that first god above all others. So even though the definite article is used, we can be sure that verse 8 doesn't talk about “THE God”, for it was “THE God” who anointed that god from verse 8.
And “THE God” doesn't have a god of His own. (Also, it is correctly translated for English as “O god” – as is done elsewhere in many other scriptures.)
The only begotten God would have a God of His own, His Father who is theos would by default be theos to the only begotten theos. That in no way negates the possibility of the eternal existence of both and unity as Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods and Lord of lords.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:48) Let's not forget that fathers naturally have a position higher than their sons.
And let's not forget that gods naturally have a higher position than those they are the god of.So Jesus is lesser than his God and Father on at least two counts. And even though Jesus is “a god”, he is not “The Most High God”………. so make that three counts.
I could go on until I reached about 100 counts – but I think you get the point.
Jehovah is the most High. Jehovah is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, Father and Son!
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