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Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,05:23) Kathi your root and shoot arguements honestly make me laugh.
All I can see is you shooting yourself in the foot. Shoot and foot.
t8,
Perhaps you ought to ask Jesus what He meant when He reveals Himself as the Root and Offspring of David and also revealed as the Root of Jesse and not rely on your own understanding. Jesus mentions this as one of the last things that is revealed about Himself in the Book of Revelations. Isaiah 11 doesn't reveal that the 'Branch' is also the 'Root,' it is revealed by Jesus, Himself.Quote Isaiah 11:
The Root of Jesse1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Quote Romans 15:
8For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”10And again it is said,
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11And again,
“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”12And again Isaiah says,
“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”Quote Rev 5:5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Quote
Rev 22:6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2013,16:20) Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,12:21) I'm asking you (I mean Mike) to explain the verse –
I've explained it to you so many times I've lost count, Ed. I even dedicated an entire thread to this subject – just for you. But you soon bailed on that thread, didn't you?Let's refresh:
Jehovah clearly said that besides Him, there were no ELOHIM, didn't He?
Yet, ARE there other elohim, according to scriptures? YES or NO?
Paul clearly said that for us, there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ.
Yet, Jehovah is also our Lord, isn't He? And Paul also taught us to obey our earthly lords as we would obey Jesus, right?
And Jesus said no one is good but God alone, right?
Yet he called HIMSELF “the good shepherd”, didn't he?
Jehovah is, according to scripture, the “elohim of elohim”, right? Who are these elohim that Jehovah is the elohim OF, if Jehovah is literally the ONLY elohim?
And why does Jehovah Himself call Satan the “god of Ekron”? And how did Jehovah punish all the “gods of Egypt” along with the people of Egypt?
And how is Jehovah the “Most High God” – if there are no lesser gods with which to compare Him?
Is it all starting to come back to you, Ed? Or should you revisit the “Indeed there are many gods” thread again?
Good stuff MIke.People go wrong on this because even though there are lords and gods, and for us there is one God the Father, they think that means that there are not lords and gods.
What it is of course saying is that there is one who is above all. Not 2 or 3, or 4.
Likewise, when Jesus said that no one was good except God, he wasn't saying he was bad or that he was God as some would argue. He simply was saying that his own goodness came from God his Father and that he could not claim to be the originator of the goodness that he had.
I am sure that most would see this if it weren't for the weird doctrines that get in the way of the obvious truth.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 03 2013,17:29) t8,
Perhaps you ought to ask Jesus what He meant when He reveals Himself as the Root and Offspring of David and also revealed as the Root of Jesse and not rely on your own understanding. Jesus mentions this as one of the last things that is revealed about Himself in the Book of Revelations. Isaiah 11 doesn't reveal that the 'Branch' is also the 'Root,' it is revealed by Jesus, Himself.
You must be blind or deaf Kathi. I have explained it clearly a number of times.Being the root and fruit doesn't mean you are God.
If God created all things through Jesus Christ, then he would in that definition be the root. And if Jesus came in the flesh and was born of Mary, then he would be the offspring too.
Don't believe me, then you don't believe this scripture:
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
I have been saying the same thing in different words, t8 but you laugh. The fact is that there is more than one Root of Jesse. Why would you think that the other Root would not be the Father since He made all through another Root? Or who do you think the other root/s is/are?
All I am saying is the root and shoot or froot has no bearing on whether Jesus is God/YHWH or is God's son instead. A non-issue for that subject.
Ruth 4:17
The women living there said, “Naomi has a son!” And they named him Obed. He was the father of Jesse, the father of David.Well, Obed, for one.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,16:03) So who is the other Root, t8?
What is it that you are trying to prove.
Then I might look at this if I find it worth my time.Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,15:18) Hi Mike, The Greek wasn't written in the way the N.W.T. translates it. Furthermore
your 'spin' of another God goes in stark contradiction to Isaiah 44:8…“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there a God beside me? yea,
there is no God; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)You just can't ignore this verse Mike. This verse MUST BE
incorporated into your understanding of Scripture as a whole.
So please explain EXACTLY how it does fit into your understanding?God bless
Ed J
Hi Mike,I wasn't asking you to diminish the meaning of Isaiah 44:8. Instead I was asking
you what specific meaning you attribute to the meaning of “EL-o-heem” in Isa.44:8. (pick a number)1. GOD …………………………. THERE ARE NO OTHER GODS
2. a ruler ………………………. there are other rulers
3. a magistrate ………………. there are other magistrates
4. a mighty one ………………. there are other mighty ones
5. other ?If you don't choose definition #1 for this verse, please tell me why
there would even be a need for this verse in the bible? In other words this verse
(Isaiah 44:8) would carry absolutely NO MEANING – if it is not establishing definition #1.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ April 04 2013,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,16:03) So who is the other Root, t8?
What is it that you are trying to prove.
Then I might look at this if I find it worth my time.
t8,
If you say that Jesus is the Root because all things are made by Him, then realize that there is another Root because the 'Roots' of Jesse is a plural word. I believe this refers to the Father and the Son who are both involved in the creation of Jesse.The 'roots' are the 'root system' of the plant.
The Father and the Son with their Spirit are the YHVH of the stump of Jesse as the eternal unity.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2013,06:42) (4) Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Who here refuses to accept John 1:1 the way it was written, due to a fear that John was proclaiming two different gods?
Gene? Kerwin? Ed? 2B?
Mike and all,Words are sand and not bedrock. What is the bedrock that godly wisdom instructs us to build on.
Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2013,02:55) K Quote Biologically speaking seed are living organisms. The are the beginning stages of a multi-celled organism. so they are not a tree ;but a chemical compound to be used in developing a tree ,the seed is it self a product of the tree ,but not the tree ,right
T,A seed is not an adult tree. It is the fertilized egg that contains an embryonic tree that in the right conditions will grow to be an adult. There are seeds that do not contain embryonic trees. These are unfertilized eggs.
Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,04:02) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2013,08:00) Biologically speaking seed are living organisms. The are the beginning stages of a multi-celled organism. See what I am writing about here.
Do you remember when you were a sperm racing for that egg and the overwhelming feeling you got when you got there first?
T8,Plant seed and human seed do not correspond. A better correspondence to human seed is plant pollen. A plant seed is more like a female egg with some being fertile and others not.
I do not remember my early life.
Or…the seed contains the tree in its earliest form.
The fertilized egg contains the chick in its earliest form.
The fertilized ovum contains the human being in its earliest form.All of the above are true, it just depends on how you look at it in the context.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2013,01:33) Or…the seed contains the tree in its earliest form.
The fertilized egg contains the chick in its earliest form.
The fertilized ovum contains the human being in its earliest form.All of the above are true, it just depends on how you look at it in the context.
LU,Yes!
Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2013,09:32) Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,04:02) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2013,08:00) Biologically speaking seed are living organisms. The are the beginning stages of a multi-celled organism. See what I am writing about here.
Do you remember when you were a sperm racing for that egg and the overwhelming feeling you got when you got there first?
T8,Plant seed and human seed do not correspond. A better correspondence to human seed is plant pollen. A plant seed is more like a female egg with some being fertile and others not.
I do not remember my early life.
Agreed.Quote (Ed J @ April 04 2013,02:06) Hi Mike, I wasn't asking you to diminish the meaning of Isaiah 44:8. Instead I was asking
you what specific meaning you attribute to the meaning of “EL-o-heem” in Isa.44:8. (pick a number)1. GOD …………………………. THERE ARE NO OTHER GODS
2. a ruler ………………………. there are other rulers
3. a magistrate ………………. there are other magistrates
4. a mighty one ………………. there are other mighty ones
5. other ?If you don't choose definition #1 for this verse, please tell me why
there would even be a need for this verse in the bible? In other words this verse
(Isaiah 44:8) would carry absolutely NO MEANING – if it is not establishing definition #1.
Ed, how about “Creator of all things”? Since we are IMAGINING the different things “elohim” could mean, why not also imagine “Creator of all things”?In that way, God could have been speaking LITERALLY in Is 44.
But the earliest known meaning of “el” is “mighty one”, Ed. And since we know God was not saying He was LITERALLY the ONLY “mighty one”, I take His statement to be EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL.
Like Jesus EMPHATICALLY said the Father was the “only true God”. Surely Jesus didn't mean to call himself a “false god”, right?
Or like when he EMPHATICALLY said “only God is good”. Surely he didn't expect us to believe he was really “the BAD shepherd” because of that emphatic statement, right?
Or like when Paul EMPHATICALLY said, “for us, there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ”. Surely Paul didn't mean to imply that the Father was not ALSO our Lord, right?
Ed, Jehovah is the Elohim OF elohim. He is the MOST HIGH Elohim. Neither of these things could be attributed to Jehovah if He was LITERALLY the ONLY elohim in existence.
I have spent literally HOURS and HOURS on this subject with you. It is clear that you will NEVER accept the truth of the many gods and lords, whether in heaven, or on earth, that are taught about in the scriptures.
And that, my friend, is your choice. But don't expect me to waste any more of my time on this subject with you, okay?
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,13:14) ……….realize that there is another Root because the 'Roots' of Jesse is a plural word. I believe this refers to the Father and the Son who are both involved in the creation of Jesse.
Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.Kathi, a Branch will spring up FROM the roots of Jesse, right?
So are you saying that Jesus is the Branch who sprang up from HIMSELF – as one of the two Roots of Jesse?
Do you believe the “Root Jesus” FATHERED/CREATED the “Branch Jesus”?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,15:13) I have been saying the same thing in different words, t8 but you laugh. The fact is that there is more than one Root of Jesse. Why would you think that the other Root would not be the Father since He made all through another Root? Or who do you think the other root/s is/are?
Yes I laugh.
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