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Hi Mike,
You and I are going to have this place for our one on one friendly, respectful discussions.All Heaven Net rules apply.
There is to be no belittling of each other or other members.
This is a place to be an example of brotherly kindness while discussing topics of interest.
I will begin with the first question.
Then Mike must answer that before he can ask only one question of me.
We will only be allowed to ask one question at a time.
The answer of “I don't know” is certainly permissible.
This is not an attack thread nor a debate thread with the intention of gaining a winner and a loser. The intention will be to have a win/win discussion. If we do not come to agreement then it is certainly best to agree to disagree and seek God in all things and move on to another topic. Jumping from one topic before the topic is settled is allowed.
We can close this thread by mutual agreement.
Mike,
Can you show me a scripture that tells us that the only begotten Son did not exist before He was begotten before the ages?Kathi
Hi Kathi,
Yes. Any scripture that speaks of Jesus' begetting, his origin, his creation, or his being born tells us that he did not exist from eternity.
Anyone from the history of creation who has ever been brought forth has also been subject to a time when they did not exist…………..hence, the bringing forth part. Also consider that YHWH is the ONLY One in scripture said to have been FROM eternity, and is therefore the ONLY One in scripture who was never brought forth at any time.
Kathi, do YOU know of a scripture that teaches, or even implies that this was not the case with Jesus?
Mike,
Yes, the word was God, in the beginning and we know that the 'word' was the Son who was with the Father in the beginning.
Mike, can you show me a verse that says the first of it's kind is also considered the firstborn of that kind? 'Kind' meaning nature.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,20:20)
we know that the 'word' was the Son who was with the Father in the beginning.
Yes Kathi, Jesus is the SON of God. And the words “SON OF” further support my original point. Everyone in the history of creation who BECAME a son has also been subject to a time when he didn't exist BEFORE he was BROUGHT FORTH as a son. There is NO scripture at all that even implies this would have been different with Jesus. Jesus is said to have an ORIGIN, while his God is said to be FROM eternity.Furthermore, we agree that the Father is the God mentioned in John 1:1 b, and we also agree that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the God mentioned in 1:1b, because Jesus cannot BE the God he was WITH in John 1:1. We agree that there is one unbegotten God, and the begotten god He brought forth.
Kathi, this is where we are: I understand the words “brought forth”, “begotten”, “born”, “origin”, “first of His works”, “beginning”, “son of”, and “of creation” to clearly teach that Jesus had a beginning, and therefore was subject to a time when he didn't exist – because that's the cold, hard truth of every other thing God brought forth. There is no scripture that teaches us it was different in the case of Jesus, and so I have no reason whatsoever to imagine that it was.
You, on the other hand, can show no scripture that even implies, let alone teaches, that Jesus is “from eternity” like the One who brought him forth as the first of His works. You have put it in your head that Jesus must be exactly like the God who created him in everyway, even calling them both “Almighty”, (which is a word that applies to ONLY the mightiest OF the mighty) – and that doesn't add up to the scriptures that tell of the God OF Jesus GIVING him power, or knowing things he doesn't know, or having to place his enemies at his feet so that he can destroy them, etc.
You have preached about the “begotten god” and the “unbegotten God”. Think it out Kathi…………if you now want to say Jesus didn't have a beginning, but was “inside” his God from eternity as a cognizant being, then why go to the lengths you do to distinguish one as begotten and the other has unbegotten – when it is clear that you believe in TWO Gods, equal in every way?
Kathi, I don't see in what way John 1:1 says “Jesus is from eternity”. So I will ask my (slightly reworded for context) question again, and if you want to use 1:1 for your answer, please spell out for me how that scripture CLEARLY and without question teaches that Jesus was from eternity.
Kathi, do YOU know of a scripture that teaches, or even implies that Jesus existed eternally before he was brought forth?
As far as your question, I don't understand it. Please rephrase it or give me a “for instance”, because I seriously don't know what you're asking.
And since I had to ask my same question again because it hasn't been sufficiently answered, you rephrasing yours will keep us equal in the question department.
(Note #1: You can address any point in my post that you want to, but are only REQUIRED to answer the one bolded question.)
(Note#2: Before you jump on the “I answered Mike but he just doesn't like the answer” bandwagon, you seriously need to show how your scripture teaches what you claim it does in order for it to actually ANSWER my question.)
peace to you my friend,
mikeDear Mike,
Let's take a slight time out here to clarify our rules. I think that we should number our questions and answers so that we can clearly see that we are each getting in a question after an answer and label it something like “Kathi's question #2 to Mike, Kathi's answer to Mike's #2 question”. Also, there are likely going to be many times that one of us is not satisfied with the other's answer and that is where our next question would be used, to challenge that answer if you want…but you need to answer the last question put to you before you can challenge that answer. If you need the question restated because you do not understand then you certainly may ask for that before you answer it but you can't expect to challenge an answer until you have answered the question put to you.I am going to assume that you would agree to that, so I will restate my question #2 in the next post in hopes that you will better understand it and then after you answer it, I will answer your challenge question #2 if you still want me to, just repeat your last post. Ok?
Blessings to you,
KathiOk Mike,
My original question #2:Mike, can you show me a verse that says the first of it's kind is also considered the firstborn of that kind? 'Kind' meaning nature.
My question #2 to Mike, restated for better understanding, will be asked in two questions:
Kathi's question #2 to Mike:
Do you agree that the only begotten Son was a literal offspring of God the Father and by the default meaning of the word 'firstborn,' He holds that title, i.e. the first offspring born from their parent/parents, having the same nature as their parent/parents is the default meaning of the one who holds the title 'firstborn?'Kathi
Hi Kathi,
You need to work on your question wording, girl!
It took a while, but I figured this one out finally. 
YES, Jesus is the LITERAL offspring and the LITERAL firstborn of God Himself.
YES, I agree that the default meaning of firstborn is “the one born first”, and that the default meaning always applies unless there are clear scriptural words or teachings indicating that it doesn't.
(Kathi, I don't agree that I should be penalized a question because you didn't accurately or directly answer it the first time. For example, I could have said “NO” to these above questions, or I could have answered in a non-specific, divertive way, causing you to lose questions by restating your previous ones in a different form just to get the direct and accurate answer I should have given the first time. My question asked for a scripture, which you didn't give, although I assumed you meant John 1:1. But even so, the words you posted as an answer didn't say anything at all about Jesus being from eternity, so why should I keep answering more of your questions when you didn't actually answer mine?)
But moving on…………….I've answered yours, so please DIRECTLY answer mine WITH A SCRIPTURE that actually says Jesus is from eternity. (Understand that it doesn't have to have the words “Jesus is from eternity”, but the teaching must be clear enough that there is no doubt this is what is being taught.)
peace,
mikeHi Mike,
Thanks for your answer. I noticed that you did not include all of the default definition that I suggested…the part about the offspring having the same nature as the parent/parents. I will assume that you also agree to that since you didn't say otherwise.Here is another answer to your question #2 to me:
Your question #2:
But moving on…………….I've answered yours, so please DIRECTLY answer mine WITH A SCRIPTURE that actually says Jesus is from eternity. (Understand that it doesn't have to have the words “Jesus is from eternity”, but the teaching must be clear enough that there is no doubt this is what is being taught.)As you have understood and declared many times that Prov 8 is talking about the Son of God, Jesus, this bolded verse clearly tells you that before the works of the LORD, the Son was possessed by Him, hence the Son was not one of His 'works' as a creation but He was BEFORE His 'works' and before creation was eternity. This is obvious that the Son was with God the Father even before the beginning of time…during eternity.
[]Prov 8:22“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.[/]23“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.24“When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.25“Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;26While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.My question #3 to Mike:
As you agree that the only begotten Son of God is a literal offspring and one of the same nature of His Father, is there any scripture that clearly shows that any other heavenly being is a literal offspring of the Father or the Son and one of the same nature as the Father and Son are?BTW, John 1:1 definitely states that the 'word' was in the beginning with the God and then John 1 goes on to say that the beginning was before all things were made by the 'word.' The time before creation was eternity…the Son was with God during eternity. And now the Prov 8 passage tells us that God possessed Him before His works of old. He was not one of His works or He would not have been 'possessed' before His works.
Fondly,
KathiHi Kathi,
Here's NETNotes about Proverbs 8:22…………..
The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish”.
And here's the Greek:
The Lord created me the beginning of his ways for his works. Before the eon he founded me in the beginning, before making the earth. SourceI have no problem that Christ was created before the earth………..or any other creation. But this scripture does not say Jesus was “possessed” or “created” from eternity. We have already discussed the Greek word “aion”, which some translate as “eternity”. This can not be the case, for Jesus uses this word when he says he will be with us until the END of “aion”. Eternity has no END, so “aion” can not mean “eternity”, although many translators who don't like the thought of Jesus having a beginning use “everlasting” or “eternity” in verse 23.
Young was well aware of this dilemma, and so uses the word “age” for “aion”. His translation of 8:23 says:
From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.So you have yet to post a scripture that clearly teaches Jesus was from eternity, but instead have posted yet another one that speaks of him being created a long time ago. My first question still stands.
Quote My question #3 to Mike:
As you agree that the only begotten Son of God is a literal offspring and one of the same nature of His Father, is there any scripture that clearly shows that any other heavenly being is a literal offspring of the Father or the Son and one of the same nature as the Father and Son are?
I didn't agree to anything about nature, because I don't know what “nature” would mean in regards to our Creator. Was Jesus SPIRITUAL in nature when he was begotten? Yes. But I don't think “from eternity” can be classified as a “nature” if scriptures only list One who is from eternity, and all others as being created. You speak of Jesus having a “divine nature”, but that can't be equated to “from eternity”, since we also have the chance to participate in this “divine nature”…………and we are not “from eternity”. So what exactly does it mean to say we will participate in divine nature? Does it mean we will be spirits? Powerful? Wise? See, I don't know exactly what “divine nature” implies in regards to God Almighty………do you?Kathi, if God wanted to, He could beget a second Son today – the same exact way He begot Jesus. But just because this “second son” was begotten directly from God today does not mean this “second son” has existed already from eternity. Do you see that? Just because Jesus was brought forth FROM a Being that is from eternity does not mean that he is also from eternity. Being “brought forth” puts a damper on the whole “from eternity” thing if you ask me.
Nevertheless, without any clear scripture saying Jesus was from eternity, I have to stick with the default understanding that if someone is ever brought forth, it means there was also a time when that someone did not exist.
peace to you my friend,
mikeHi Mike,
Thanks for your thoughts…we have so much we could go on and on about. This is good!
Regarding your NET notes, are you prepared to say that God was without wisdom at one point? The Almighty God…without wisdom? Whether or not the word in Prov 8:22 is create, I'm sure that it does not intend to imply that the Almighty God did not have wisdom. On the other hand, it could imply that He began to make use of the wisdom that He always had. Maybe a word picture can help…picture a college professor, who contains great knowledge, understanding and wisdom about a subject…he comes to the head of the classroom on the first day of class and just stands there without saying anything for the first 10 minutes of the class…just looking around and tossing his chalk up and down. Then after 10 minutes or so, he goes to the chalkboard and writes a most profound piece of wisdom that he has gained in all of his years from studying the subject…so profound that all of his students take note and recall that one particular piece of wisdom for years to come. Do you see the difference between the first 10 minutes with that piece of wisdom and the latter part of the class when that piece of wisdom was created (figuratively) as a note on the chalkboard? The wisdom was there within the prof. the whole class period and beforehand but only after 10 minutes into class was that wisdom established into existence and put to work, serving the professor and his students. According to the class period, the wisdom that was within the professor during the first 10 minutes, was hidden from the students and according to them, it did not exist. After that when it was written on the chalkboard, the wisdom had an existence and potential to empower others; giving the prof. value and make him worthy of his pay.
In the light of that understanding, we can see how God had wisdom from eternity and at some point, put that wisdom to use in the act of creation. In that way, God established/created His wisdom that He had hidden within Him all along. Wisdom is useful if it is put to use, not just lying dormant within the person. Making use of the wisdom was the beginning of the act of creation. Understand?
The wisdom of Prov. 8 was not 'created' in the sense that it did not exist at one point, but was at one point put to work in the act of creation. The Son always existed within the Father, as I understand, just like wisdom was always within the Father, and then was brought forth to serve Him as the first step towards creation.
So, I believe that Prov. 8:22 does speak of the eternal existence of the Son…since He is compared to wisdom which we should know always existed in the all sufficient Deity. The wisdom that was hidden within…came forth to serve. The word the septuagint uses for 'create' here is without a doubt meant in the figurative sense:
2936 ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was “not there before” (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin (“found”), especially what is habitable or useful.
What was always within, was brought forth/made useful in the act of creation. The Son was always within the Father and then brought forth to minister to the Father in the act and care of creation.
Col 2:1-3
For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
NASU22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
So, I hope that helps you see what I am understanding Mike.
My question #4 to Mike:
Can you show me any scripture that proves that God did not eternally have wisdom?Thank you Mike for discussing,
KathiHi Kathi,
Why do you keep asking more and more questions when you haven't been able to answer my first one yet?
Here it is again – from my first post on this thread:
Anyone from the history of creation who has ever been brought forth has also been subject to a time when they did not exist…………..hence, the bringing forth part. Also consider that YHWH is the ONLY One in scripture said to have been FROM eternity, and is therefore the ONLY One in scripture who was never brought forth at any time.
Kathi, do YOU know of a scripture that teaches, or even implies that this was not the case with Jesus?
You have tried John 1 and Proverbs 8. Neither of them contain enough of the clear information required to override the default understanding that any being who has ever been brought forth has also been subject to a time when they didn't exist.
Kathi, I totally understand what you're saying, but you can't support your claim scripturally. To me this discussion is like when the non-preexistence people say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had “as a thought in God's head” before the creation of the world. They can make the claim, but there is no scripture to support that claim. And what's more, there are the very clear words of Jesus saying “the glory I HAD” that they must overcome somehow.
Your claim is very similar in these respects. First, you must show a scripture that CLEARLY supports your claim. Second, you must overcome the very clear scriptures that call Jesus a “son”, or speak of his “origin”, or say that he is the “firstborn”, or “begotten”, or “created”, like Proverbs 8:22 says.
Because in my mind, every one of these speak of a time when Jesus did not exist – simply by speaking of a time when he was brought forth. This is the default understanding of anyone who was ever brought forth, and you have shown no scripture to make me think otherwise.
Kathi, if Jesus was as eternal as his God then death would have NEVER had any mastery over him. But Paul says that death NO LONGER has mastery over him. Could you imagine reading that same statement in reference to Jehovah?
Also consider again that prayer in Acts 4:
And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM……………while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”God is the ONE who made the heavens and the earth and ALL that is in them. That “ALL” would include His Son Jesus, because it's clear from the last line of the prayer that Jesus is who they prayed THROUGH, and not who they prayed TO. And that proves that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the God they prayed TO, and therefore someone OTHER THAN the ONE who created ALL. And that can only mean that Jesus is one of the “ALL” things that was created by the ONE who created “ALL”.
Kathi, unless you can actually answer my first point by showing a scripture that says Jesus has always existed, or that God at some time “pulled him out from inside of Him”, this discussion will go nowhere.
peace,
mikeHi Mike,
you said:
Quote Why do you keep asking more and more questions when you haven't been able to answer my first one yet? I have attempted to answer all your bolded questions. Truthfully, I am not satisfied with any of your answers to my bolded questions but at least I am realizing that you are making an attempt. Feel free to stay on one topic with your questions if you want but you do need to attempt to answer mine after I attempt to answer yours. Lighten up
My question #4 to Mike:
Can you show me any scripture that proves that God did not eternally have wisdom?Hi Kathi,
I don't mean to be hard-headed, but I'll answer another question from you if and when I get an adequate answer to my very first question.
I'm looking for a scripture that MAKES IT CRYSTAL CLEAR that Jesus existed from eternity.
If there are none, then I have no scriptural reason to assume that Jesus being created means anything other than there was also a time when he wasn't.
As far as your “wisdom” point, you haven't carried it all the way through. I agree that Jesus is poetically referred to as “the wisdom of God”, and was God's first creation.
I don't agree that Jesus is LITERALLY the wisdom of God, for then without Jesus, God would be sort of an idiot, right? So any time Jesus is asking God for something, God would be like, “Uh…………..duh…………..I'm not sure because YOU'RE my wisdom. Why are you asking me?”
I know the analogy is stupid, but do you get my point?
mike
Hi Kathi,
I also have a question # 2, that I'll ask while awaiting the inevitable answer of “No Mike, there isn't a scripture that CLEARLY teaches us that Jesus has always existed” to my question #1.
Question #2 to Kathi:
Kathi, God could easily beget another Son the exact same way He begot Jesus. If God did beget another Son today, would that Son have existed from eternity just because the God who begot him is from eternity?mike
Mike,
Do you realize that on one post you want a scripture that makes it crystal clear that show the Son was from eternity and in another post you want me to show you that He ALWAYS existed. Those are two different questions. I have answered you regarding the Son being from eternity with both John 1 and Prov 8. Both of those chapters makes it crystal clear that the Son was in existence BEFORE creation which btw, is before time and thus during eternity. You then ask for scripture that proves that He ALWAYS existed and I believe that Him, having the exact divine nature as the Father and being called Jehovah demonstrate an eternal existence as a Son. You admitted that you don't know if having a divine nature would require an eternal existence but that you suppose it wouldn't because believers will be partakers of the divine nature. So, just because you do not know what divine nature would be, you can't negate that it would require an eternal existence. Saints are partakers of divine nature, the communicable elements of the divine nature that is…not the incommunicable elements. Saints won't be within other believers like the Father and the Son dwell in all believers, for example. The will have the fruit of the spirit and eternal life and other things that can be given but not the incommunicable things of God. Saints can't be given an eternal past existence, that is out of the question…too late for that Saints began with a beginning in time with human nature and therefore did not eternally exist. No one with human nature, as their original nature, always existed. The Son did not have a human nature as His original nature and so you can't force the same statement on His begettal by saying that anyone that has been begotten at one time did not exist before that. That is really an irrational argument that you have going there. You can't equate the begettal of the Son with the begettal of a human because the parent of the Son was eternal and the parent of the human was not. Two completely different natures are here represented. The Son was begotten as an offspring with the nature of His Father which must be eternal or He would not have the same nature as His Father. The Son is not just a mere partaker of the divine nature, as believers are who had a different nature previous to becoming a partaker of the divine nature. The Son was always divine in nature and thus eternally existent in some form and then at one point before creation, He was begotten/born to work alongside the Father. As far as my question to you about showing me a verse that says that the Father was ever without wisdom…you inadvertently answered it as the Father was never without wisdom. He was never without wisdom because of His nature as God. So thanks for at least answering it inadvertently.
So now, I have shown you that I have made it crystal clear that the Son existed before time and creation and thus during eternity. I have also given reason for an eternal existence due to His nature as divine and exactly representing the Father's nature.
Now according to your next question, If God beget another Son today, that Son would have existed in some manner from eternity also because he would also have the nature of God which is eternal.
Question #5 to Mike,
Mike, If men can only kill the body and not the spirit, do you see how only the flesh body of the Son died and not His spirit but His spirit continued living and therefore the divine part of Jesus did not die?Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
I have answered you regarding the Son being from eternity with both John 1 and Prov 8.
John 1 makes it clear that Jesus is the SON OF God. Any son who has EVER been begotten was also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. That is the law of nature that God Himself created. Also, “in the beginning” is used many times in scripture for many different beginnings. For example, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. By your reasoning, the earth is also “from eternity”, since it was created (as in PAST TENSE) “in the beginning”. The “in the beginning” mentioned in John 1 is obviously referring to the time AFTER Jesus was created as the first of God's works and the firstborn of all creation, but BEFORE anything else was created through him.John 1 does not in ANY way say that Jesus is from eternity, and so I exclude this as an “answer” to my first question, because it does not PROVE what you claim it does.
Proverbs 8 speaks of the first thing God CREATED. Something that is CREATED is also subject to a time when it DIDN'T exist. Again, that is the law of nature that God Himself created. You have tried NETNote's point about God always having wisdom, and I have solidly rebutted it. If Jesus is LITERALLY the wisdom of God, then God is unwise unless Jesus is feeding Him the answers. Jesus is POETICALLY the wisdom of God, and not literally.
So Proverbs 8 turned out to be yet another scripture that speaks of the CREATION of Jesus, and since it DOES SAY that wisdom was CREATED AS THE FIRST OF GOD'S WORKS, any rationalization you make about God's wisdom being eternal is simply a rationalization, and not scriptural PROOF that Jesus is from eternity. So I also exclude this as an “answer” to my first question, for it also does not PROVE what you claim it does.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
I believe that Him, having the exact divine nature as the Father and being called Jehovah demonstrate an eternal existence as a Son.
I'm not asking for what YOU believe here, Kathi. YOU believe that there are TWO Gods we should worship – against the direct commands of God and the teaching of His Son. So what YOU believe does not constitute PROOF of anything scriptural. There is no scripture that CLEARLY shows Jesus Christ being called “Jehovah”, yet you claim it to be the truth WITHOUT scriptural support. So the scripturally unsupported things that YOU believe really have no bearing as an answer to my question that asks for SCRIPTURAL PROOF, or at the very least, scriptural clarity.Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
You admitted that you don't know if having a divine nature would require an eternal existence but that you suppose it wouldn't because believers will be partakers of the divine nature.
And you DO know all about it? I don't believe that “from eternity” has anything at all to do with the divine nature that Jesus has, or that some of us will partake in. Just because one is created by One who is from eternity does not mean the one created is also from eternity. Otherwise you could say the same about Adam, who was created by an eternal God.And yes, the way God brought Jesus forth is obviously different than the way God brought Adam forth – and Jesus is obviously much different than Adam. But “different” is really all we know about it. They are both creations of an eternal God, so to claim that one of them must be from eternity just because the God who created him is from eternity is wishful thinking on your part, and scripturally unfounded.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
As far as my question to you about showing me a verse that says that the Father was ever without wisdom…you inadvertently answered it as the Father was never without wisdom. He was never without wisdom because of His nature as God. So thanks for at least answering it inadvertently.
But you didn't respond to MY point about it, did you? Kathi, do you think the Father is without wisdom if Jesus is not around? How could it be the Father's will, and not Jesus' will that was done, if the Father without Jesus isn't even wise enough to decide what His will is?Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
So now, I have shown you that I have made it crystal clear that the Son existed before time and creation and thus during eternity.
No, you actually haven't. I have rebutted both John 1 and Proverbs 8. If you want to keep claiming them as the proof I was asking for in my first question, you must solidly rebut the points I made to exclude them.Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2011,00:04)
Question #5 to Mike,
Mike, If men can only kill the body and not the spirit, do you see how only the flesh body of the Son died and not His spirit but His spirit continued living and therefore the divine part of Jesus did not die?
Jesus died the same exact way any human being ever died. If the way he died left him somehow alive, then Abraham is also still alive. Do you believe this? Jesus hints that he is. And if so, then do you believe that Abraham must also have divine nature to be able to live eternally? (For I'm pretty sure that God will not send the only human he called “friend” into destruction, which means Abraham will live forever.)Now what's the difference between Jesus and Abraham (concerning our current discussion only)? They were both created by an eternal God. Both of their spirits live on forever. In fact, the only major difference is YOUR unfounded beliefs that “divine nature” equals “from eternity”. But being CREATED and BEGOTTEN and BORN speak of a time when Jesus was not. Those are the words God chose to use in referrence to His SON (another word that speaks of a time when he was not). So unless you can either debunk my rebuttals to John 1 and Proverbs 8; or find another scripture that CLEARLY teaches Jesus is from eternity, then you should fess up and answer my first question with a “NO”.
peace and love to you ,
mikeHi Mike,
I've been busy with a Science fair and a wedding and typical end of the school year stuff. I'm sure you know what I meanyou said in your above post:
Quote John 1 makes it clear that Jesus is the SON OF God. Any son who has EVER been begotten was also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. That is the law of nature that God Himself created. You confuse the supernatural Son who is not bound by the laws of nature with those that are bound by the laws of nature. You don't have evidence of any other son who was ever begotten, being found hundreds of years later in the womb of a virgin, do you? So there goes your 'laws of nature' argument…you can't apply that one to the only begotten Son of God, He defies the law of nature.
Quote Also, “in the beginning” is used many times in scripture for many different beginnings. For example, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. By your reasoning, the earth is also “from eternity”, since it was created (as in PAST TENSE) “in the beginning”. Well, yes, before the beginning of creation there was no finite age, only an eternal age…so creation came from an eternal age but did not eternally exist.
Quote The “in the beginning” mentioned in John 1 is obviously referring to the time AFTER Jesus was created as the first of God's works and the firstborn of all creation, but BEFORE anything else was created through him. 'Created' doesn't always mean that 'such and such' did not exist beforehand. It may just mean that something changed in some way, like what was within and maybe dormant, came out and became active, i.e. wisdom begotten or even created. Consider this verse which uses the same word you have found in the septuagint for Prov 8:22 and is translated at times as 'created/create.'
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
As you realize, the speaker has had an unclean heart before he hopes to get a clean heart 'created' in him. The heart of the man already exists here before a clean heart is created.All that was created through the Son was made out of nothing but the will of God and did not exist beforehand, not like wisdom in Prov 8:22. Wisdom is not a tangible, seen thing, not something that can be created. Proverbs has to do with the Son who also has the wisdom of God along with His Father, I think that Prov 8:22 is just explaining that the wisdom of God, as it was eternally within the Son, was 'called into action' as the first step towards the creation of all things in heaven and on earth. The Son is the firstborn of God and put over all creation, which would likely be why He is called the 'Firstborn over all creation.”
Quote John 1 does not in ANY way say that Jesus is from eternity, and so I exclude this as an “answer” to my first question, because it does not PROVE what you claim it does. You know that the Son was begotten before the ages, well, to be begotten BEFORE the ages, places His existence during eternity. Why isn't that obvious?
Today I was reading some historical writings and came across apostolic writings that made it clear that the Son was God as the Son of God and that He was to be worshipped along with the Father and that He was from everlasting with the Father. I'll post just one of the many here, this was written by Simon Peter, Cephas, and is from the ancient Syriac writings. You might recall that it was Peter that wrote:
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:I think that the comma is in the right place according to these things that Peter wrote here:
Men, people of Rome, saints of all Italy, hear ye that which I say to you. This day I preach and proclaim Jesus the Son of God, who came down from heaven, and became man, and was with us as one of ourselves, and wrought marvellous mighty-works and signs and wonders before us, and before all the Jews that are in the land of Palestine. And you yourselves also heard of those things which He did: because they came to Him from other countries also, on account of the fame of His healing and the report of the marvellous help He gave;(7) and whosoever drew near to Him was healed by His word. And, inasmuch as He was God, at the same time that He healed He also forgave sins: for His healing, which was open to view, bore witness of His hidden forgiveness, that it was real and trustworthy. For this Jesus did the prophets announce in their mysterious sayings, as they were looking forward to see Him and to hear His word: Him who was with His Father from eternity and from everlasting; God, who was hidden in the height, and appeared in the depth; the glorious Son, who was from His Progenitor, and is to be glorified, together with His Father, and His divine Spirit, and the terrible power of His dominion. And He was crucified of His own will by the hands of sinners, and was taken up to His Father, even as I and my companions saw. And He is about to come again, in His own glory and that of His holy angels, even as we heard Him say to us. For we cannot say anything which was not heard by us from Him, neither do we write in the book of His Gospel anything which He Himself did not say to us: because this word is spoken in order that the mouth of liars may be shut, in the day when men shall give an account of idle words at the place of judgment.
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
found here: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-146So, that which Peter wrote as a historical writing was the same that wrote 2 Peter 1:1 and shows you where the comma should be. I can show you other historical writings and just might do that in the next post, fyi.
Quote But you didn't respond to MY point about it, did you? Kathi, do you think the Father is without wisdom if Jesus is not around? How could it be the Father's will, and not Jesus' will that was done, if the Father without Jesus isn't even wise enough to decide what His will is?
I agree that the Father was never without wisdom of God and I also believe that the wisdom of God is not something that is created like man is created or angels…out of nothing, so your idea about the Son being 'created' because of what Prov 8:22 is certainly not something that proves that the Son did not exist beforehand, as I have pointed out regarding the word 'create' above as seen in Psalms 51:10.Therefore, just because the word 'create' MIGHT be used, which is not conclusive in the majority of translations btw, does not mean that He did not exist beforehand. Sorry.
I will post some of the other historical writings that I found today that throws a big kink in your understanding in the next post.
Now regarding your answer to my question:
Quote Question #5 to Mike,
Mike, If men can only kill the body and not the spirit, do you see how only the flesh body of the Son died and not His spirit but His spirit continued living and therefore the divine part of Jesus did not die?Quote Jesus died the same exact way any human being ever died. If the way he died left him somehow alive, then Abraham is also still alive. Yes Abraham is still alive…the spirit does not die when the body dies.
Matt 22:32
'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”Quote Now what's the difference between Jesus and Abraham (concerning our current discussion only)? They were both created by an eternal God. Both of their spirits live on forever. In fact, the only major difference is YOUR unfounded beliefs that “divine nature” equals “from eternity”. But being CREATED and BEGOTTEN and BORN speak of a time when Jesus was not. Those are the words God chose to use in referrence to His SON (another word that speaks of a time when he was not). So unless you can either debunk my rebuttals to John 1 and Proverbs 8; or find another scripture that CLEARLY teaches Jesus is from eternity, then you should fess up and answer my first question with a “NO”. The difference between Jesus and Abraham was this, Jesus had a pre-existent divine spirit within Him and Abraham did not have a pre-existent divine spirit within him. The pre-existent divine spirit that was within Jesus was the deity part of Jesus that did not die…God, as the Son, did not die. Do you understand now?
In conclusion, I have debunked your rebuttals to John 1 and Proverbs 8. My answer stands that John 1 and Proverbs 8 speak of an eternal existence for the Son.
My next question to you is:
In the above writings from the ancient historical Syriac writings of Simon Cephas (Peter), does the writer, Peter, specifically state that the Son is God, the Son of God and that the Father and the Son are both from everlasting and both to be worshipped? Yes or no?Love,
KathiHi Mike,
Here is an ancient, historical writing of Addaeus, an apostle of Christ who witnessed Christ performing His miracles first hand.Addaeus said: I will not hold my peace from declaring this; since for this very purpose was I sent hither, that I might speak to and teach every one who is willing to believe, even as thou. Assemble me tomorrow all the city, and I will sow in it the word of life by the preaching which I will address to you-about the coming of Christ, in what manner it was; and about Him that sent Him, why and how He sent Him; and about His power and His wonderful works; and about the glorious mysteries of His coming, which He spake of in the world; and about the unerring truth(4) of His preaching; and how and for what cause He abused Himself, and humbled. His exalted Godhead by the manhood which He took, and was crucified, and descended to the place of the dead, and broke through the enclosure(5) which had never been broken through before, and gave life to the dead by being slain Himself, and descended alone, and ascended with many to His glorious Father, with whom He had been from eternity in one exalted Godhead…
…Flee, then, from things made and created, as I said to you, which are only called gods in name, whilst they are not gods in their nature; and draw near to this Being, who in His nature is God from everlasting and from eternity, and is not something made, like your idols, nor is He a creature and a work of art, like those images in which ye glory. Because, although this(23) Being put on a body, yet is He God with His Father. For the works of creation, which trembled when He was slain and were dismayed at His suffering of death,-these bear witness that He is Himself God the Creator. For it was not on account of a man that the earth trembled,(24) but on account of Him who established the earth upon the waters; nor was it on account of a man that the sun grew dark in the heavens, but on account of Him who made the great lights; nor Was it for a man that the just and righteous were restored to life again, but for Him who had granted power over death from the beginning; nor was it for a man that the veil of the temple of the Jews was rent from the top to the bottom, but for Him who said to them, “Lo, your house is left desolate.” For, lo! unless those who crucified Him had known that He was the Son of God, they would not have had to proclaim(25) the desolation(26) of their city, nor would they have brought down Woe! upon themselves.(27) For, even if they had wished to make light of this confession,(28) the fearful convulsions which took place at that time would not have suffered them to do so. For lo! some even of the children of the crucifiers are become at this day preachers and evangelists, along with my fellow-apostles, in all the land of Palestine, and among the Samaritans, and in all the country of the Philistines. The idols also of paganism are despised, and the cross of Christ is honoured, and all nations and creatures confess God who became man.
If, therefore, while Jesus our Lord was on earth ye would have believed in Him that He is the Son of God, and before ye had heard the word of His preaching would have confessed Him that He is God; now that He is ascended to His Father, and ye have seen the signs and the wonders which are done in His name, and have heard with your own ears the word of His Gospel, let no one of you doubt in his mind-so that the promise of His blessing which He sent to you may be fulfilled(29) towards you: Blessed are ye that have believed in me, not having seen me; and, because ye have so believed in me, the town(30) in which ye dwell shall be blessed, and the enemy shall not prevail against it for ever.(31) Turn not away, therefore, from his faith: for, lo! ye have heard and seen what things bear witness to His faith-showing that He is the adorable Son, and is the glorious God, and is the victorious King, and is the mighty Power; and through faith in Him a man is able to acquire the eyes of a true mind,(32) and to understand that, whosoever worshippeth creatures, the wrath of justice will overtake him.
Found here: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-143
Interesting, huh?
KathiAnother…from the ancient Syriac writings, the teachings of the apostle, (interesting to read the whole thing from the link below, it talks about gathering on Sunday among other things):
And, when they heard these things from the Disciples, those sons of the priests, all of them alike, cried out before the whole company of the apostles: We confess and believe in Christ who was crucified, and we confess that He is from everlasting the Son of God; and those who dared to crucify Him do we renounce. For even the priests of the people in secret confess Christ; but, for the sake of the headship among the people which they love, they are not willing to confess openly; and they have forgotten that which is written:(48) “Of knowledge is He the Lord, and before Him avail not crafty devices.”
found here: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-145
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